OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

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thebigcheese
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by thebigcheese »

It's also not really true that "most" games on PS4 Pro are above 1080p. Especially if we are considering games that target 60 fps. I'd wager about half actually keep it at 1080p to stick to 60 FPS. Maybe less so for the Xbox One X, but certainly that is true for the Pro. Anyway, as others have mentioned, there's really no reason to have a 4K OSSC. Even my cheap TCL seems to effectively integer scale 1080p content to 4K, so the pixels stay nice and sharp. Possibly ever so slightly less sharp than if it was native 4K, but the difference is negligible. Heck, even a top of the line PC can barely handle 4K @ 60 FPS for most games. Just not worth chasing at this point. We are, after all, scaling content that was originally produced at 240-480p.
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ASDR
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by ASDR »

thebigcheese wrote:It's also not really true that "most" games on PS4 Pro are above 1080p.
AAA games not supporting anything better than 1080p on the Pro are very much the exception. Some games have a performance mode where they stick to 1080p, indie games and games that do not really focus on graphics much might not bother with a version for the half step consoles, but you can pretty much count on any high-budget graphics pushing AAA release offering some kind of >1080p resolution for Pro and 4k display users. Dirt Rally 2.0 is one of the few exceptions in recent days that I can think of.
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orange808
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by orange808 »

Dreamcast has 960p as 1080p with underscan.

I want that.

I'd purchase a new line doubler and abandon the OSSC (line doubling) entirely if I could just get 960p as 1080p with underscan.

--------------

Also:

After my latest Garo experience, I also really wish I could buy additional upgraded OSSC's for all my transcoding needs. We really need analog output and a low pass filter on the HD15.

I'd gladly pay a little extra to buy extra units with line doubling features I'm not using. I need transcoders that work right. I'm tired of all these old rare expensive Extrons and Kramers. Behar Bros also shit the bed with Garo. It would also be nice to use an OSSC as a sync and "centering" box and throw out those old picky Extron RGB boxes.

4k can wait. Add 960p in a 1080p frame, analog out, and a LPF on the HD15. I'll buy four of them.

I don't care if the new design would be a little pricey. It would work right and eliminate the need to shop for old gear or poorly engineered community stuff. "Line multiplier/universal transcoder/sync and color space converter" has a great ring to it.
We apologise for the inconvenience
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Xyga
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

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orange808 now: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by nmalinoski »

orange808 wrote:I'd purchase a new line doubler and abandon the OSSC (line doubling) entirely if I could just get 960p as 1080p with underscan.
You can get 960p windowboxed to 1080p with a DCHDMI, and it's straight to HDMI--no digital to analogue to digital conversion, no extra hardware besides a MiniHDMI to HDMI cable/adapter, and it doesn't affect or block the analogue output, so you could still use that output for CRTs.
orange808 wrote:After my latest Garo experience, I also really wish I could buy additional upgraded OSSC's for all my transcoding needs. We really need analog output and a low pass filter on the HD15.
What's the reason for wanting an LPF on AV3? Would that be so we can start to move from comparatively-expensive SCART to comparatively-inexpensive DE-15 for our analogue video needs?

I'm not sure that's possible with the current hardware; I've been under the impression that AV3's limitations (lack of LPF, plus requiring 5Vp-p sync and clean separate or composite sync, not capable of stripping composite or luma) have to do with one of the chips not being able to do something to the effect of LPF and bring down TTL sync. (marqs could better speak to this.)
orange808 wrote:I need transcoders that work right. I'm tired of all these old rare expensive Extrons and Kramers. Behar Bros also shit the bed with Garo. It would also be nice to use an OSSC as a sync and "centering" box and throw out those old picky Extron RGB boxes.
(Fair warning: I got carried away here.)

I agree that we need some new community hardware to combat the dwindling availability of transcoders. So far, the only analogue transcoders that are really still available are RGB to YPbPr transcoders, which is great for people like me who are only really dealing with consumer CRTs in the US, where RGB isn't really a thing, but not for people trying to use YPbPr sources on RGB-only monitors, like PVMs and BVMs, or those who have decided to standardize their videogaming setups on RGB.

YPbPr to RGB transcoders aren't really available, nor are RGB sync converters outside of used and discontinued (but still currently affordable) gear on eBay, and most of these transcoders/converters don't have centering controls.

I'm sure a new, community-developed device could be built, but what would an Open Source Transcoder look like? Would it have a single DE-15 input and a single DE-15 output, which could convert between any of the most common video and sync formats with the right adapters?

Or would it take a page the BeharBros products and go modular for I/O? A header and dongle/daughterboard setup, in my opinion, would mean maximum flexibility for input and output formats.

Imagine a single transcoder module that could accept and simultaneously transcode/decode/encode to any of CVBS, YC, YPbPr, RGsB, RGBS, RGBHV. It could have identical, generic input and output headers (keyed so that they can only be inserted upright), where each header has pins for all of CVBS, luma (SD only), chroma, luma (SD to HD), Pb, Pr, Red, Green, Blue, composite sync (1Vp-p), composite sync (5Vp-p), horizontal sync, and vertical sync, plus multiple grounds[1]; maybe a mode pin or two, and maybe a pin for 3.3V or 5V power.

This approach--decoupling physical I/O formats from the PCB and keeping each unique signal separate--would allow the user to simply wire the I/O for their application, like how you can get RGBS or RGBHV from an Extron RGB interface simply by changing your wiring. Also, by providing all formats on the input and output connectors, the device could accommodate both single-format dongles (just CVBS RCA, or just RGB SCART), to keep things neat, or multi-format daughterboards (PCBs with any or all of CVBS, YC, YPbPr, and RGB), for those who need more comprehensive applications or need simultaneous output; and, because input and output use the same connector format, the same dongles and daughterboards would be usable on both input and output!

Additionally, by keeping all those video lines separate, we can avoid leaking current down other connected video lines (a problem with the current RT2X). This includes maintaining separate luma pins for YC and YPbPr, which also need to be separated to keep ED/HD sources ED/HD on the YPbPr and RGB outputs, while downscaling/encoding it for the YC output. (If this were an SD-only application, then, by all means, share the luma pin.)

On top of that, you have your choice of sync signal. Your consumer TV doesn't like clean sync? Wire your SCART output for sync-on-composite!

For RGB, I'm thinking you'd have to have your choice of DE-15/BNC or SCART, not both, at least for a passive adapter; the reason being that the RGB outputs would only be amped for a single output. Additionally, one mode pin on the output side could be bridged to signal to the device which sync voltage should be providing (1Vp-p or 5Vp-p); SCART dongles could not bridge it to get 1Vp-p, where DE-15 and BNC dongles would bridge the pin to get 5Vp-p.

A daughterboard that includes both SCART and RGB would probably have to have electronics that could switch between an input mode (toggling between the two sets of RGB) and an output mode (distribution amp for splitting the RGB signals and ensuring that each output has the correct sync voltage); a second mode pin could be bridged on the transcoder's output header to signal to these electronics which side of the transcoder they're connected to so they know which operation mode to use.

Building on that, if we're providing power to input and output boards, it would be possible to build distribution-amp boards to provide 2 or more of the same output connector type. Want to drive 3 VGA monitors simultaneously? You could do that. If the same board were to accommodate input as well, though, it would have to have its own input switch to determine which signal to send to the transcoder.

As far as input selection between the dongle/daughterboard and the transcoder, I would make it automatic by default. If you're using a single-I/O dongle, the device could easily determine which input it's being fed (and keeping YPbPr and RGsB separate means no manual toggling). When using a daughterboard, the transcoder would pick one using its automatic routine, and there'd probably have to be a button on it somewhere to cycle through inputs.


Notes:
1. Multiple ground pins for isolation, like how RGBS is segregated from CVBS/YC with a pair of ground pins on the Nintendo AV Multi-Out; might be off-base with this one.
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Galdelico
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Galdelico »

Hi guys, is the firmware update featuring fully adjustable scanlines still in the making?

If so, I was wondering if you can already give me a rough idea of what it will change or improve, over the current situation. I use scanlines with all my systems and every video mode, but - due to my monitor's limited scaling capabilities - I can only rely on Line Double, to display even and thick scanlines. In Line3/5x they look thin and sharp, and in all honesty I don't like the effect at all, whereas in Line4x they appear uneven and produce nasty horizontal patterns on screen. So, I'm just curious to know if this is ever gonna change, with my setup.

Thanks in advance. ^_-
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marqs
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by marqs »

DirkSwizzler wrote:
marqs wrote:Even 4k capable FPGAs cost a lot. Also, design tools for these higher-end FPGAs are not typically free but cost thousands of dollars, and HDMI IP needed for outputting signal directly from FPGA transceivers can easily cost the same amount.
Out of curiousity, how many thousands? Is this the most blocking issue for potential pursuit of OSSC 4K?
Around $4k for Quartus Pro + unknown sum for HDMI IP (it's not clearly stated whether it's part of the free IP suite, probably not). That's a barrier for any new developer so it'd be problematic from the perspective of an open-source project.
Galdelico wrote:Hi guys, is the firmware update featuring fully adjustable scanlines still in the making?

If so, I was wondering if you can already give me a rough idea of what it will change or improve, over the current situation. I use scanlines with all my systems and every video mode, but - due to my monitor's limited scaling capabilities - I can only rely on Line Double, to display even and thick scanlines. In Line3/5x they look thin and sharp, and in all honesty I don't like the effect at all, whereas in Line4x they appear uneven and produce nasty horizontal patterns on screen. So, I'm just curious to know if this is ever gonna change, with my setup.
With OSD it's among the major remaining scheduled new features, but unfortunately I haven't had much time to progress those lately. The premise is fairly simple, so instead of a single intensity adjustment, the feature would allow freely adjusting intensity of the 1-5 sub-line overlay (and maybe also columns for optimized modes). The interval could be configurable as well, at least for 480p to enable suitable overlay for pre-linedoubled 240p content. I'm not sure if the changes would help much in cases where display's scaling produces ill efects, though.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by maxtherabbit »

I posted about it on VGP forum, but since marqs is here - there is a bug in the latest firmware (possibly others too, I don't know) where the "auto" LPF setting does not apply the 36MHz filter to 720p or 1080i over component inputs. I can clearly see a difference using an original xbox between setting it to auto and "HDTV I"
Last edited by maxtherabbit on Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ASDR
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by ASDR »

maxtherabbit wrote:I posted about it on VGP forum, but since marqs is here - there is a bug in the latest firmware (possibly others too, I don't know) where the "auto" LPF setting does not apply the 36MHz filter to 720p over component inputs. I can clearly see a difference using an original xbox between setting it to auto and "HDTV I"
Really... that's interesting, thanks for letting us know.

btw, what is the filter cutoff for 1080i? Need to have best quality for GT4 :D
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by maxtherabbit »

ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:I posted about it on VGP forum, but since marqs is here - there is a bug in the latest firmware (possibly others too, I don't know) where the "auto" LPF setting does not apply the 36MHz filter to 720p over component inputs. I can clearly see a difference using an original xbox between setting it to auto and "HDTV I"
Really... that's interesting, thanks for letting us know.

btw, what is the filter cutoff for 1080i? Need to have best quality for GT4 :D
1080i would be the same one, HDTV I
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Galdelico
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Galdelico »

marqs wrote:With OSD it's among the major remaining scheduled new features, but unfortunately I haven't had much time to progress those lately. The premise is fairly simple, so instead of a single intensity adjustment, the feature would allow freely adjusting intensity of the 1-5 sub-line overlay (and maybe also columns for optimized modes). The interval could be configurable as well, at least for 480p to enable suitable overlay for pre-linedoubled 240p content. I'm not sure if the changes would help much in cases where display's scaling produces ill efects, though.
I see, thanks for replying.

In all honesty, not a huge deal for me personally - should that not help with Line4x - as I'm perfectly happy with optimized Line Double for 240p and even 480i content (I'm in love with Line2x bob and robust scanlines since day one really). That said, I'm still looking forward to see if the new features will make any difference nonetheless.
Thanks again! ^_-
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ASDR
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by ASDR »

maxtherabbit wrote:[
1080i would be the same one, HDTV I
Duh, obviously, why did I need to ask :D

At least on the PS2 I can't tell any difference whatsoever between Auto, Off, EDTV, HD1 & HD2. GT4's 1080i is only a trick to get 540 lines out of the PS2, though. Not the full horizontal resolution, so that might explain it. I unfortunately no longer have my component-only 360 hooked up but I'll try to disable 720p on my OGXB and see if there's any difference in 1080i supporting games there.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by maxtherabbit »

ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:[
1080i would be the same one, HDTV I
Duh, obviously, why did I need to ask :D

At least on the PS2 I can't tell any difference whatsoever between Auto, Off, EDTV, HD1 & HD2. GT4's 1080i is only a trick to get 540 lines out of the PS2, though. Not the full horizontal resolution, so that might explain it. I unfortunately no longer have my component-only 360 hooked up but I'll try to disable 720p on my OGXB and see if there's any difference in 1080i supporting games there.
if you're trying to determine whether the bug also extends to 1080i, I've done that and it does

"auto" is not applying the HDTV I filter to 720p or 1080i
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ASDR
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by ASDR »

maxtherabbit wrote:if you're trying to determine whether the bug also extends to 1080i, I've done that and it does

"auto" is not applying the HDTV I filter to 720p or 1080i
Way ahead of me :D

How can you visually tell between the I & II filters on a 720p signal? Presumably applying II or none would at worst result in some additional noise. On the PS2 I can't really see any, Hm.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by maxtherabbit »

ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:if you're trying to determine whether the bug also extends to 1080i, I've done that and it does

"auto" is not applying the HDTV I filter to 720p or 1080i
Way ahead of me :D

How can you visually tell between the I & II filters on a 720p signal? Presumably applying II or none would at worst result in some additional noise. On the PS2 I can't really see any, Hm.
I can tell because my original xbox using the OEM HD pack has some nice fixed pattern color noise that comes through without the correct filter

it's a feature :lol:
H6rdc0re
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by H6rdc0re »

I have got a few ideas for a future firmware update:
1. Ability to name a profile similar to XRGB Mini for easy profile recognition.
2. New 352x240p and 384x240p optimal modes for Capcom fighting games on Saturn and Playstation.
3. Ability to optimize 256x240p, 320x240p, 352x240p, 384x240p and 512x240p optimal modes on a single profile.
4. Ability to use multiple sampling phases on a single profile.
5. Option for a low-pass filter on the AV3 input if possible.

The last two abilities would allow users to optimize every output resolution per console basis on a single profile.
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ASDR
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by ASDR »

H6rdc0re wrote:I have got a few ideas for a future firmware update:
1. Ability to name a profile similar to XRGB Mini for easy profile recognition.
2. New 352x240p and 384x240p optimal modes for Capcom fighting games on Saturn and Playstation.
3. Ability to optimize 256x240p, 320x240p, 352x240p, 384x240p and 512x240p optimal modes on a single profile.
4. Ability to use multiple sampling phases on a single profile.
5. Option for a low-pass filter on the AV3 input if possible.

The last two abilities would allow users to optimize every output resolution per console basis on a single profile.
You can already name profiles if you use the web app (http://pbnl.byethost7.com/ossc/profiles/?i=1), LPF for AV3 would require a hardware change.
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by nmalinoski »

Would it be possible for the OSSC to determine or make assumptions about which console and/or internal rendering resolution is being used based on quirks and/or precise measurement of vertical and horizontal refresh rates, and then use that information to automatically apply these optimized modes?
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by H6rdc0re »

ASDR wrote:
H6rdc0re wrote:I have got a few ideas for a future firmware update:
1. Ability to name a profile similar to XRGB Mini for easy profile recognition.
2. New 352x240p and 384x240p optimal modes for Capcom fighting games on Saturn and Playstation.
3. Ability to optimize 256x240p, 320x240p, 352x240p, 384x240p and 512x240p optimal modes on a single profile.
4. Ability to use multiple sampling phases on a single profile.
5. Option for a low-pass filter on the AV3 input if possible.

The last two abilities would allow users to optimize every output resolution per console basis on a single profile.
You can already name profiles if you use the web app (http://pbnl.byethost7.com/ossc/profiles/?i=1), LPF for AV3 would require a hardware change.
I knew about the web app but didn't know the OSSC would display the profile name created. Thanks for that.

I have another idea for a future update:
Force scanlines on progressive signals only (240/288p, 384p and 480p/576p).
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ASDR
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by ASDR »

nmalinoski wrote:Would it be possible for the OSSC to determine or make assumptions about which console and/or internal rendering resolution is being used based on quirks and/or precise measurement of vertical and horizontal refresh rates, and then use that information to automatically apply these optimized modes?
I bring this up every time stuff like binding profiles to inputs and such is discussed. I'd love to be able to automatically activate a profile based on signal characteristics. Many consoles already have a very distinct refresh rate (like 60.08 for SNES or 60.28 for PCE), but I bet looking at the different way a particular console implements 240p or signal levels or other things the OSSC has access to from the FPGA could quite reliably identify a great many different sources. The ultimate dream would of course be some kind of 'full automatic' mode where the firmware just ships with a community curated known-good settings or something like Firebrand's FM profiles.
H6rdc0re wrote: I knew about the web app but didn't know the OSSC would display the profile name created. Thanks for that.
I haven't actually tried it, but I'm 99% sure those generic "Profile 1" names or whatever they are are just the generic placeholders for when you haven't set a profile name from the app and it'll display the name you assign there.
rama
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by rama »

nmalinoski wrote:Would it be possible for the OSSC to determine or make assumptions about which console and/or internal rendering resolution is being used based on quirks and/or precise measurement of vertical and horizontal refresh rates, and then use that information to automatically apply these optimized modes?
Well, start collecting these characteristics, put them into a table or something.
I could use these in gbscontrol (my GBS 8200 project) as well :)

I already know about the SNES 60.08 refresh rate, and this could be enough to detect it.

For the signal characteristics, I don't think we can use a lot of those.
One problem with them is that the sync signal could be modified, ie: console directly, or passed through a sync stripper.

In the case of Mega Drives (and SNES as well!), the HSync pulse width can vary, depending on the chosen video mode.
I suppose these characteristics could be used as a weak indicator though. So maybe once we're pretty sure of the console, the HSync pulse width could hint at the game's video mode.
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by nmalinoski »

rama wrote:One problem with them is that the sync signal could be modified, ie: console directly, or passed through a sync stripper.
Yes, sync strippers could certainly be a problem, but, if that's the case, I think it would be reasonable to simply state that the autodetection requires the original sync signal.
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by orange808 »

I don't recall the precise SNES/NES refresh rate, but it's my understanding that the OSSC incorrectly reports it.
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sofakng
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by sofakng »

This is somewhat of a cross-post from the gscartsw thread, but I'm having an issue with the gscartsw, OSSC, and my SNES. If I enable sync regeneration on the gscartsw and reset the SNES, the refresh rate is changing on the OSSC anywhere from 59.94 to 60.08. When the refresh rate isn't 60.08, the screen has a significant wobble/shimmer (hard to explain). If I disable sync regeneration then it's always 60.08 Hz.

SuperG said it might have something to do with sync detection on the OSSC but wasn't sure.

Does anybody have any input on the OSSC that might be causing this?
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by thebigcheese »

sofakng wrote:This is somewhat of a cross-post from the gscartsw thread, but I'm having an issue with the gscartsw, OSSC, and my SNES. If I enable sync regeneration on the gscartsw and reset the SNES, the refresh rate is changing on the OSSC anywhere from 59.94 to 60.08. When the refresh rate isn't 60.08, the screen has a significant wobble/shimmer (hard to explain). If I disable sync regeneration then it's always 60.08 Hz.

SuperG said it might have something to do with sync detection on the OSSC but wasn't sure.

Does anybody have any input on the OSSC that might be causing this?
I don't really have any OSSC input, but I can say that I noticed similar things and it's the reason why I don't use sync regeneration. IMO it's better to fix sync at the source than to have the gscartsw do it.
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Jademalo
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Jademalo »

Hey guys, having a bit of trouble and I was hoping someone might be able to shed some light on this.
I'm trying to get a capture setup going for a friend. He has two OSSCs, a Magewell Pro Capture Dual HDMI, and we're trying to capture an NES/SNES/N64.

No matter what we do, we can't get the OSSC to capture properly. We always end up with an image that flickers like crazy.
We've tried all manner of configuration on the OSSC. Default, 858 active, 640/720/768, custom SNES timings, the works. Every single setup results in exactly the same flickering. We've also tried HDMI ITC, DVI mode, full TX setup, and anything else like that. We've tried various sync settings, but nothing seems to affect the result.

When the OSSC is plugged into a monitor, it works absolutely fine.
This issue persists across the NES, SNES, and N64, which makes me think it's something on the capture card end.

We've tried driver updates, firmware updates, anything else I can think of. I've tried it in OBS and VirtualDub, and we get the same result on both.
Checking the filter options for the capture card, it seems to be locking the signal absolutely fine at 60.11fps and at the correct resolution. However, the preview and capture is flickering like crazy.

Any ideas? I was under the impression that this capture card was able to capture the OSSC fantastically, but it's having issues even with the to spec default mode.
Thanks!
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by nmalinoski »

Jademalo wrote:Checking the filter options for the capture card, it seems to be locking the signal absolutely fine at 60.11fps and at the correct resolution. However, the preview and capture is flickering like crazy.
This should be 60.08Hz for NES and SNES. (Unfortunately, I don't recall the N64's output.)
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Jademalo
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Jademalo »

Hmm, then that's a bit strange. I was under the belief that it was meant to be 60.10-60.11.
Having said that, I don't believe this to be the root of the issue since the N64 suffers from the same problem, and that has a much more normal NTSC refresh rate.
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NormalFish
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by NormalFish »

Have you tried using AmaRec? I couldn't get OBS to work with the OSSC, but AmaRec was able to do the job. Had to fuck around with various 480i/480p/30/60 whatever settings for a while to get it to a point it was happy, but it worked.
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Jademalo
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Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Jademalo »

That's a consideration, but I'd really like to try and prevent adding in extra steps and complications. AmaRec isn't the most lightweight or stable of applications after all, plus I was having this issue with VirtualDub so I have a feeling it wouldn't help.
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