OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

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bacardi
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by bacardi »

Xyga wrote:@G: Had to grab the link from the raw post, didn't work for some reason.
Anyway I see what you mean, since those stark plain colors are flickering at the same location for a long time it is possible that they leave the overstimulated liquid crystals remaining a bit stunned/sluggish for a while.
This is probably an extreme case, after all it resembles the conditions of those dodgy little programs people run to get pixels un-stuck using extreme strain.
I can't tell you if there's a risk of leaving permanent marks or not, but that's definitely not exclusively IPS-related, all panel techs have some technical limitations.

@bacardi: a used VP30 or VP50 to pair with your OSSC might cost less than a Mini, and you'll keep the low lag.
If you have PAL games you intend to triple though, the VP's might not be good, the EDGE would but unlike the VPs it won't retain the low lag in every situation.
I have an old LCD with VGA and DVI inputs with a native res of 1280x1024 - would that actually work? Not sure what's the exact res OSSC outputs?
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Xyga
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xyga »

bacardi wrote:I have an old LCD with VGA and DVI inputs with a native res of 1280x1024 - would that actually work? I think 240p tripled would end up with 1280x960 which the monitor actually suppots.
The OSSC can output linedoubled (480p), linetripled (720p) or linedoubled 480p (960p), not quadrupled 240p yet (it's being tested I believe).
Anyway I don't seen any reason why most modes wouldn't work on your monitor, they're generally open to more video modes than TVs.
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bacardi
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by bacardi »

Xyga wrote:
bacardi wrote:I have an old LCD with VGA and DVI inputs with a native res of 1280x1024 - would that actually work? I think 240p tripled would end up with 1280x960 which the monitor actually suppots.
The OSSC can output linedoubled (480p), linetripled (720p) or linedoubled 480p (960p), not quadrupled 240p yet (it's being tested I believe).
Anyway I don't seen any reason why most modes wouldn't work on your monitor, they're generally open to more video modes than TVs.
Right, interesting - I guess i can resort to using that monitor then ;) I wonder if 4x240p would actually work on the Bravia screen (when it's released). I need to have a look at which modes it supports actually.
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Harrumph
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Harrumph »

bacardi wrote:
Ugh that's bad news.... I guess I should just go for a Framemeister :/ I got the W series which i read have an issue, the 4k ones are fine but it's an overkill of a TV, i don't have any 4k content to run on it anyway :(
Well from what I heard, even W-series owners have been pretty pleased as apparently the 480p scaling is really excellent. Maybe someone can chime in to comment on this?

Just get on the waiting list anyway, it will be months (?) before you get the offer to buy anyway, so no harm to get in line. By the time you get offered to buy, it will be known how the new 4x/5x modes pan out as well.
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Galdelico
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Galdelico »

Xyga wrote:@G: Had to grab the link from the raw post, didn't work for some reason.
Anyway I see what you mean, since those stark plain colors are flickering at the same location for a long time it is possible that they leave the overstimulated liquid crystals remaining a bit stunned/sluggish for a while.
This is probably an extreme case, after all it resembles the conditions of those dodgy little programs people run to get pixels un-stuck using extreme strain.
I can't tell you if there's a risk of leaving permanent marks or not, but that's definitely not exclusively IPS-related, all panel techs have some technical limitations.
Sure, I didn't assume it had anything to do with the panel being IPS***, and I figured as well it could be caused by the heavy flickering of those 2D graphic elements.
For some reason, the scanlines operate really well on linedoubled, interlaced 3D graphics, reducing the perception of screen flicker almost to zero. I must say, I'm very impressed of how nice PS2 games look (to my, at least) on my monitor through the OSSC.

That said, I only had that occurrence with Saturn Virtua Fighter 2... I don't know if that's because the UI is drawn at an even higher resolution (I tried several fighting games on the PS2 - which should be fully running at 480i - and none of them impacted on the screen like VF2 did), or what... But I'm curious to know if anyone else had the same experience.

*** Speaking of which, thanks again. You gave me great suggestions and I couldn't be happier of my purchase. The IPS screen is wonderful and doesn't make me miss my CRTs, in terms of color depth and 'pop'. I don't know if that's even possible, but I'd swear the backlight bleeding almost disappeared now, on the corners, leaving only one little (barely visible on a fully black frame) smear at the bottom/left of the screen.
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donluca
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by donluca »

IIRC VF2 on Saturn uses 240p on 3D models (and UI?) and 480i on backgrounds.

So, yeah, that's your recipe for a nightmare when you try to do something on the video signal.
bacardi
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by bacardi »

Harrumph wrote:
bacardi wrote:
Ugh that's bad news.... I guess I should just go for a Framemeister :/ I got the W series which i read have an issue, the 4k ones are fine but it's an overkill of a TV, i don't have any 4k content to run on it anyway :(
Well from what I heard, even W-series owners have been pretty pleased as apparently the 480p scaling is really excellent. Maybe someone can chime in to comment on this?

Just get on the waiting list anyway, it will be months (?) before you get the offer to buy anyway, so no harm to get in line. By the time you get offered to buy, it will be known how the new 4x/5x modes pan out as well.
Right, yeah thats what i did, this Bravia actually supports 1280x960 via HDMI so for 4x that dhould be fine. Just out of curiousity, 480i has 2x line mode so that should actually work fine on a panel like this? Thx!
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Guspaz
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Guspaz »

OSSC's 960p output is not the same timings as normal 1280x960, so just because the display supports 1280x960 doesn't necessarily mean it will work with OSSC 960p.
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Galdelico
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Galdelico »

donluca wrote:IIRC VF2 on Saturn uses 240p on 3D models (and UI?) and 480i on backgrounds.

So, yeah, that's your recipe for a nightmare when you try to do something on the video signal.
It's a bit of a mess, yeah. The OSSC's LCD says it's 576(I believe?)i during gameplay, and basically 240p when the FMV intro rolls through, and you're on the character select screen.
That said, you can clearly see what's going on when you pause the action... The 2D backdrops and the UI flicker quite alot, while the character models and the arena don't. I've read there are other games on the Saturn that do the same thing - pretty sure Fighter Megamix is one of them - so I'll do some further tests.

It's really interesting to be able to finally see what's going on with screen resolutions in real time... I never noticed it, but the PlayStation logo - when you boot up Japanese PS1 games on the PS2 - is actually interlaced.
Last edited by Galdelico on Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Guspaz
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Guspaz »

The PS1 logo is always interlaced in any region, AFAIK. It certainly is for North America.
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Xyga
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xyga »

Galdelico wrote:That said, I only had that occurrence with Saturn Virtua Fighter 2... I don't know if that's because the UI is drawn at an even higher resolution
Nope nothing to do with resolution here, I really suspect it's the flickering/alternate flashing of those plain colors in the same area that provokes this.
As I said this is how people try to move/resurrect dead pixels, because doing so excerts great strain on the liquid crystals.
But the occurences of something similar happening with contents are really, really few, VF2 here is just bad luck.

In any case neither the OSSC nor monitors in general are supposed to be ideal for handling interlaced sources, true scalers with deinterlacing, and even TVs, will do it better.
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RocketBelt
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by RocketBelt »

I've also seen the image persistance effect on my TV. It is an LG IPS panel. I've read that IPS panels are more susceptible to image persistance.
In deinterlace mode, any bright edges in the picture, like the white outline of a box, will leave severe artifacts on the panel after only a few minutes of display. Probably the panel cannot deal with such fast brightness changes. When I first saw it I thought the panel was a goner for sure. But it does fade away if I leave the TV off overnight. As a result I don't use the deinterlace option as it would surely damage this particular panel.
Shame (for me) because deinterlace mode otherwise looks really nice.
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Xyga
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xyga »

RocketBelt wrote:I've also seen the image persistance effect on my TV. It is an LG IPS panel. I've read that IPS panels are more susceptible to image persistance.
In deinterlace mode, any bright edges in the picture, like the white outline of a box, will leave severe artifacts on the panel after only a few minutes of display. Probably the panel cannot deal with such fast brightness changes. When I first saw it I thought the panel was a goner for sure. But it does fade away if I leave the TV off overnight. As a result I don't use the deinterlace option as it would surely damage this particular panel.
Shame (for me) because deinterlace mode otherwise looks really nice.
Again I believe they are not more suceptible than other types of LCDs, but that some specific ordeals like that will affect all liquid crystal displays anyway.
I've fed all kinds of sources including more or less flickering signals to several LG IPS and even a couple Samsung PLS over the years, and I've never seen a hint of persistent colors and shapes.
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NJRoadfan
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by NJRoadfan »

Interlacing has nothing to do with it. My HP LP2475w, which uses a LG IPS panel, suffers from image persistence if objects are left onscreen for a long period of time (ex: Windows Taskbar). It is not permanent though, and goes away after changing the screen content.
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by RocketBelt »

The flickering effect of the OSSC deinterlacing causes severe persistance artifacts on my TV after only a few minutes.
After just one race of Ridge Racer V and I can still see the edges of the lap time boxes or anything that was static persisting on race results screen in a very obvious way. These artifacts persist for at least an hour but disappear if the TV is left off overnight. I've never seen this happen on this TV before. The same game through a VP50 doesn't cause it. It is definitely the flickering.
Just to be clear I'm not complaining since the OSSC has interlace pass-through. I didn't read any other reports of this so guess it is a feature of my panel, an LG IPS.
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Xyga
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xyga »

Are you all talking about quite old monitors ? like pretty much all people who ever mentioned this problem with IPSes ?
You know, panels techs/quality change over time and you can't state 'XXX lcds' feature 'xxx' weakness forever.

Today probably 80% of IPS on the market are manufactured by LG, and the rest is mostly Samsung PLS (mostly identical), I've been buying and trying those since about 2010 when the first serious improvements with RTC began to change the game, and there's no way those persistence issues are still a thing, none of even the most serious reviewers ever made mention of it since that time, because as I'm saying it's not something that would happen easily now and even if still so, then it's fallen to imperceptible and harmless levels (even so before I've never ever seen any proof of a permanently marked LCD, only vague rumors with really stone-age stuff before I even got into IPS).

So please people don't make the same kind of too-quick statements Rtings do, especially if you have old monitors, because as always most people reading will understand it as a general rule for all IPS period, which is damn wrong.
There is no way today IPSes and in general LCD's would show any serious issues like that unless put to specific stress situations.
They're no plasmas or oleds dammit, LCDs are safe, but we can trump them with some difficult to pass color tests sometimes yes, no need for any kind of alarmism though.
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Galdelico
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Galdelico »

Didn't mean to spread the fear, Xyga. :D I just thought to report that one strange occurrence I experienced, which you totally explained a few posts above. To be honest, it's not a big deal, and even if my monitor is pretty much brand new, I'm not sure it's recent - as far as its production goes - or quite old.
That said, I'm surely not going to forums, suggesting to avoid IPS panels because of that. I realize that what happens with VF2 isn't exactly the most common crashtest these monitors are supposed to go through, on a regular basis. ^_-
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Xyga
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xyga »

I wasn't pointing at you but in general because of those successive posts on the topic, I mean it starts like this and you wouldn't believe how powerful incaccurate or exaggerated statements spread, especially with things as quirky an ever-evolving as flat panel displays, people will mix and confuse EVERYTHING and the belief will be DURABLE.

People don't get that we can't mix displays and the various related tech fields all from different generations and make general statements like that, it's as stupid as the old 'plasmas have less lag' meme, or the more recent 'VA are faster than IPS' or 'OLEDs are flawed because they don't come with rolling scan'.
people buy that shit and repeat it everywhere, it's like politics memes.

Pixel persistence on older IPSes might have been a common and noticeable problem before, but what you see on yours is not that, it's a phenomenon that happens because that VF2 scenario put a real strain on the crystals, something that would probably be a problem for ALL liquid crystal displays anyway.
Talking about a persistence issue specific to IPSes today is a stupid exaggeration, supported by practically no reliable and decent products technical inquiry and thorough testing. If there's a resurgence of the problem in today's industry (which I fucking doubt, hard) or we simply have a too 'edgy' clean flickering on some particular game screen, or if a guy or two speak of their experience with products of 10 years ago: it must all be made clear, because each case means a different truth.
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Xer Xian
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Xer Xian »

marqs wrote:Passthru-option has also been added for all modes, and line4x/5x are currently being tested.
Whoa, I never thought line5x could be achieved, you are really squeezing the heck out of that little box! :o
Say, how will scanlines be rendered in line4x/5x? I mean, every other line is blackened in line2x, while in 3x, it's every third line - will this pattern continue for bigger multiples?
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badwhite40
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help for perfect scanlines

Post by badwhite40 »

Hi!

Ps2 ntsc | rgb scart | OSSC | dvdo vp50pro | vewlix diamond 1080p display

I can't get the scanlines in triple mode from ossc with perfect distance between them
Spoiler
Image
Last edited by badwhite40 on Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Galdelico
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Galdelico »

Do you have any 'sharpness' setting/value cranked up on your display? This happened to me on my Asus 24" 1080p monitor. Bringing sharpness back to zero - from 30/35, which was the original number from the calibration I did for the PS3/XBOX360 (the systems I currently use that monitor with) - fixed the issue.
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Fudoh
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Fudoh »

Your DVDO's output isn't properly mapped to your panel. The menu is supposed to by pixel perfect and razor sharp. In other words: your display is rescaling the DVDO's output. What are the specs of the display ?
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badwhite40
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by badwhite40 »

panasonic AX080B077H

I have not manual or something to find the spec.
When I send vídeo by the hdmi/dvi connection the display say me 1080p 60... but may be the panel is not true 1080?
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citrus3000psi
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by citrus3000psi »

badwhite40 wrote:panasonic AX080B077H

I have not manual or something to find the spec.
When I send vídeo by the hdmi/dvi connection the display say me 1080p 60... but may be the panel is not true 1080?
Maybe the panel doesn't like the 59.94 Framerate. Try locking the output to 60hz.
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Fudoh
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Fudoh »

Na, 59.94Hz is certainly fine.

There aren't too many possibilites. Either the screen applies overscan (which you can check with the DVDOs test pattern) or its resolution is lower. Since there were no commercial displays with anything but 1080p or 768p, it shouldn't be too hard to find a match. Feel free to take a snapshot with WXGA and I'll tell if it's native.

For a native connection to a WXGA panel you need to output 1360x768, which will usually leave 3-4 pixels unused on each side.
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badwhite40
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by badwhite40 »

Thanks dudes!

https://imgur.com/gallery/F7og6

I thinks the panel is 1360x768 as Fudoh has said.

With one pattern from the dvdo (with scans) I can see it for myself.

Some forum member was saying these panels were 1080.. but at lest this Panasonic model are not.

Which will be the better way to upscale in this monitor?

The scans in triple mode and without dvdo are not simetrics and with the dvdo and output 768 are not good Either
Any clue?
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Fudoh
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Fudoh »

yes, definitely a 768p panel. If you set the OSSC to 480p and let the DVDO handle the upscaling from 480p to 768p it will probably look better than 720p to 768p and that's as good as it will get on this kind of panel. It's far from perfect, but as you have noticed yourself 768p just doesn't offer enough resolution to allow any better upscaling.

One thing you can try is to enable the underscan option on the DVDO and try if you can display the OSSC's 720p inside a 768p frame. There's no way to get it right automatically, but maybe you find a % value using the underscan option that gives you a pretty close 720p hit.

PS: since you tried various 768p resolutions: 1360*768 is the right one, since it gives you a horizontal 1:1 mapping as well, so your display won't do anymore scaling.
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badwhite40
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by badwhite40 »

There aren't a option where the dvdo takes 720p from the OSSC and without scaling out a 768p leaving Black these 48 vertical lines?
In this way the panel takes from the dvdo 768p where only are visibles 720
Is this posible ?
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badwhite40
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by badwhite40 »

Playing with line 3x, dvdo underscan and output in 768p
Spoiler
Image
Image
And this in line 2X, dvdo zoom+underscan output in 768p

A little bigger and also may be more natural
Spoiler
Image
Anyway, is not the better solution but great image for this panel from 240p
Last edited by badwhite40 on Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fudoh
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Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler

Post by Fudoh »

hey, that looks pretty good. Seems like the underscan option is line based after all (24 meaning 24 lines per side?) and not percentage based. How do you like the results ? Any irregularities somewhere ?
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