OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[marqs]

would it be possible to fix this "flaw" with upgraded hardware and higher line output modes? (line-quadruple?)

I added linequadruple under "Other feature requests". I believe the current hardware is already capable for basic linequadruple, but the output (e.g. 720x960 or 1280x960) might not work that well with many flat panels (especially TVs).

[BuckoA51]

I had always read that the scanlines produced in 1080p were the weak point of the Framemeister,

FM 1080p scanlines are way to thin (at least they were, without lots of tweaking, haven't used my FM in a while), but at 720p most people are quite happy with them.

I believe the current hardware is already capable for basic linequadruple

Oh, I thought that was out of the question on current hardware.

[Blair]

I added linequadruple under "Other feature requests". I believe the current hardware is already capable for basic linequadruple, but the output (e.g. 720x960 or 1280x960) might not work that well with many flat panels (especially TVs).

that's okay for me, as I would most likely be running it through a video processor, or a PC monitor. but I would be willing to jump through a few extra hoops to get accurate scanlines at a high resolution ( I'm sure there are others here that feel the same).

makes sense that its on the back burner for now though, probably having a difficult time just getting current units out to people first. (I imagine).

thanks for answering my questions.

Oh, I thought that was out of the question on current hardware.

I knew my "merchant sense" was tingling. you were defending the product. lol

marqs's explanation gives me hope that the OSSC will (someday) be the perfect digitizer to satisfy all my needs. (seems likely with such a good community and thorough developer).

it still amazes me just how far this project has come in a relatively short amount of time.

[BuckoA51]

Not sure I follow..I didn't think the current OSSC was able to do line quadruple due to hardware limitations. If it can and it gets implemented, there's a good chance a DVDO scaler (more likely the Edge than the 50 Pro) could handle the signal.

[Xyga]

Such mode would not work even on modern monitors, lots of them being tied to a limited number of VESA timings, I think most will reject 960p.
Just reading specs sheets (manuals actually, often where the real specs are) you'll commonly see 1440x900@60 or 1600x900@60, or 1152x864@75, but nothing 960 whatever the input and frequency.
There might be more hidden/unlisted compatible modes through VGA for instance, total speculation, if so there might be specific requirements.
I remember trying my luck on two TVs and three monitors, all fairly recent Full-HD save for the third monitor, I was using a DVDO to test, and the only display that accepted it was my 10 years old 1200p monitor through DVI.

If there is no way to force 'fake resolution' modes where a number of lines would be actively masked or added, it is likely that those linetriple and maybe linequadruple modes will forever remain a privilege of a small population of (aged) displays and flexible video processor owners.

Though in the case of linetripling things seem slightly less problematic if we can indeed use effective Component or VGA trancoder workarounds.

[Blair]

Not sure I follow..I didn't think the current OSSC was able to do line quadruple due to hardware limitations. If it can and it gets implemented, there's a good chance a DVDO scaler (more likely the Edge than the 50 Pro) could handle the signal.

well, I hope we get the chance to find out. as I said before, proper scanlines are always a big deal for me. when it comes to 2-D games at least (polygon-based games games I can take it or leave it, for the most part)

OSSC seems to outperform most other solutions we've had so far, except in this one area. and from what marqs says that should be fixable, it's just not a top priority right now.

I just found it funny that your response to my question sounded a little bit defensive, the way it was worded. I'm sure you didn't mean for it to come off that way.

Such mode would not work even on modern monitors, lots of them being tied to a limited number of VESA timings, I think most will reject 960p.
Just reading specs sheets (manuals actually, often where the real specs are) you'll commonly see 1440x900@60 or 1600x900@60, or 1152x864@75, but nothing 960 whatever the input and frequency.
There might be more hidden/unlisted compatible modes through VGA for instance, total speculation, if so there might be specific requirements.
I remember trying my luck on two TVs and three monitors, all fairly recent Full-HD save for the third monitor, I was using a DVDO to test, and the only display that accepted it was my 10 years old 1200p monitor through DVI.

If there is no way to force 'fake resolution' modes where a number of lines would be actively masked or added, it is likely that those linetriple and maybe linequadruple modes will forever remain a privilege of a small population of (aged) displays and flexible video processor owners.

Though in the case of linetripling things seem slightly less problematic if we can indeed use effective Component or VGA trancoder workarounds.

eh, if the OSSC takes off and perhaps inspires a few imitators. television and monitor manufacturers might see a demand for somewhat exotic resolution support. 4K monitors especially considering how weird scaling for those is going to be for a while.

it seemed like ( for a while at least) that television manufacturers were getting better with 480i and 240p support on recent models, considering how bad things have been for the last few years.

now that you mention "flexible" video processor though, has anyone tested the OSSC with the DVDO iScan Mini or Micro yet? I would be very curious to see how those fair against their older cousins.

[ZellSF]

Though in the case of linetripling things seem slightly less problematic if we can indeed use effective Component or VGA trancoder workarounds.

Huh? Have someone tested and found line tripling to work over component or vga on a display where it did not work on HDMI? If so, I missed that and that would be interesting to me.

Really liking the DVDO VP50 + OSSC combo btw. Perfect in everything (except the minor color range issue).

[Xyga]

I think Fudoh talked about testing a number of those transcoders to find out.

[Thomago]

Such mode would not work even on modern monitors, lots of them being tied to a limited number of VESA timings, I think most will reject 960p.
Just reading specs sheets (manuals actually, often where the real specs are) you'll commonly see 1440x900@60 or 1600x900@60, or 1152x864@75, but nothing 960 whatever the input and frequency.
There might be more hidden/unlisted compatible modes through VGA for instance, total speculation, if so there might be specific requirements.
I remember trying my luck on two TVs and three monitors, all fairly recent Full-HD save for the third monitor, I was using a DVDO to test, and the only display that accepted it was my 10 years old 1200p monitor through DVI.

What? Granted, my experience is limited to only two LCD monitors, but both of them accept 960p modes without problems, be it from VGA, DVI or HDMI. Also, one of them doesn't even list that resolution in its spec sheet.
I really don't think that's the exception.

[Fudoh]

I had always read that the scanlines produced in 1080p were the weak point of the Framemeister

if you're using the integer scaling profiles by FBX you can get pretty nice scanlines in 1080p.

are you saying there is a difference between its 480p and 720p scanline thickness as well?

no there isn't, but that's the point. If you upscale a scanlined 480p image and a scanlined 720p image, the scanlines on the 480p image will appear thicker since you're coming from a 1:1 (scanline to pixel ratio) and not from a 1:2 ratio.

it shouldn't really make a difference if its a CRT or an LCD

it makes a huge difference. Just grab a scanlined 720p framemeister from Youtube and display it 1:1 first and upscaled to fullscreen after that. The upscaling smoothes the scanlines and makes them appear closer to the scanlines on a 480p image. If use an external upscaler like a DVDO the effect is the same.

In other words: just don't worry about how the scanlines are implemented right now. It's done the right way and I can't imagine that you'll find a better way for a linetripled signal.

[paulb_nl]

Here's a mockup of how scanlines would look in linetriple mode if we could adjust the second and third lines separately. I think it looks a lot like linedouble scanlines with the second line set to 50%.

[Xyga]

What? Granted, my experience is limited to only two LCD monitors, but both of them accept 960p modes without problems, be it from VGA, DVI or HDMI. Also, one of them doesn't even list that resolution in its spec sheet.
I really don't think that's the exception.

Dunno, how old were those (it's very important) ? maybe you were more lucky, but I don't see this mode as being common at all nowadays.

[BuckoA51]

Really liking the DVDO VP50 + OSSC combo btw. Perfect in everything (except the minor color range issue).

Remind me what that was again exactly?

[Xyga]

I think just the quirky output level settings thing.

[ZellSF]

Really liking the DVDO VP50 + OSSC combo btw. Perfect in everything (except the minor color range issue).

Remind me what that was again exactly?

OSSC outputs full range.

VP50 can't convert from full to limited. It can do full to full, but some displays (like mine) won't properly display full from hdmi sources (OSSC is a DVI source, VP50 is not).

[Xyga]

but some displays (like mine) won't properly display full from hdmi sources (OSSC is a DVI source, VP50 is not).

Now you mention it not all TVs allow to select/force range on the input indeed. Argh.

[Thomago]

Dunno, how old were those (it's very important) ? maybe you were more lucky, but I don't see this mode as being common at all nowadays.

One from about 6 years ago and one from about 1,5 years ago. And while this mode indeed isn't common these days, it was extremely so up to the PS360 era. TV/monitor producers ignoring that seems grossly negligent to me.
And while I'm at it: OSSC development ignoring the potential this mode has to offer cause select displays aren't compatible to it would be negligent as well *wink wink*

[Xyga]

It's not surprising that it would work on older monitors indeed, but imho in regards to more modern ones I still suspect kind of 'hidden compatibility' modes, which I wouldn't take for granted to be working on a measurable portion of what the market has to offer.
We can't test all monitors anyway, maybe just a couple very standard ones from each big name brand, but that's not totally foolproof either.

[BuckoA51]

Right, after a brief bit of testing I might as well open this up to everyone..I have a full site backup so what the heck

https://www.videogameperfection.com/forums/

Rather than one massive thread here we can now create sub-threads for OSSC discussion.

Please keep it civil, and if you break anything please let me know...

...*crosses fingers and prays nothing major breaks*

[Thomago]

Nice.

[lev11]

Really liking the DVDO VP50 + OSSC combo btw. Perfect in everything (except the minor color range issue).

Doesn't the VP50 (non pro) have big lag with 480p and 720p sources? Or has the firmware been updated since this thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37930

[ZellSF]

Really liking the DVDO VP50 + OSSC combo btw. Perfect in everything (except the minor color range issue).

Doesn't the VP50 (non pro) have big lag with 480p and 720p sources? Or has the firmware been updated since this thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37930

If file dates are to believe, the fix for that problem (1.09 firmware added an option to disable cadence detection) was before that thread. Fudoh was probably unaware since he already got rid of his. My VP50 is definitely nowhere near three frames of lag.

[eric90000]

There's no way to run component audio signal through this right? Does it need to be handled separate through an amp or something?

[RocketBelt]

There's no way to run component audio signal through this right? Does it need to be handled separate through an amp or something?

Can't you just put the audio through the scart socket using a scart composite\audio block? (that is a guess).

[Guspaz]

The OSSC does not support sending digital audio down the DVI port (*), so all it normally does is bridge the SCART audio pins to the 3.5mm audio jack on the OSSC, which is just to make it a bit easier to hook things up so that you don't need to find some other way to get audio off the SCART. AFAIK it's completely passive, no amp or anything, it's just making it easier to connect.

(*): There is a mod board that can be added to the OSSC that captures the audio off the analog audio line and send it digitally down the DVI wire, but that's an unofficial mod. If you do have that mod installed, then you can input audio either via SCART or via the 3.5mm jack and the mod will digitize it.

[juji82]

Did anybody try OSSC - Crystalio II combo ? I cannot find some spare time to test this..

[Bahn Yuki]

Tried ossc at my local Video Only. Thanks to the guys there for allowing me to hook up the OSSC to their for models.

Samsung ks8000, ks8500, ks9000, ks9500 = shows initial 480p "gray" square, but once RGBS input is selected it fails top display an image. Sony 840d had the same results. This mimics what my avrs do.
LG OLED actually worked! Looked absolutely amazing with scanlines really standing out.

[Xyga]

Sorry you mean you tested those for linetriple compatibility ? Or not even normal linedoubled showed ?

[rtw]

Tried ossc at my local Video Only. Thanks to the guys there for allowing me to hook up the OSSC to their for models.
Samsung ks8000, ks8500, ks9000, ks9500 = shows initial 480p "gray" square, but once RGBS input is selected it fails top display an image. Sony 840d had the same results. This mimics what my avrs do. LG OLED actually worked! Looked absolutely amazing with scanlines really standing out.

Which console did you test with ?

[fafangus]

Did anybody try OSSC - Crystalio II combo ? I cannot find some spare time to test this..

Fudoh is on his way