OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

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radiomike31
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by radiomike31 »

I'm currently using RGB Scart cables to connect almost all of my consoles to the OSSC to output to my Samsung HDTV. I first tried the FirebrandX profiles but wasn't happy with the results, so I am just using generic mode for each system. It looks ok, but I'm kind of underwhelmed still. I've tried posting in forums for help and using the JunkerHQ wiki, but I can't get a picture I like. Does anyone think that I might have decent results with a Retro Tink 2x Scart?
I like what I've seen the smoothing filter do.
I guess my question is does the OSSC in Generic mode still look better than a Retro Tink 2x or might I get the results I'm looking for from the Tink?
Thank you!
CobraKing
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by CobraKing »

radiomike31 wrote:I'm currently using RGB Scart cables to connect almost all of my consoles to the OSSC to output to my Samsung HDTV. I first tried the FirebrandX profiles but wasn't happy with the results, so I am just using generic mode for each system. It looks ok, but I'm kind of underwhelmed still. I've tried posting in forums for help and using the JunkerHQ wiki, but I can't get a picture I like. Does anyone think that I might have decent results with a Retro Tink 2x Scart?
I like what I've seen the smoothing filter do.
I guess my question is does the OSSC in Generic mode still look better than a Retro Tink 2x or might I get the results I'm looking for from the Tink?
Thank you!
If you like the smoothing filter then you're better off with one of the RetroTink devices.

OSSC is more for gaming with the original unfiltered image. I could also be wrong but I think there's some additional tweaking that you need to do with the Firebrand profiles - not sure if you're supposed to be in 'Generic' modes, maybe the Optimal timings. Additionally also try Line 3X and/or Line 5X if your TV supports it along with setting your TV to a 'Game' or 'Graphics' mode.
radiomike31
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by radiomike31 »

CobraKing wrote:
radiomike31 wrote:I'm currently using RGB Scart cables to connect almost all of my consoles to the OSSC to output to my Samsung HDTV. I first tried the FirebrandX profiles but wasn't happy with the results, so I am just using generic mode for each system. It looks ok, but I'm kind of underwhelmed still. I've tried posting in forums for help and using the JunkerHQ wiki, but I can't get a picture I like. Does anyone think that I might have decent results with a Retro Tink 2x Scart?
I like what I've seen the smoothing filter do.
I guess my question is does the OSSC in Generic mode still look better than a Retro Tink 2x or might I get the results I'm looking for from the Tink?
Thank you!
If you like the smoothing filter then you're better off with one of the RetroTink devices.

OSSC is more for gaming with the original unfiltered image. I could also be wrong but I think there's some additional tweaking that you need to do with the Firebrand profiles - not sure if you're supposed to be in 'Generic' modes, maybe the Optimal timings. Additionally also try Line 3X and/or Line 5X if your TV supports it along with setting your TV to a 'Game' or 'Graphics' mode.

Thanks for the tips. I'm actually using 3x and 4x for some consoles but haven't tried game or graphics mode on my TV. Not sure if I have that. I'm going to look tonight!
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Fudoh
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Fudoh »

OSSC is more for gaming with the original unfiltered image.
OSSC is also the processor with the most sophisticated scanline engine. The various scaling modes allow you to use a myriad of different combinations of processor scaling, TV scaling, horizontal scanlines and vertical pixel patterns.
CobraKing
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by CobraKing »

radiomike31 wrote:
CobraKing wrote:
radiomike31 wrote:I'm currently using RGB Scart cables to connect almost all of my consoles to the OSSC to output to my Samsung HDTV. I first tried the FirebrandX profiles but wasn't happy with the results, so I am just using generic mode for each system. It looks ok, but I'm kind of underwhelmed still. I've tried posting in forums for help and using the JunkerHQ wiki, but I can't get a picture I like. Does anyone think that I might have decent results with a Retro Tink 2x Scart?
I like what I've seen the smoothing filter do.
I guess my question is does the OSSC in Generic mode still look better than a Retro Tink 2x or might I get the results I'm looking for from the Tink?
Thank you!
If you like the smoothing filter then you're better off with one of the RetroTink devices.

OSSC is more for gaming with the original unfiltered image. I could also be wrong but I think there's some additional tweaking that you need to do with the Firebrand profiles - not sure if you're supposed to be in 'Generic' modes, maybe the Optimal timings. Additionally also try Line 3X and/or Line 5X if your TV supports it along with setting your TV to a 'Game' or 'Graphics' mode.

Thanks for the tips. I'm actually using 3x and 4x for some consoles but haven't tried game or graphics mode on my TV. Not sure if I have that. I'm going to look tonight!
If it's a newer Samsung TV you definitely have a game mode, I think the graphics mode might only be on SONY TVs.

Start with Line 3X on the OSSC and see if you can go up to 5X.

FirebrandX has YouTube videos documenting this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48FOtofdyxE

Fudoh mentioned it already but play around with the Hybrid Scan lines too.
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BuckoA51
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by BuckoA51 »

radiomike31 wrote:I'm currently using RGB Scart cables to connect almost all of my consoles to the OSSC to output to my Samsung HDTV. I first tried the FirebrandX profiles but wasn't happy with the results, so I am just using generic mode for each system. It looks ok, but I'm kind of underwhelmed still. I've tried posting in forums for help and using the JunkerHQ wiki, but I can't get a picture I like. Does anyone think that I might have decent results with a Retro Tink 2x Scart?
I like what I've seen the smoothing filter do.
I guess my question is does the OSSC in Generic mode still look better than a Retro Tink 2x or might I get the results I'm looking for from the Tink?
Thank you!
It does depend a lot on what you're after. FBX's profiles to me look like an early emulator, too blocky and not CRT like at all.

RetroTINK with filter on the other hand looks like scale 2x on a more recent emulator, still not a look I like, except maybe on very cartoony games like Yoshi's Island just for a novelty.

OSSC generic at 3x or 4x with hybrid scanlines looks the closest to a consumer CRT to my eye. Of course here you're more at the mercy of your TVs scaler for the final result.

Perhaps a less aggressive smoothing filter combined with 5x optimal upscale on OSSC pro would give a result that I would like.. who knows? Having spent the better part of 2 hours last night trying to get ScummVM to look nice (why does such a popular program have such dated scaling options and filters?) rather than just playing the game I just bought I'm not sure I want to be sucked down the rabbit hole of fine tuning each game for absolute pixel perfection :mrgreen:
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
Please check the Wiki before posting about Morph, OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page
CobraKing
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by CobraKing »

@BuckoA51 @Fudoh is it possible to post some Hybrid scanline settings?

There was a good recommendation made in this post well over a year and a half ago and it's probably harder to find.
radiomike31
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by radiomike31 »

CobraKing wrote:@BuckoA51 @Fudoh is it possible to post some Hybrid scanline settings?

There was a good recommendation made in this post well over a year and a half ago and it's probably harder to find.
I really appreciate everyone's suggestions! I'm at 3x and 4x for most of my consoles. What's great is my Samsung seems to accept just about everything I throw at it. I just feel like the 5x looks too "blocky" for my taste. I guess I'm more into that "cartoonish" look that the OSSC isn't necessarily meant for.
However, I would love to try some hybrid scanline settings if you guys could post. @BuckoA51 @Fudoh

Thanks again!
PearlJammzz
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by PearlJammzz »

You can always use the generic profiles if you want a slightly fuzzier look opposed to the sharp pixel perfect look of the FBX profiles. I've never been able to get the hybrid scanlines dialed in as well as I'd like on the OSSC. I'll see if I can get what settings I currently have though and share. I just moved everything so it's not currently hooked up.
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BuckoA51
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by BuckoA51 »

I have the hybrid scanlines set around 33%, I think that compares well to my CRT.
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by strygo »

marqs wrote:Have you tried adjusting sampling phase? Delay between video and sync is different on all those 3 inputs so optimal sampling phase is also different for each.
I've had a chance to do a bit more testing of this setup. Where I've landed in my end-to-end testing is that by introducing additional hops in my setup, the 720p signal is most sensitive to degradation compared to 480p or 240p. The focus of my testing is an Xbox 1.0 outputting RGsB (since it happens to output 720p). Below is an ordering of best to worst:

1. RGsB direct into either AV2 or AV3 with no adjustment needed from the default 720p sync timings.
2. RGsB through a SyncStrike and an Extron MVX into AV3. This saw some minor blurriness with minor adjustment needed to the h sync length.
3. RGsB -> gscartsw (RGBS) -> SyncStrike -> Extron MVX -> AV3. Increased blurriness and minor adjustment needed.
4. (tie) RGsB -> AV1 OSSC.
4. (tie) RGsB -> gscartsw -> AV1 OSSC.

For the bottom two, there is some amount of ghosting/ringing to the image. Adjusting the phase doesn't help, but for both I need to adjust the h. sync length for the image to be properly centered on the display.

So it seems like AV1 is the most destructive to the 720p signal, with either RGsB or RGBS. Is the built-in LPF in AV1 (that from my understanding can't be fully turned off) the culprit for this?

And then I guess generally, is there anything that can be done to avoid degradation of 720p when its sync is converted? Or is this a limitation of the bandwidth needed?
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Harrumph
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Harrumph »

ross wrote:Apologies if this has been asked before, but how come the upsample2x option produces a softer image than pixel doubling when sampling matches the dot clock? Is it something unique to the ADC used here or sampling theory that's beyond my knowledge?
Consider 480p sampling in 2x mode. 858 is optimal sample rate. In both cases (upsample2x or no-upsample2x), signal is sampled at twice the optimal rate (858x2) to achieve the proper pixel clock. In the former case, all samples are kept for the output. In the 2nd case, every other sample is discarded and replaced by repetition of previous pixel. So upsample2x is a closer representation of original analog signal, thus appearing softer.

In other words, upsample 2x works like 240p generic mode, while no-upsample2x works like 240p optimized mode.
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Harrumph
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Harrumph »

ross wrote: is this expected behaviour when sampling analogue video or something that comes down to the quality of the ADC (or something else)?
Yes it is expected. Analog video always has slight (or more than slight) imperfections in the signal. I'm not an electronics engineer, but I've surmised there is variability within the peak values, as well as that rise and decay times necessarily cannot be instantaneous, inducing distortions (overshoot & undershoot) in the signal. Add to that the varying quality of RGB encoders in old consoles. When looking at documentation you can often see (analog) RGB signals depicted as idealized square waves, but in practice, they are not and can never be perfect square waves.

The point of optimized mode is to avoid this variability by only keeping one sample from each peak and then pixel repeat that in the digital realm. This is also why LPF on the analog signal is desirable before digitization, to smooth out high frequency variations on the analog signal.

I really doubt modern ADC chips used in devices like the OSSC would affect this negatively.

As stated, I'm hardly an expert but that's the basic gist of it. I'm sure you can find some examples by googling.
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Blacksheep »

ross, I think you mean (100% red, 0% green, 0% blue) dot, (0% red, 100% green, 0% blue) dot and (0% red, 0% green,100% blue) dot and the same where you are referring to pixels. Just writing that one component is 100% intensity could still allow for the case that all dots or pixels are white.
ross wrote:I would've thought you should still end up with two 100% red pixels, followed by two 100% green pixels, followed by two 100% blue pixels
No, not when you sample at 27MHz and use every sample in the output. And even in your other two cases, the samples are not going to perfectly represent the analogue signal, or the originally digital values.
ross wrote:My question then might be is if upsample2x mode is not outputting two exactly identical RGB values for every two pixels like with pixel repetition
RGB pixels don't consist of one value, they consist of at least three. "Identical" is not gradable. What you meant to write is probably "...is not outputting successive pairs of identical pixels...". Answer: Upsample2x can output differing pixels for every next pixel. But it could also output a whole frame consisting of only the same pixel over and over. It depends on the analogue signal and the analog to digital conversion process.
ross wrote:is this expected behaviour when sampling analogue video or something that comes down to the quality of the ADC
Both. For more see the answer by Harrumph, or Google.
Harrumph wrote:rise and decay times necessarily cannot be instantaneous
Yes—it is physically impossible.

I'm also not an expert in the area though.
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by SavagePencil »

I was looking to do some capture comparisons of component transcoders (I have the two BeharBros Garo units as well as the Retrotink COMP2RGB) and am looking for some guidance. I think I should focus on the original Xbox as it supports 480i, 480p, and 720p.

Questions:
1. Is there a game I should use that has a static screen, but displays enough variance that an apples-to-apples comparison could be done? All of my go-tos (Outrun 2, JSRF, etc.) tend to animate a lot, which may skew objective assessment.

2. If I'm doing capture of 480i, is it better to do a capture with the OSSC set to Bob or Passthru?

3. Is it worth comparing 16:9 vs. 4:3?

4. I've found different optimized OSSC values recommended for the Xbox. Is there a definitive set I can look at?
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Fudoh
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Fudoh »

Doesn't the XBOx have a scaling bug that causes its output to always scaled in some way. I think FirebrandX touched on this a while ago, maybe in one of his videos. For a transcoder test you're MUCH better off using a PS2.
If I'm doing capture of 480i, is it better to do a capture with the OSSC set to Bob or Passthru?
depends on your compressor. If your compression app is doing framebased compression, then you get crosstalk between the fields.
Is it worth comparing 16:9 vs. 4:3?
not really. It's the same resolution for 480i and 480p anyway.
I've found different optimized OSSC values recommended for the Xbox. Is there a definitive set I can look at?
see my initial thought above.
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Gunstar
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Gunstar »

Two new OSSC cases on the way:

Todd Gill's design
Image
Image

Work in progress case from Greg Collins
Image
Image
SavagePencil
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by SavagePencil »

Fudoh wrote:Doesn't the XBOx have a scaling bug that causes its output to always scaled in some way. I think FirebrandX touched on this a while ago, maybe in one of his videos. For a transcoder test you're MUCH better off using a PS2.
One of the areas that I'm interested in is validating that the transcoders accurately compensate for Rec 601 and 709. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 480p does 601 and 720p does 709, right? And AFAIK the PS2 is capped at 480p. So that was a consideration for using the Xbox. I guess if this was truly a concern, I could do the Xbox 360 with component cables.
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orange808
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by orange808 »

SavagePencil wrote:
Fudoh wrote:Doesn't the XBOx have a scaling bug that causes its output to always scaled in some way. I think FirebrandX touched on this a while ago, maybe in one of his videos. For a transcoder test you're MUCH better off using a PS2.
One of the areas that I'm interested in is validating that the transcoders accurately compensate for Rec 601 and 709. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 480p does 601 and 720p does 709, right? And AFAIK the PS2 is capped at 480p. So that was a consideration for using the Xbox. I guess if this was truly a concern, I could do the Xbox 360 with component cables.
A proper test pattern generator or video processor would make more sense. Also, this needs its own thread. It's wildly off topic.
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Fudoh
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Fudoh »

One of the areas that I'm interested in is validating that the transcoders accurately compensate for Rec 601 and 709. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 480p does 601 and 720p does 709, right? And AFAIK the PS2 is capped at 480p. So that was a consideration for using the Xbox. I guess if this was truly a concern, I could do the Xbox 360 with component cables.
right, 480p is 601. PS2 can also do 1080i on a handful of titles (GT4 I think), but I don't know if the system honors the (thoretically) mandatory 709 encoding for 1080i.

But especially in terms of sharpness and pixel definition the PS2 is quite a step ahead of the XBox, so when looking at transcoder quality (which can cause a very slight horizontal loss in definition) it's good to have a really clean source.
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by SavagePencil »

orange808 wrote:A proper test pattern generator or video processor would make more sense. Also, this needs its own thread. It's wildly off topic.
Ah true. I started it here hoping for the correct OSSC settings for Xbox in the various resolutions. Which, to stay on topic, I'd still love to find!
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by strygo »

SavagePencil wrote:Ah true. I started it here hoping for the correct OSSC settings for Xbox in the various resolutions. Which, to stay on topic, I'd still love to find!
Please share the timings if you find a definitive source. In my testing, they seemed to be close to the standard timings for 480p/720p, with minor adjustments needed depending on which AV port I'm using.

It's worth noting that in my ongoing testing of Xbox RGsB and the OSSC, I mentioned recently in this thread that I noticed some degradation when using the gscartsw to convert the RGsB to RGBS. I did some more testing with an Extron 201 rxi and found the results from that device to the OSSC to be significantly better. The ghosting I previously reported was gone.
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Fudoh
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Fudoh »

Sometimes, when going through a lot of different sources, I end up with lots of visible jitter (like an unstable sync signal). Looks similar to using a noisy source without enabling the LPF.

I first thought this was power supply related, since swapping the PSU did seem to help, but I don't seem able to pinpoint the problem. It's unlikely that the source itself changes it's signal output quality. The changing factors are converters or cables used and lots of different power supplies for lots of different converters.

Any ideas on what might be the issue? It's not exactly subtle, so if you encountered this before, you'd remember.

UPDATE:

It's the Allow TVP HPLL2x option that's causing the trouble. Off is always fine. With ot ON I run into a 50% chance of getting strong visible jitter. This is true for both 480i and 240p inputs (currently on the AV3 input and using 480p output). What's the advantage of this setting set to ON ?
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by headlesshobbs »

Controls whether video digitizer H-PLL uses 2x sampling clock internally on supported video modes.

On: Enables 2x H-PLL, generally reducing jitter at the price of inaccurate sampling phase due to internal bug. [default]
Off: Disables 2x H-PLL, which might help with Line5x stability.
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Fudoh
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Fudoh »

seems a bit weird that it defaults to ON, doesn't it ?
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by marqs »

Fudoh wrote:seems a bit weird that it defaults to ON, doesn't it ?
Now that most 15kHz presets use 2x sampling natively (every other sample discarded by FPGA), the 2x H-PLL option for digitizer is not as necessary as with older firmwares. It should not still cause problems with generic presets where random 180deg phase offset is somewhat acceptable, although for de-facto 480i in Line2x (or line4x without upsample2x) generic presets are essentially optimal.
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Guile »

In the PS2 game Klonoa 2 I lose sync for a second or two on the OSSC and its light turns red whenever the scene transitions. I'm using 480i line4x and allow upsample2x. This doesn't happen with other scalers I have tested with the same game but it looks much better using the OSSC. Is there anything I can do to fix this issue?
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by RocketBelt »

I think the game just drops sync when it is loading. If you are using Open PS2 Loader then Klonoa 2 works best from USB using modes 1 and 6, where the sync drops are less frequest and shorter.
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by jdawg131 »

I received my OSSC this past Sunday, and have been in heaven. I have it connected to a Hisense H9G (4K) and it works with damn near every setting that I've tried with the OSSC. My 240p consoles work perfectly with Line3x (I prefer 720p with scanlines), and my 480p consoles (Dreamcast and Wii) work great with the "Allow upsample2x" setting. Line2x didn't work for 480i from my two PS2s (1x USA and 1x JPN), but Line3x (although text is super jumpy) and Line4x do. All of the consoles, other than the PS2, clearly look better on the OSSC compared my old XRGB Mini. DOA2 Hard*Core looks particularly pixelated, but Hyper Street Fighter II, PES 4, and WWE Smackdown! Shut Your Mouth looked fine.

I've been so impressed over the past few days that I actually listed my XRGB Mini for sale on eBay this morning. I didn't think that I'd ever part with it. I'll miss the proper 480i deinterlacing, but it's not worth keeping (just for the PS2...) when it's selling for $500+ on the second hand market these days.

BUCKOA51 - I can't thank you enough. I placed my order on Monday evening, and it was shipped out first thing Tuesday morning. It arrived in Richmond on Thursday. Too bad DHL held the package until Sunday. It was also well packaged. Thanks again man.
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by RottenToTheGore »

Someone on the VGP forums mentioned that the OSSC in passthrough had a terrible image with 4:3 content, like the aspect ratio was way off.

Which got me thinking, is there anything 4:3 that would have any reason to be used with passthrough on the OSSC? Only thing I can think of would be if you'd rather not use it's deinterlacing.
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