OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

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RocketBelt
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by RocketBelt »

Syntax wrote:Not sure if there's a list to add it to but I just burnt PS1 Tekken 3 health bars into my Acer T232HL using stock OSSC settings.
Did the panel return to normal after a few hours?
NJRoadfan
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by NJRoadfan »

The OSSC v1.6 made a cameo appearance at the Vintage Computer Festival East today providing video output for an Amstrad CPC464 (quite a few PVMs running displays too). Guess that machine can be added to the compatibility list.

Link since the picture is huge.
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MysticSynergy
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by MysticSynergy »

Been messing around with the new hybrid scanline option with the current firmware update. Thing is - I can't figure out what's changing. How are the hybrid scanlines different than the regular? Should I be using multiplication or subtraction? Do I need to have regular scanlines on and then add a bit of hybrid for the hybrid to work?

For example, there is an obvious noticeable difference if I simply crank the regular scanlines to 100%. Then, if I add say 30% of hybrid, to me it looks to slowly fade the regular thick scanlines. Am I doing something wrong? Any help would be greatly appreciated :)
Dochartaigh
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Dochartaigh »

MysticSynergy wrote:Been messing around with the new hybrid scanline option with the current firmware update. Thing is - I can't figure out what's changing. How are the hybrid scanlines different than the regular?
Crank both up to their max. Look at a bright white area of the screen. See how there's no black lines running across that part of the image? That's the hybrid scanlines in action - it basically tried to emulate bloom on bright parts of a CRT image where they're so bright you no longer see the blanking lines.

...or at least that's how I think it's appearing and working.
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ASDR
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by ASDR »

Bob interviews marqs!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQy_xmn4Evk

Too bad the audio is so poor, sounds like he's talking to Bane

Image

:D
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Xyga
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Xyga »

Dochartaigh wrote:
MysticSynergy wrote:Been messing around with the new hybrid scanline option with the current firmware update. Thing is - I can't figure out what's changing. How are the hybrid scanlines different than the regular?
Crank both up to their max. Look at a bright white area of the screen. See how there's no black lines running across that part of the image? That's the hybrid scanlines in action - it basically tried to emulate bloom on bright parts of a CRT image where they're so bright you no longer see the blanking lines.

...or at least that's how I think it's appearing and working.
Yeah it's doing that, it's a bit more realistic than the usual uniform black lines, and as a bonus side-effect it rebalances the entire picture's brightness, no need to crank up the display's brighness slider significantly to compensate like before.
(well that was mainly a problem for people who like a rather pronounced scanlines effect, but it's beneficial to those who use a rather dim/low luminosity display too)
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chromium
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by chromium »

A couple of questions.

What is alternating scan lines supposed to do? I thought it was supposed to help with flicker on interlaced sources, but using my PS2 on Bob 4x looks no different on Alternating or Horizontal.

Also, will the burn in issue people are seeing on interlaced images be a problem on my LG OLED?
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Harrumph
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Harrumph »

chromium wrote: Also, will the burn in issue people are seeing on interlaced images be a problem on my LG OLED?
No. The interlaced image issue is only (?) for IPS LCD panels.
Burn-in on OLEDs is due to other things.
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Xyga
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Xyga »

Some rare VAs too apparently, but much less so.
Also are we sure OLEDs are safe with brutal/fast flicker?
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Fudoh
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Fudoh »

maybe it would make sense to find out which actual type of IPS is affected by this. I mean, I've had (and still have) a lot of monitors, many being IPS (of various kinds) and none of them ever had any problems with the unterinterpolated single field deinterlacing various processors offer. After all the OSSC is not alone in this.
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Xyga
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Xyga »

I've been wondering too since I've owned several IPS that never showed a hint of retention either.
Although I've heard about it maaaany years ago when that type of panel was still rather expensive, it's only in recent years that the issue's began to reappear.
I could confirm it with an LG monitor I've bought recently, but another one very similar (the ViewSonic) bought in the same period with most likely the same panel isn't nearly as affected (or so it seems for now but I haven't specifically challenged/compared both)

The only reason I can think of yet is the main manufacturers (it's not like there are that many) using some sensitive material or part in the manufacturing process from time-to-time, depending on supply.
If that's what is happening then it's another lottery situation, and good luck telling apart the good ones from the bad...
EDIT: I want to make it clear this is just speculation.
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Galdelico
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Galdelico »

Xyga wrote:I've been wondering too since I've owned several IPS that never showed a hint of retention either.
In retrospective, all our findings helped me to better understand odd phenomena I personally experienced in the past, and that I had no clue about until recently. One of them being a very similar image retention artifact I saw (and read a few reports here and there online as well) on Nintendo DSi XL's - guess what - IPS LCD screens.

Also, I always mention how it's pretty easy to replicate the temporary flicker retention issue on the New Nintendo 3DSXL's IPS models too (I tried it myself on several consoles, and it always worked).
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FBX
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by FBX »

My 'perfect world' wish list for the OSSC:

1. The ability to scale beyond 5x, and simply have the output cut to 1080p or 1200p. Examples: Scale Game Boy/Color to 7x and GBA to 6X.

2. Load profiles from SD card. If not possible and requires firmware with built-in profiles, then a GUI program to assign values for default NAMED profiles, which then outputs a flashable firmware file.

3. Double the current resolution on the sampling phase (if that's even a thing possible).

4. Probably impossible, but a half-dot integer on H. samplerate (one can only dream). If not possible, then a vertical split in the screen where one side is defined by 1 value lower than the other side (sounds stupid, but I could put it to very good use on games that don't seem to fall on a perfect integer).

5. Better interlacing for 480i content. I want to see Interlaced 2x mode similar to what can be done on the Framemeister.

6. Hardware revision: TOSLINK optical audio output jack.

7. Hardware revision: HDMI input scaling of 240/480p HDMI sources (no need to worry about looking for a converter).

8. Minor hardware revision: Rearrange component jacks into proper order (low priority).
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Dochartaigh »

Xyga wrote:(well that was mainly a problem for people who like a rather pronounced scanlines effect, but it's beneficial to those who use a rather dim/low luminosity display too)
I think this is key for all of us. Even if you have two CRT's next to each other, and view content in 480p and 240p, you'll always notice the 240p image is a LOT more dim simply because it only uses half of the lines. And since people usually equate brightness (or things being bright[er] - along with more contrast) as being the better picture, more brightness is always better - and these hybrid scanlines really seem to brighten the image up for me on my flatscreen/LED TV. Before they were enabled in the firmware that was my biggest complaint about using the OSSC on my modern TV - it didn't hold a candle to the brightness of my CRT's. Now it's a LOT better (and I just played a game all the way through on the OSSC for the first time: Symphony of the Night - looked very good on my pretty average non-high-end flatscreen).
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Xyga
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Xyga »

@Galdelico: Yeah but they're still fairly recent. And replicating the issue on a minuscule number of products doesn't explain why for several years in the past the phenomenon didn't seem to occur or so rarely that it wasn't spoken about. It's not that deinterlaced contents were rare either, actually I think it was the opposite.
But there are hundreds, thousands of different IPS panel models in circulation worldwide, accumulated by consumers over the years, it's impossible to sort them out for that particular problem and extract a general rule until the exact cause is found and verified.

LCDs work using a fairly large number of chemicals and electrical components, and just one among those could be responsible for the recurrence.
Imagine a particular substitution chemical used in IPS manufacturing, or whatever very common component/design used in the crystals electricity driving circuitry, at some point being supplied to most manufacturers by the main subcontractor (no shit, sometimes there's only a single maker for one cursed component nearly everyone in the industry uses)...the whole market, although that doesn't mean all models manufactured, will be affected.

And it can go on like this for a long time, until that shitty component or design is removed from the industry.
Manufacturers are so slow to react to that sort of thing that they might have not noticed yet, or just labelled the issue as too minor to bother with all the consequences of admitting its existence.

Unfortunately there's nothing to do but be careful your IPS, or if you know in advance you'll use a fair or large number of deinterlaced contents, to avoid IPS displays completely and go for TN or VA (the latter the better) or even a CRT, because I could be wrong of course but I don't think we'll ever find an answer or a fix.
It's too bad though since it means missing some very nice displays that overall top the average TN and VA.


@Dochartaigh: indeed, and it's also better for colors since a lot of displays have what we could almost call a sweet spot in backlight brightness level for optimal colors, and when you push beyond it for boosting/compensating because of the scanlines the colors often become too flshy and saturated.
hybrid scanlines are very useful, yep.
Last edited by Xyga on Tue May 22, 2018 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by nmalinoski »

I realize this is your wishlist, but I have some input: :P
FBX wrote:5. Better interlacing for 480i content. I want to see Interlaced 2x mode similar to what can be done on the Framemeister.
I would love some proper deinterlacing, even with the added lag. What's especially nice about this is that adding a full framebuffer (ideally togglable) opens the door for so many other image transformations, like 8:7 display ratios for the NES/SNES, or being able to, say, deinterlace 480i, linedouble to 960p, and place that in a 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 frame.
FBX wrote:6. Hardware revision: TOSLINK optical audio output jack.
I can see where this would be useful, though I would like to see TOSLINK inputs. Are there any chips that switch >=3 S/PDIF inputs and has dual outputs?
FBX wrote:7. Hardware revision: HDMI input scaling of 240/480p HDMI sources (no need to worry about looking for a converter).
This would be perfect for pairing the OSSC with the RetroTINK 2X! There'd be no need to shoehorn in composite or S-Video into the OSSC's design; although, there's still no good solution for direct RF, right?
FBX wrote:8. Minor hardware revision: Rearrange component jacks into proper order (low priority).
Depends on your definition of component, I suppose. If it's only YPbPr, then yeah, GBR order makes sense, but component in terms of a cable sense can equally include RGsB, in which case RGB order is also valid; and S-Video, RGBS, and RGBHV are all also technically component video. :D
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by strygo »

nmalinoski wrote:This would be perfect for pairing the OSSC with the RetroTINK 2X! There'd be no need to shoehorn in composite or S-Video into the OSSC's design; although, there's still no good solution for direct RF, right?
Please pass the feedback regarding the lack of RGB output on the RetroTINK 2X to Mike Chi. He's very open to feedback, so if enough of us provide this feedback, it's not inconceivable that a future revision would have RGB output in addition to HDMI.
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orange808
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by orange808 »

FWIW, aspect ratio, overscan, and underscan shouldn't require a full frame buffer. Most of us would just continue to use our DVDOs.
We apologise for the inconvenience
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by nmalinoski »

orange808 wrote:FWIW, aspect ratio, overscan, and underscan shouldn't require a full frame buffer. Most of us would just continue to use our DVDOs.
Okay, then deinterlacing, adjustable zoom, framerate normalization (should help with display compatibility), and maybe PAL<->NTSC format conversion (for giggles).

I find it hard to believe that "most of us" have DVDOs or the budget for one--I know there are a number of members that have them, but I don't--and it doesn't help that all of the applicable DVDO scalers are discontinued; I imagine an OSSC with this kind of functionality would be better supported, more available, and still cheaper than a Framemeister or a used DVDO.
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Xyga
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Xyga »

It wouldn't be cheaper.
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Galdelico
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Galdelico »

Xyga wrote:(...) because I could be wrong of course but I don't think we'll ever find an answer or a fix.
I agree with you on everything, on this especially.
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by nmalinoski »

strygo wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:This would be perfect for pairing the OSSC with the RetroTINK 2X! There'd be no need to shoehorn in composite or S-Video into the OSSC's design; although, there's still no good solution for direct RF, right?
Please pass the feedback regarding the lack of RGB output on the RetroTINK 2X to Mike Chi. He's very open to feedback, so if enough of us provide this feedback, it's not inconceivable that a future revision would have RGB output in addition to HDMI.
I just emailed a bunch questions/suggestions to him, not only regarding analogue output (be it RGBS, RGBHV, or YPbPr), but also things like RF input, discrete audio inputs for each video input, serial console access, and something for a case (I'm not exactly a fan of hooking bare boards into anything.)
Xyga wrote:It wouldn't be cheaper.
I think it would be, even if slightly so. I paid ~$220 (included remote, PSU, and shipping to the US) for my OSSC 1.6 back in August 2017. If such a revision adds $100 to the cost (Would you consider this a reasonable increase in cost for the proposed modifications?), that's still ~$22 to $30 cheaper than a Framemeister ($329.70 to $338.71 + $12.52 cheapest shipping), $125 cheaper than an OSSC plus a vp30 ($220 + $225 shipped for the cheapest vp30 in the US on eBay right now), and ~$133 cheaper than an OSSC 1.6 plus a DVDO ($220 + $218 shipped for the only vp50 in the US on eBay right now + $15 shipped for a power supply for the DVDO); and, already having an OSSC, if I want to upgrade, I imagine selling my existing one would offset the cost enough to bring it below that of adding the vp30.
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Xyga
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Xyga »

You'd have to ask marqs of course but I can imagine that in order to preserve the current OSSC's abilities within such a considerable upgrade some sort of dual processing design would be required, and I don't know about his company but acquiring the parts and arranging manufacturing for something of that level doesn't cost the same for everyone, especially if he can't order large quantities from the start. Development also costs a fair amount in time/money, don't forget that part.
Nope, an additional $100 wouldn't do it I believe.
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naz
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by naz »

So about the hybrid scanlines:


- Do PVM/BVM bloom the bright areas like a consumer CRT?? or they show black scanlines all over the screen like an emulator??

- Do you have a recommended settings for a PVM/BVM look and a consumer CRT look? Right now I'm using 68% strength and 37% hybrid.

- On 5x the OSSC shows the first 3 rows and modifies the remaining 2 for the scanlines look, but this way the visible scanline "bleeds" only up. I think it might be a better look to use the first and last rows as scanlines and the 3 in the middle as normal lines; this way the visible scanlines will bleed both up and down, more like a crt does. Do you think it would be better?? can it be done?


cheers!
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by nmalinoski »

Xyga wrote:You'd have to ask marqs of course but I can imagine that in order to preserve the current OSSC's abilities within such a considerable upgrade some sort of dual processing design would be required, and I don't know about his company but acquiring the parts and arranging manufacturing for something of that level doesn't cost the same for everyone, especially if he can't order large quantities from the start. Development also costs a fair amount in time/money, don't forget that part.
Nope, an additional $100 wouldn't do it I believe.
A fair assessment. Oh well.
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Galdelico
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Galdelico »

naz wrote:So about the hybrid scanlines:

- Do you have a recommended settings for a PVM/BVM look and a consumer CRT look? Right now I'm using 68% strength and 37% hybrid.
I realize it's totally subjective and most likely not going to produce the same results on your setup (different display, calibration, color profile...), but I use these settings on my 1080p Asus VG275 monitor, in sRGB mode:

- Line2x, with optimal timings for progressive sources, as per FBX indications. Personal tastes, of course, but I love how simple line-double adds that minimum degree of softness to the PQ, which goes perfectly well with thick scanlines, and gives horizontal lines' edges just the right amount of roundness, in my opinion.

- Scanlines strenght up to 100%, with Hybrid set to 50%. Method: Multiplication.

Colors look kinda off in them, due to my awful cellphone camera, but you can see a couple of recent pictures in my post at the bottom of the previous page. I guess you can get an idea. It's as close as I could get to what I remember being displayed on my CRT tvs and monitors, in spite of not looking like the real deal, of course. Also, it's quite convenient, as the same settings work pretty well with 480i contents too.
chromium
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by chromium »

Can anyone tell me what alternating scanlines is supposed to do?

I can't tell any difference between horizontal and alternating when using my PS2 via YPbPr at 480i 4x
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by nmalinoski »

chromium wrote:Can anyone tell me what alternating scanlines is supposed to do?

I can't tell any difference between horizontal and alternating when using my PS2 via YPbPr at 480i 4x
According to the OSSC wiki:
Scanline Type wrote:
  • Horizontal: Scanlines drawn on every other (digitize & linedouble modes) or every third (linetriple) output line [default]
  • Vertical: Scanlines drawn on every other output column
  • Alternating: Horizontal scanlines are drawn for every other output line so that id toggles at field change. Useful with interlaced sources to reduce flicker.
And:
Scanlines wrote: Controls whether emulated scanlines are drawn on top of the picture
  • Off: No scanlines drawn [default]
  • Auto: Horizontal scanlines are drawn for 240p/288p sources, alternating scanlines are enabled for 480i/576i, no scanlines for other sources
  • Manual: Scanlines are drawn for every source according to "Scanline type" option
The way these sections read to me, since you're not linedoubling, the horizontal scanlines never take effect, and I'm assuming here that alternating scanlines is the default applied to interlaced content, so you're not seeing a difference because there is no difference. (Someone please correct me if this is incorrect.)

Where you might actually see a difference is between alternating scanlines and bob deinterlacing.
chromium
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by chromium »

nmalinoski wrote:
chromium wrote:Can anyone tell me what alternating scanlines is supposed to do?

I can't tell any difference between horizontal and alternating when using my PS2 via YPbPr at 480i 4x

The way these sections read to me, since you're not linedoubling, the horizontal scanlines never take effect, and I'm assuming here that alternating scanlines is the default applied to interlaced content, so you're not seeing a difference because there is no difference. (Someone please correct me if this is incorrect.)

Where you might actually see a difference is between alternating scanlines and bob deinterlacing.
I am using Line4x Bob deinterlacing
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Fudoh
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Fudoh »

I could imagine that the alternating scanlines don't work for 960i output.

Give it a try with 480p output instead. Alternating scanlines will jump up and down with every field change, while the standard scanlines are static overlays that don't care about what's happening in terms of the individual fields.
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