OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[FBX]

I made an image comparison of the OSSC being fed into the VP50 for those interested in seeing the difference compared to the Framemeister.

Both versions use the same SNES unit, and both are set to 5X v-scale with AR applied (I used Artemio's overscan test to dial in 5x scale on the VP50).

Spoiler

So obviously the VP50 doesn't look anywhere near as clear, but you do get about a half-frame faster response time, and due to how the VP50 scales, you don't have to worry about dialing in perfect integers of the source feed. For me though, I love clean pixels, and the VP50's PQ just puts me off. But as Fudoh said, it's because it was designed for video rather than graphics.

[Fudoh]

Is this with the OSSC set to 480p or 720p output ?

but you do get about a half-frame faster response time

you gain a little more than a full frame (6-7ms vs. 24ms).

[RGB0b]

So I recieved my new Vizio 75" series display today and boy this thing is pretty mind blowing. I can sit here and tell you about Dolby Vision and HDR10, but the scope of this thread is the OSSC. I tested it out with the Sega Saturn in line triple mode and it with the TVs FALD I can honestly say this rivals CRT in terms of response time and contrast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrcFt8WNAIw

Good news that it works in linetriple mode. I'm still thinking of getting one of the D-Series, but need to sell my old TV first. Do you have any equipment to do a lag test on it? I'd love to see the exact amount of lag it's actually getting.

[ZellSF]

I actually had to look and think for a while before seeing the difference. The right one is slightly blurrier and has some slight ringing so I assume that's the DVDO one.

That comparison has actually convinced me not to try to fit my XRGB-mini in my setup, for a full frame of lag a that minimal image quality difference isn't worth it to me.

[NormalFish]

I actually had to look and think for a while before seeing the difference. The right one is slightly blurrier and has some slight ringing so I assume that's the DVDO one.

That comparison has actually convinced me not to try to fit my XRGB-mini in my setup, for a full frame of lag a that minimal image quality difference isn't worth it to me.

That's minimal? Are we looking at the same comparison?

[ZellSF]

I actually had to look and think for a while before seeing the difference. The right one is slightly blurrier and has some slight ringing so I assume that's the DVDO one.

That comparison has actually convinced me not to try to fit my XRGB-mini in my setup, for a full frame of lag a that minimal image quality difference isn't worth it to me.

That's minimal? Are we looking at the same comparison?

Yes? Look aside from the brightness difference (color range mismatch in capture setup?), sit with that picture at a reasonable viewing distance (and remember that's not supposed to be fullscreen, but 1/4th of the screen). Also consider that the part of the picture you're looking at will most of the time be in motion.

Yes it's easy to tell in a close up on a computer monitor. While playing a game on a TV? I don't think there's a major difference.

[marqs]

If I understand correctly, the OSSC does not work with composite, it needs RGB.
So if I want to use an unmodded PAL N64 with OSSC, I need to use a converter or RGB-Mod with the console?
So connecting the N64 with SCART to the OSSC will not work, or am I misunderstanding something?
Any help is appreciated.

Correct, there's no composite support.

where can I order the pre-built OSSC?
(Sorry if this has been previously mentioned in one of the 50 pages of posts)

You'll need to subscribe VGP newsletter to get into the reservation queue.

Yeah, it stinks that input lag is something that only a tiny fraction of game players care about, and we're an even smaller portion of the TV consumer base in general. It doesn't seem like we'll ever get TV's that try to approach the low input lag of gaming monitors

Unfortunately TVs today are made for masses more than ever. It's been quite sad to see the price race to the bottom, image quality/processing perfomance getting overshadowed by smart TV / connectivity features, death of Pioneer & Panasonic plasmas etc.

[NormalFish]

Yes? Look aside from the brightness difference (color range mismatch in capture setup?), sit with that picture at a reasonable viewing distance (and remember that's not supposed to be fullscreen, but 1/4th of the screen). Also consider that the part of the picture you're looking at will most of the time be in motion.

Yes it's easy to tell in a close up on a computer monitor. While playing a game on a TV? I don't think there's a major difference.

I exclusively game on a PC monitor at about 2 feet from the screen, so perhaps my standards for such things are abnormally high. That comparison is night and day to me.

[Bahn Yuki]

Disappointing to hear that it has more lag in 4:4:4 sampling mode, if I understood that correctly. Other than that sounds like a really nice set. Are there integer scaling options?

Yeah, it stinks that input lag is something that only a tiny fraction of game players care about, and we're an even smaller portion of the TV consumer base in general. It doesn't seem like we'll ever get TV's that try to approach the low input lag of gaming monitors

The Vizio D 4K series has a lag rating of 13.5ms which is less than a frame. It lacks WCG and HDR which is why I went with the Vizio P series. I am hoping the guy from RetroRGB picks up this set(65" for $900) and tests the OSSC on it. I'm thinking there's a high chance it will support the Line Triple mode, but I'd rather get real confirmation before telling people to go buy that TV.
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/d-series-4k-2016

[marqs]

The Vizio D 4K series has a lag rating of 13.5ms which is less than a frame. It lacks WCG and HDR which is why I went with the Vizio P series. I am hoping the guy from RetroRGB picks up this set(65" for $900) and tests the OSSC on it. I'm thinking there's a high chance it will support the Line Triple mode, but I'd rather get real confirmation before telling people to go buy that TV.
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/d-series-4k-2016

That's certainly low latency, especially if it's tested via Bodnar tester with the usual method (which gives half-frame too high lag). Does Game mode affect picture quality other than turning off some post processing? From quick check, it doesn't seem to have any strobe / black frame insertion features although they seem to be rare among TVs to be honest.

Both versions use the same SNES unit, and both are set to 5X v-scale with AR applied (I used Artemio's overscan test to dial in 5x scale on the VP50).

Did I understand correctly that both combinations are outputting 1080p so that input gets scaled 5x vertically (cropping a few visible scanlines in the process)? That can certainly look inoptimal if it's first scaled by 2x/3x by OSSC and then via non-integer scaling up to 5x total. Speaking of that, I recall that FM always linedoubles 240p before it's fed to Marvell scaler ASIC, so the processing chain in that case wouldn't be that different. It'd be more of VP50's inability for scale pixel graphics properly then. Maybe I should try implementing line5x feature to see if there's enough juice in the FPGA even if that "1080p" would be even less compatible than linetriple

[RGB0b]

I am hoping the guy from RetroRGB picks up this set(65" for $900) and tests the OSSC on it.

I'm working on it, just gotta get rid of my other TV first. Also, I was planning on getting the VIZIO D40u-D1, which is 40". Does anyone know about OSSC linetriple compatibility for that one?

Maybe I should try implementing line5x feature to see if there's enough juice in the FPGA even if that "1080p" would be even less compatible than linetriple

I'm crossing my fingers that works!!!

[Bahn Yuki]

The Vizio D 4K series has a lag rating of 13.5ms which is less than a frame. It lacks WCG and HDR which is why I went with the Vizio P series. I am hoping the guy from RetroRGB picks up this set(65" for $900) and tests the OSSC on it. I'm thinking there's a high chance it will support the Line Triple mode, but I'd rather get real confirmation before telling people to go buy that TV.
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/d-series-4k-2016

That's certainly low latency, especially if it's tested via Bodnar tester with the usual method (which gives half-frame too high lag). Does Game mode affect picture quality other than turning off some post processing? From quick check, it doesn't seem to have any strobe / black frame insertion features although they seem to be rare among TVs to be honest.

I don't notice any loss in image quality while "Game Low Latency" mode is on. However your motion interpolation(Reduce Judder) is locked out. As for strobing my P series has something called "Clear Action" which strobes the backlight for better motion blur handling. I've used it in Street Fighter V and couldn't tell a difference aside from the screen getting dimmer. While my friends couldn't see the strobing, I could. It didn't bother me but it's noticable in Street Fighter V in 4K@60hz. Now for 1080p@120hz I couldn't see the strobing anymore, but that was also playing DOOM.

Anyway I just want to state I don't own any stock in Vizio and don't want to sound like I'm pushing their brand. I'm merely just sharing what I'm using to play my retro games on the big screens. The OSSC looks rather incredible on my screen and I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I am.

[bobrocks95]

The Vizio D 4K series has a lag rating of 13.5ms which is less than a frame. It lacks WCG and HDR which is why I went with the Vizio P series. I am hoping the guy from RetroRGB picks up this set(65" for $900) and tests the OSSC on it. I'm thinking there's a high chance it will support the Line Triple mode, but I'd rather get real confirmation before telling people to go buy that TV.
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/d-series-4k-2016

That's certainly low latency, especially if it's tested via Bodnar tester with the usual method (which gives half-frame too high lag). Does Game mode affect picture quality other than turning off some post processing? From quick check, it doesn't seem to have any strobe / black frame insertion features although they seem to be rare among TVs to be honest.

I don't notice any loss in image quality while "Game Low Latency" mode is on. However your motion interpolation(Reduce Judder) is locked out. As for strobing my P series has something called "Clear Action" which strobes the backlight for better motion blur handling. I've used it in Street Fighter V and couldn't tell a difference aside from the screen getting dimmer. While my friends couldn't see the strobing, I could. It didn't bother me but it's noticable in Street Fighter V in 4K@60hz. Now for 1080p@120hz I couldn't see the strobing anymore, but that was also playing DOOM.

Anyway I just want to state I don't own any stock in Vizio and don't want to sound like I'm pushing their brand. I'm merely just sharing what I'm using to play my retro games on the big screens. The OSSC looks rather incredible on my screen and I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I am.

Any integer scaling options on it since my post got a bit buried?

[BazookaBen]

I've used it in Street Fighter V and couldn't tell a difference aside from the screen getting dimmer. .

I assume you're playing the PC version? Have you tried disabling motion blur?

Guide to do so here: https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetFighter/ ... s_options/

Motion blur, especially the heavy kind in SFV on PC, can mask the clear motion. Also, make sure you're running at 60hz, because 120hz would also hide the effect by strobing twice for every frame (SFV is hard locked to 60fps)

[RocketBelt]

Yes? Look aside from the brightness difference (color range mismatch in capture setup?), sit with that picture at a reasonable viewing distance (and remember that's not supposed to be fullscreen, but 1/4th of the screen). Also consider that the part of the picture you're looking at will most of the time be in motion.

Yes it's easy to tell in a close up on a computer monitor. While playing a game on a TV? I don't think there's a major difference.

I exclusively game on a PC monitor at about 2 feet from the screen, so perhaps my standards for such things are abnormally high. That comparison is night and day to me.

If you sit very close and want to see super sharp 2d pixels then the dvdo is not for you. It does do particularly well with 3d material however, especially if it needs deinterlacing.

[Xyga]

The 50 pro is a different story since it allows direct control of the scaling quality/sharpness.
Though honestly I use it to bring the sharpness down, and sometimes to add a little interpolation too, depending on the source.
Unfiltered-emulator-sharp isn't my thing, so the Pro is basically my custom-softening engine, otherwise I could just wire the OSSC directly to the Sony W6 but it doesn't allow for such fine tuning.

[cfx]

The 50 pro is a different story since it allows direct control of the scaling quality/sharpness.
Though honestly I use it to bring the sharpness down, and sometimes to add a little interpolation too, depending on the source.
Unfiltered-emulator-sharp isn't my thing, so the Pro is basically my custom-softening engine, otherwise I could just wire the OSSC directly to the Sony W6 but it doesn't allow for such fine tuning.

Yeah I can't stand the "pixel mosaic" emulator look, which both of those samples have. I will never be happy with what 240p looks like on a flat panel, but if that was what I had to use I'd certainly have scanlines on.

I think that if the contrast on the VP50 was adjusted where the whites weren't blown out and especially with scanlines, I wouldn't see any significant difference.

[FBX]

Both versions use the same SNES unit, and both are set to 5X v-scale with AR applied (I used Artemio's overscan test to dial in 5x scale on the VP50).

Did I understand correctly that both combinations are outputting 1080p so that input gets scaled 5x vertically (cropping a few visible scanlines in the process)? That can certainly look inoptimal if it's first scaled by 2x/3x by OSSC and then via non-integer scaling up to 5x total. Speaking of that, I recall that FM always linedoubles 240p before it's fed to Marvell scaler ASIC, so the processing chain in that case wouldn't be that different. It'd be more of VP50's inability for scale pixel graphics properly then. Maybe I should try implementing line5x feature to see if there's enough juice in the FPGA even if that "1080p" would be even less compatible than linetriple

It's really just the VP50 looking like crap for scaling graphics. No matter what size or zoom settings, the picture remains the same quality on the VP50 as you see in the pic. But yeah, both the VP50 and Framemeister were set to 1080p output.

Line triple doesn't work on the VP50 (blank screen/no signal), or maybe it does but my TV rejected it. Not sure.

[ZellSF]

Both versions use the same SNES unit, and both are set to 5X v-scale with AR applied (I used Artemio's overscan test to dial in 5x scale on the VP50).

Did I understand correctly that both combinations are outputting 1080p so that input gets scaled 5x vertically (cropping a few visible scanlines in the process)? That can certainly look inoptimal if it's first scaled by 2x/3x by OSSC and then via non-integer scaling up to 5x total. Speaking of that, I recall that FM always linedoubles 240p before it's fed to Marvell scaler ASIC, so the processing chain in that case wouldn't be that different. It'd be more of VP50's inability for scale pixel graphics properly then. Maybe I should try implementing line5x feature to see if there's enough juice in the FPGA even if that "1080p" would be even less compatible than linetriple

It's really just the VP50 looking like crap for scaling graphics. No matter what size or zoom settings, the picture remains the same quality on the VP50 as you see in the pic. But yeah, both the VP50 and Framemeister were set to 1080p output.

Line triple doesn't work on the VP50 (blank screen/no signal), or maybe it does but my TV rejected it. Not sure.

Disable HDCP and Cadence Detection on the OSSC input for both linedouble and linetriple resolutions (settings are stored per resolution).

If that doesn't work, try unlocking framerate in output settings. It's not playable, but it would let you capture how it looks in linetriple for a better comparison.

[RGB0b]

The 50 pro is a different story since it allows direct control of the scaling quality/sharpness.
Though honestly I use it to bring the sharpness down, and sometimes to add a little interpolation too, depending on the source.
Unfiltered-emulator-sharp isn't my thing, so the Pro is basically my custom-softening engine, otherwise I could just wire the OSSC directly to the Sony W6 but it doesn't allow for such fine tuning.

Are there other devices that can take the OSSC's linetriple mode and accomplish the same basic idea (1080p 5x scaling, low lag), but match the sharpness of the Framemeister? Are you saying the VP50 Pro has these features? Is there anything else that's easier to find?

[Xyga]

I haven't looked closely since I was never aiming at an emulator-sharp look anyway, but I'm not sure it can achieve to-the-pixel sharpness either, even using the EE/DE settings.
Or that depends on the set zoom factor in the VP's settings, assuming the source is considered 720p there must be ideal/integer values (wasn't it 10%?).
Sorry I can't check right now as I'm in the middle of moving and everything is still in boxes.
Fudoh could probably tell you more just like that anyway.

PS: remember that OSSC+VP50Pro doesn't work with pure linetripled PAL nor manages 480i quick transitions well, so it's really for working with NTSC/60Hz sources.

[Fudoh]

as mentioned before: due to the better sampling of the OSSC (which results in razor sharp pixel edges compared to the FM) the 720 output of the OSSC is already closer to the FM's 1080p output than to its 720p output. If you feed 720p from the OSSC into a DVDO and rescale the image to 1080p the results are excellent. MUCH closer to the above FM sample than to the above 480p/OSSC/DVDO sample.

240p source -> 720p/OSSC -> 1080p/DVDO is very close to the 480p upscaling of other processors like the Optoma or Crystalio II.

Other users here - including myself, Xyga and Bucko - had no problems with 720p from the OSSC into the DVDO.

Usually I aim for scalined images and here I have no problems with the FM's 720p output or the OSSC's 480p output. For non-scalined images I don't like the integer-tweaked 1080p of the Mini. That's too sharp for me. The DVDO smoothes the OSSC's 720p just to that degree that it looks really stunning without adding any of the ringing seen on FBX's 480p/OSSC/DVDO sample above.

[Xyga]

And to clear doubts if needed the OSSC's 720p looks awesome with an older machine like the VP30 too, but of course there aren't things like EE and DE to modify the picture quality at will, therefore no surprise it's just a convenience super-addon for all the other tasks like connectivity/conversion, pan/scan etc.

Also although I've said the Sony TV doesn't offer PQ tweaking as precise as the VP50Pro's, I haven't actually tried the OSSC directly to it via Component yet (using a transcoder) but I will as soon as I'm done moving and find a little free time.
But from previous experiences with other sources I can just say that in my eyes the Sony engine although excellent with 720p still looks slightly less satisfying that the VP50Pro's after fiddling with its settings.

[Blair]

Are there other devices that can take the OSSC's linetriple mode and accomplish the same basic idea (1080p 5x scaling, low lag), but match the sharpness of the Framemeister? Are you saying the VP50 Pro has these features? Is there anything else that's easier to find?

well I haven't seen anybody mention the DVDO Iscan mini or Iscan micro as possible pairings with the OSSC, I think it would be pretty cool if somebody could try them.

personally I was unable to track down the Iscan mini but I was able to find the Iscan micro. both of them should be much easier to find than any of the older devices and much more affordable as well, especially the micro as it's on sale fairly frequently (I purchased mine for $50)

my initial tests with the micro are actually fairly promising, and I have a good feeling it would work pretty well with the OSSC, even though it's not as versatile as some of the older machines (no menu, no stretching or aspect ratio options) it still does a very good job with progressive sources and odd resolutions.

video quality is rather good, easily matching my edge green in most scenarios with progressive content, and actually surpassing it in some ways (it has a bit less ringing with 480p input then my older units).

it's pretty useless for interlaced video, but it can take it, it just does a really ugly job with it (massive ringing and scanline blur) interestingly enough it acts as a pass-through when it detects to 240p video (so if you're TV supports 240p over HDMI the Mico won't interfere with it or process it) so that's kind of cool.

I didn't detect any real added input lag in my testing (compared to the green) and it has a neat three-step "enhancement' feature that is basically just sharpening. which works well with some systems that have blurrier video output (older Super Nintendo's and the Wii)

the micro supports video output up to 4k (in RGB 4:2:2) and every other progressive resolution under that (in RGB 4:4:4) although all my displays are 1080p so I was unable to test its UHD functionality. (maybe somebody here can give that a try?)

[Fudoh]

For it's scaling alone I wouldn't add a DVDO to the OSSC. I see the main purpose in the added aspect ratio control and other means of fine tuning the picture. The Micro doesn't offer any of these. The Mini offers DE/EE, but the sharpening engines on current TVs have gotten much better over the years, so I don't really see the point.

I'm pretty sure that the 720p incompatibility of many TVs can be solved, by either going analogue or by going analogue and digital again - which is still much cheaper than an additional prcessor.

[ZellSF]

For anyone curious about linedouble vs linetriple & DVDO, comparison images:
http://i.cubeupload.com/FNV1gY.png
http://i.cubeupload.com/CQSVZz.png
Also if anyone is still wondering, GBI ULL works fine with the OSSC.

[Fudoh]

You have VP50, right ? Looks like you're using a sharpness setting of 0. I would try -1 instead and add a little sharpness on the TV's side instead. Using DE/EE that's the same I do on the 50pro.

[Blair]

I'm pretty sure that the 720p incompatibility of many TVs can be solved, by either going analogue or by going analogue and digital again - which is still much cheaper than an additional prcessor.

that sounds a bit convoluted, and seems like it would introduce a lossy image overall. (no offense) the loss of stretching controls isn't really that big a deal in practice, especially on larger screens. (unless you're worried about possible image burn?)

and many TVs have aspect ratio controls built in these days. (at least the Samsung ones do)

however I think the scaling engine on the micro is somewhat improved over the older machines, at least when it comes to graphics from the testing I've done. and if it can aid in compatibility (OSSC) it seems like a much better and less complicated solution then adding a bunch of conversions to the chain. and less confusing overall.

(unless you have a specific set up in mind, have you tested this idea? and if so with what components?)

of course I hope to test the digitizer with all my various equipment. (if I can get my hands one, lol) to see what looks and works best, but if you can find it for a good price, I wouldn't pass up the chance to try it with a micro or mini. (but that's just my opinion).

[ZellSF]

You have VP50, right ? Looks like you're using a sharpness setting of 0. I would try -1 instead and add a little sharpness on the TV's side instead. Using DE/EE that's the same I do on the 50pro.

That's just stock settings for comparison, still haven't set it up properly (if I had I would get rid of those black bars too).

[Blair]

Does anyone else get evenly-spaced columns of blurry pixels with certain systems/resolutions in line-double mode? I get them with Sega Mega Drive, in certain Sega Saturn resolution modes, and with my Sega Model 1/2/3 boards. Presumably the OSSC doesn't like the horizontal resolution for some reason. These weird blurry columns aren't present in line triple mode for some reason, so there's a workaround for every system except my mid-res arcade boards (496X384).

Here's a snap from Virtua Fighter 2 (The effect is hard to capture on camera - note the vertical waves in the blue sky over Kage. Text is effected particularly badly by this.):

I had something similar to that only much stronger (darker lines) when I hooked my Sega Saturn up via RGB/component converter to my Samsung LCD, it was pretty irritating but strangely enough changing power cords (on the Saturn) actually helped and lessened of the effect as well as plugging the component converter into a better plug strip, but the effect wasn't completely gone, until I connected the Saturn to my DVDO edge green, instead of directly to the TV.

now it looks pretty good, especially since the edge green has pretty awesome deinterlacing and VF2 is one of the few Saturn games that use that video mode (most of the other ones seem to be 240p and only use 480i for full-motion video)