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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:37 pm 


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From the returns the quasi-total absence of smearing already makes oled delicious: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/lg/ec9300
And that's an 'old' model here.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:52 pm 


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sorry to derail the thread for a little question: I'm not sure if I understand RTING's approach on their motion rating. The EC9300 scores a near perfect 9.9, although the motion resolution (see HDTVtest.co.uk) is not better than on your average LCD. I've seen the EC9300 live and without it's motion interpolation function a moving 1080p 1px stripe pattern is nothing more than a solid grey area and even with them it's far from resolving a full HD resolution on moving images.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:07 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
sorry to derail the thread for a little question: I'm not sure if I understand RTING's approach on their motion rating. The EC9300 scores a near perfect 9.9, although the motion resolution (see HDTVtest.co.uk) is not better than on your average LCD. I've seen the EC9300 live and without it's motion interpolation function a moving 1080p 1px stripe pattern is nothing more than a solid grey area and even with them it's far from resolving a full HD resolution on moving images.
Yeah, if you take a look at its oled on/off time diagram, you can see that it's operating like a typical LCD so it's definitely not good with motion without using tricks like interpolation. I'm eagerly waiting for a model which works just like a CRT (mimicing a beam going from left to right, top to bottom) because that should be possible to implement with OLED, assuming you can get high enough temporal intensity out of each led.


Last edited by marqs on Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:12 pm 


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Yeah I got the outstanding pixel response part but not the motion one.
According to CNET all interpolation modes top at 600 lines: http://www.cnet.com/products/lg-55ec9300/2/
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:15 am 


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Xyga wrote:
From the returns the quasi-total absence of smearing already makes oled delicious: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/lg/ec9300
And that's an 'old' model here.


Oh god we're back to plasma's ABL turning a white screen gray, one of my many complaints RE plasma sets. And does the yellow tinge happen to all OLEDs? Because that's more disgusting than a TN's color washout.

Always one step forward, two steps back in the display technology world, huh?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:08 am 


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Come on, the pluses are HUGE pluses, all review websites who tested LG oled sets each in their own way expressed how they think that technology is as a whole superior to lcd, even the current high-end Sony and Samsung don't compare.
But those LG's are flawed, clumsy, early produced sets, like the one reviewed by rtings, also well that's LG you know...LG. :?
Wait until other manufacturers enter the oled race (Samsung and Panasonic will be back in the race) and in a few years for sure we'll see amazing sets.
We need those anyway, 0.3ms pixel response time = bright future.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:27 pm 


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I'm very interested in buying one of these. All the Micomsoft products I've owned have had pretty major flaws with 15khz stuff. Sorry if you've discussed it earlier on in the thread, but are you anticipating any issues with the Sega Saturn's mega super-duper hi-res mode (720X480i) beyond the relatively brief switch from 240p?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:12 pm 


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Das Muel wrote:
I'm very interested in buying one of these. All the Micomsoft products I've owned have had pretty major flaws with 15khz stuff. Sorry if you've discussed it earlier on in the thread, but are you anticipating any issues with the Sega Saturn's mega super-duper hi-res mode (720X480i) beyond the relatively brief switch from 240p?
Based on this, Saturn Hi-Vision modes (352x480 and 704x480) display 561 lines per frame instead of the usual 525 as in 31kHz and interlaced 15kHz. It will pass digitization and linedoubling fine, but the end result is still 561 lines which is a number that only computer monitors, not too many TVs, will accept.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:20 pm 


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If I manage to get hold of one I'd be using it primarily with a Trinitron PC CRT monitor via an HDMI-VGA adapter, so I should imagine that'd work out okay. Any news on the initial limited release? I'd definitely give one a whirl for $150.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:27 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
Oh god we're back to plasma's ABL turning a white screen gray, one of my many complaints RE plasma sets. And does the yellow tinge happen to all OLEDs? Because that's more disgusting than a TN's color washout.

Always one step forward, two steps back in the display technology world, huh?


Panasonic launched their TX-65CZ950 OLED TV at IFA 2015 the other week. Should be an improvement from the LG 65EG9600 with a dimple free outer glass layer and different processing! However, I'm not expecting it to be gaming friendly. :?

Xyga wrote:
Come on, the pluses are HUGE pluses, all review websites who tested LG oled sets each in their own way expressed how they think that technology is as a whole superior to lcd, even the current high-end Sony and Samsung don't compare.
But those LG's are flawed, clumsy, early produced sets, like the one reviewed by rtings, also well that's LG you know...LG. :?
Wait until other manufacturers enter the oled race (Samsung and Panasonic will be back in the race) and in a few years for sure we'll see amazing sets.
We need those anyway, 0.3ms pixel response time = bright future.


Heard a rumor that Sony will have some OLED TVs next year! I've seen the ABL in action on the EC9300 and it's no where near as bad as the better plasma TVs. There's supposed to be a replacement for the EC9300 by the end of this year - 55EG9100. Still has a curve unfortunately, and I am not hopeful that we will ever see a flat 1080p OLED other than the 55EA8800. Though if the input lag on the 55EG9100 is lower than the 55EC9300 and can be purchased for <$1,500, I might just buy one! :mrgreen:

marqs wrote:
Based on this, Saturn Hi-Vision modes (352x480 and 704x480) display 561 lines per frame instead of the usual 525 as in 31kHz and interlaced 15kHz. It will pass digitization and linedoubling fine, but the end result is still 561 lines which is a number that only computer monitors, not too many TVs, will accept.


Several years back I found a collection of homebrew demos. One of the demos was for Hi-Vision output. I was able to get a picture on my TV using a RGBS cable from the Saturn to my Kramer FC-14 (RGB->Component). Unfortunately I can't seem to find the ISO anymore to test again, and don't have the disc.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:38 pm 



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if your chip is happy with sync below 0.6V all you need is a resistor in line and a diode to ground


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:16 pm 


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thesteve wrote:
if your chip is happy with sync below 0.6V all you need is a resistor in line and a diode to ground
I'd rather clamp somewhere around 1.5V (2 normal diodes / zener) to avoid loading normal composite signal. I'm still a bit unsure about whole clamp idea, considering that the input may have DC offset.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:05 pm 



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if you cap couple then there wont be an offset


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:07 pm 



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if you have an inline resistor at least 75ohm (1K better) then loading wont be an issue


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:52 pm 


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Hey marqs, how hard would it be to add a rotated mode to your device ?

Like those;

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38531

http://yokotate.hazard-city.de//

http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/datapath.html

For a future revision maybe ? :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:15 am 


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That would surely require a full frame-buffer something this device doesn't use.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:07 am 


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Oh I see. One full frame would would be unaccetable anyway, let's forget I asked. ^^
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:56 am 


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I wouldn't dismiss it completely. Yes, rotation would require a full frame buffer, but it could be made optional and a full frame buffer wouldn't be the worst thing as it would allow for more scaling options and more compatible HD video output resolutions. Kinda like the NES HDMI mod which - to my understanding - adds just the amount of buffering/lag required to make the choosen video output possible.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:38 pm 


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Rotation would definitely need a frame buffer, so it won't make into this system. However, I have a list for new ideas and features if I end up designing an advanced scaler in the future, and external memory (which could be used for frame buffer) is on the list.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:58 pm 


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I would certainly be okay with 1 frame delay if you decide to make an advanced scaler :) Would this be enough to allow for framerate-conversion too? For example 59.18Hz on the Neo Geo MVS, so it can be displayed on a 60Hz TV?

As I understand, a system with a refresh-rate as weird as this won't work with your current scandoubler, unless the TV is extremely tolerant, or you overclock the system very little, to make it run proper 60Hz.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:21 pm 


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We should probably wait for the linedoubler to be released before we start talking about all the potential features a full-blown scaler would have, lol


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:53 pm 


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Indeed something full featured with minimal lag to replace the old ABT scalers would be awesome, that's what the XRGB Mini should really have been of course.

but.. first things first :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:39 pm 


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A set of shiny new PCBs finally arrived :). Time to assemble a few of those during next week and see how well the new prototype works.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:56 pm 


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Exciting stuff!! Keep up the great work. A sure buy from me once available!


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:03 pm 


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Wow, are you going to hand solder all those QFPs ? :shock:

If so you have my respect :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:30 pm 


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rtw wrote:
Wow, are you going to hand solder all those QFPs ? :shock:

Yeah, that's why there's a big hole in the center of the big thermal pad so that you can melt solder paste from the other side using a soldering iron. It's not actually that hard to manually solder QFPs as it may look, but you need good equipment and some practice.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:18 pm 


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Great to hear work is going on.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:01 pm 


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Congrats, can't wait to get testing this :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:24 pm 


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Exciting. You could do it the JVS-PAC way too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2D_KVt ... e=youtu.be
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:41 pm 


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Just joined the forum and was wondering if this would be a better alternative to a FrameMeister for Saturn, Genesis, SNES(EuroSCART) and Dreamcast(VGA). I recently purchased an Epson 2045 and it has excellent input delay(24ms) for gaming.

What do you folks think? The projector is native 1080p so this board only going to 720p could cause some processing delay, but I've heard that the scanlines on the FrameMeister look horrid in 1080p mode. Believe me playing retro games on a 158" screen can turn into a pixaleted mess in a hurry.
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