OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

The place for all discussion on gaming hardware
User avatar
TooBeaucoup
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:31 am

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by TooBeaucoup »

So here's a question, which I know has been vaguely touched upon in a few areas, but I don't recall what anyone has said about it. I have a Vizio which takes all 5 line modes with ease and displays them great, audio and all. I wanted to run my OSSC through the Framemeister and just use the passthrough mode and go to my Vizio, but no matter what I do, audio cuts in and out, intermittently and sometimes, won't come through at all. I could have sworn I had this working properly a few weeks ago, but now, all of a sudden, it won't. If the Framemeister is simply passing the HDMI signal in and out and doing nothing to it, I don't see why the audio won't pass through properly. I know the OSSC's 3x and higher mode aren't exactly in-spec 720p, but really, it can't simply pass the signal through, unmolested?

EDIT: OK, upon further inspection, I realized, it's only with my SNES. I guess this is just a product of the damn SNES sync issues people have with the OSSC? How annoying! SNES Mini modded for RGB with C-Sync.
CobraKing
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:07 pm

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by CobraKing »

TooBeaucoup wrote:So here's a question, which I know has been vaguely touched upon in a few areas, but I don't recall what anyone has said about it. I have a Vizio which takes all 5 line modes with ease and displays them great, audio and all. I wanted to run my OSSC through the Framemeister and just use the passthrough mode and go to my Vizio, but no matter what I do, audio cuts in and out, intermittently and sometimes, won't come through at all. I could have sworn I had this working properly a few weeks ago, but now, all of a sudden, it won't. If the Framemeister is simply passing the HDMI signal in and out and doing nothing to it, I don't see why the audio won't pass through properly. I know the OSSC's 3x and higher mode aren't exactly in-spec 720p, but really, it can't simply pass the signal through, unmolested?

EDIT: OK, upon further inspection, I realized, it's only with my SNES. I guess this is just a product of the damn SNES sync issues people have with the OSSC? How annoying! SNES Mini modded for RGB with C-Sync.

If the Vizio takes all the OSSC output modes and has no issues with audio, what are you trying to accomplish by introducing the Framemeister (apart from the inherent 1.5 frames of lag)? Just curious as it seems as though you're looking for a problem to your solution.
User avatar
TooBeaucoup
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:31 am

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by TooBeaucoup »

I have about 10 consoles going into the Framemeister, and then the Framemeister goes to my capture device. So I simply wanted to pass the OSSC through the Framemeister passthrough, which shouldn't add any lag, so my OSSC could go into my capture device as well. Rather than having to dig around behind my rack to unplug the Framemeister and plug the OSSC into my capture device. I was just trying to streamline it all so I wasn't having to swap cables in and out.
CobraKing
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:07 pm

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by CobraKing »

TooBeaucoup wrote:I have about 10 consoles going into the Framemeister, and then the Framemeister goes to my capture device. So I simply wanted to pass the OSSC through the Framemeister passthrough, which shouldn't add any lag, so my OSSC could go into my capture device as well. Rather than having to dig around behind my rack to unplug the Framemeister and plug the OSSC into my capture device. I was just trying to streamline it all so I wasn't having to swap cables in and out.
Fair enough if you're just using the HDMI pass-through on the Framemeister. The HDMI audio might be a bug of some sort, so your best bet is to post on the Videogameperfection forums.
User avatar
marqs
Posts: 1034
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:11 pm
Location: Finland

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by marqs »

FBX wrote:My apologies if this has already been asked, but is it possible to add a post-conversion RGB gain menu for YPbPR input? The current implementation adjusts Luma for green and the difference of Luma for red and blue, making it impossible to actually balance the primary colors like you can with the simple gain function for RGB.
Gain and offset adjustments are done before CSC on the digitizer chip which is able to do pre-ADC coarse adjustment and post-ADC fine adjustment. Fine adjustment and subsequent CSC are done in 10bit per component space, but only the highest 8 bits of resulting RGB channels are wired to FPGA. Therefore, gain adjustments on FPGA should be avoided as quality would take a hit, leaving CSC coefficient tweaking as the only viable alternative.
User avatar
Kez
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:09 am

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Kez »

TooBeaucoup wrote:So I simply wanted to pass the OSSC through the Framemeister passthrough, which shouldn't add any lag.
I may be wrong on this but I seem to recall reading that the FM adds lag even in HDMI passrhrough.
User avatar
TooBeaucoup
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:31 am

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Kez wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:So I simply wanted to pass the OSSC through the Framemeister passthrough, which shouldn't add any lag.
I may be wrong on this but I seem to recall reading that the FM adds lag even in HDMI passrhrough.
Does it? I seem to remember reading in a few places that it simply sent it through with no lag, although, everyone seems to say something different when it comes to a lot of the Framemeister's features. That said, if it does add lag, I guess it's not enough to slip me up.
User avatar
Kez
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:09 am

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Kez »

Yeah, you're right - I remembered incorrectly.
User avatar
FBX
Posts: 2347
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:18 am
Location: DFW area, Texas
Contact:

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by FBX »

marqs wrote:Gain and offset adjustments are done before CSC on the digitizer chip which is able to do pre-ADC coarse adjustment and post-ADC fine adjustment. Fine adjustment and subsequent CSC are done in 10bit per component space, but only the highest 8 bits of resulting RGB channels are wired to FPGA. Therefore, gain adjustments on FPGA should be avoided as quality would take a hit, leaving CSC coefficient tweaking as the only viable alternative.
That sucks. Basically if one of the primary colors is off, it can't be adjusted like you can with RGB. If you try to adjust under the YPbPR gain, it doesn't help and instead makes things worse.
nissling
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:12 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by nissling »

TooBeaucoup wrote:
Kez wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:So I simply wanted to pass the OSSC through the Framemeister passthrough, which shouldn't add any lag.
I may be wrong on this but I seem to recall reading that the FM adds lag even in HDMI passrhrough.
Does it? I seem to remember reading in a few places that it simply sent it through with no lag, although, everyone seems to say something different when it comes to a lot of the Framemeister's features. That said, if it does add lag, I guess it's not enough to slip me up.
I just measured the latency on my TV along with my Leo Bodnar both with and without the XRGB-Mini. When HDMI Direct was enabled, there were no differences in measurements whatsoever. In other words you don't need to consider your OCD if you're looking to use your OSSC along with your XRGB-Mini. :)
User avatar
TooBeaucoup
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:31 am

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by TooBeaucoup »

^^^ So it is a pure passthrough, it would seem. Fabulous, indeed!
User avatar
Mantrox
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:03 pm

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Mantrox »

For anybody interested, here's the PC Engine Duo-R running through the OSSC at 5x and captured by an Epiphan DVI2USB 3.0.
Works like a charm.

Epiphan DVI2USB 3.0 Capture Test [PC Engine Duo-R]
I'l post an uncompressed, full RGB video link later, after i change codecs.
xga
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:59 am

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by xga »

Mantrox wrote:For anybody interested, here's the PC Engine Duo-R running through the OSSC at 5x and captured by an Epiphan DVI2USB 3.0.
Works like a charm.

Epiphan DVI2USB 3.0 Capture Test [PC Engine Duo-R]
I'l post an uncompressed, full RGB video link later, after i change codecs.
Looks stunning!
User avatar
marqs
Posts: 1034
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:11 pm
Location: Finland

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by marqs »

TooBeaucoup wrote:^^^ So it is a pure passthrough, it would seem. Fabulous, indeed!
I wouldn't call it pure passthrough as it doesn't maintain Infoframe data, but that shouldn't matter in most setups.
User avatar
Mantrox
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:03 pm

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Mantrox »

Mantrox wrote:For anybody interested, here's the PC Engine Duo-R running through the OSSC at 5x and captured by an Epiphan DVI2USB 3.0.
Works like a charm.

Epiphan DVI2USB 3.0 Capture Test [PC Engine Duo-R]
I'l post an uncompressed, full RGB video link later, after i change codecs.
Here's the link to the uncompressed version.

Removed*

Edit: I messed up the framerate on this one.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Xyga »

Mantrox wrote:Here's the link to the uncompressed version.

Removed*

Edit: I messed up the framerate on this one.
IMHO in x5 you should make the lines darker (at least 50%) therwise the colors bleed too much.
Also make the video a bit shorter so it's not nearly 900Mb, Mega is good but still, it's bit long a download for a peek. ^^
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
DirkSwizzler
Posts: 548
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:23 pm
Location: Bellevue, Washington, USA
Contact:

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by DirkSwizzler »

Halp. I somehow cut my display lag in half once today and have been unable to repeat the result. I didn't touch the settings on my TV between runs.

I've been toying with display lag on my Samsung QN65Q7F. The tv should be hovering around 22ms of lag in game mode according to the display lag database, as well as confirmed with my Leo Bodnar lag tester.

I've been using the NES 240p test suite stopwatch compared against a CRT. Using 5X mode set at 1920x1080 output. For days I've been pretty consistently getting 3.5-4 frames of lag. I've set up game mode on my TV. Turned off anything that looked like an enhancement. And the OSSC isn't going through anything else that scales. Just a ViewHD HDMI splitter, into a ViewHD HDMI switch, into the TV.

I had been scratching my head why I'm getting such high amounts of lag when the Leo Bodnar tester, plugged into the same port with the same TV settings says I should be getting 1/2 - 1/3 the lag.

Well, today I was wiring up some new component cables I got for my XBox and PS2. As well as investigating whether 1080p/60 was giving me an extra frame of lag because the NES was outputting frames at 60.08Hz. I tried switching the OSSC TX Mode to DVI just in case that made the source seem more "pc like" and drop any behavior that locked it to 60hz refresh. The TV should support 120hz native refresh.

I powered up the PS2 to main menu. Powered down. Then the XBox to it's flashed menu (I forget which one) at 1080i and powered down. Then the NES to see if the DVI TX mode had any affect. And it looked like it did! Suddenly I was down to 1.5-2 frames of lag.

I powered off my entire gaming center including the OSSC to see if it was just the DVI TX mode that did the trick. Or if I had done something else to help. The TV is not connected to that power switch and stayed on. After powering back up to the stopwatch I was back to ~4 frames of lag. And toggling DVI TX mode did nothing.

Before and after pictures.

Before the reset:
Image Image

Post reset:
Image Image

Any suggestions of things to try to get back to the low lag state? It seems to me that I somehow either lucked into some exact timing window. Or tricked the TV into refreshing faster than it normally would with 1080p/60.

I scoured the TV setup again for anything that looked like image processing. And ensured game mode was on. Nothing helped.

Now I has a sad again.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Xyga »

I've vaguely seen mention of a bug on some TVs where the low lag of the game mode is gone and doesn't come back until the next power cycle of the TV (don't know if that meant standby or completely off/unplugged)

EDIT/PS: also I might be wrong but I don't trust switches, the OSSC outputs a lot of un-natural signals, who knows what a digital switch in-between could interpret and maybe modify before passing to the TV?
I always wire the OSSC direct to my displays without a single thing in-between.
EDIT#2: nevermind about the TV bug it was on a Sony and actually the other way around; lag would go up after a power cycle.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
Mantrox
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:03 pm

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Mantrox »

Xyga wrote:
Mantrox wrote:Here's the link to the uncompressed version.

Removed*

Edit: I messed up the framerate on this one.
IMHO in x5 you should make the lines darker (at least 50%) therwise the colors bleed too much.
Also make the video a bit shorter so it's not nearly 900Mb, Mega is good but still, it's bit long a download for a peek. ^^
I was thinking about doing just that, yesterday.
I'll shorten up the vid and make the scanlines a tad darker.
I removed the link since i noticed that the software i used to record, somehow was capping the framerate to a value around 44 frames for some reason.

During the weekend i'll probably do a round up capture test of some of the consoles i have on hand and make a thread of this specific capture card.
User avatar
orange808
Posts: 3196
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:43 am

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by orange808 »

DirkSwizzler wrote:Halp. I somehow cut my display lag in half once today and have been unable to repeat the result. I didn't touch the settings on my TV between runs.

I've been toying with display lag on my Samsung QN65Q7F. The tv should be hovering around 22ms of lag in game mode according to the display lag database, as well as confirmed with my Leo Bodnar lag tester.

I've been using the NES 240p test suite stopwatch compared against a CRT. Using 5X mode set at 1920x1080 output. For days I've been pretty consistently getting 3.5-4 frames of lag. I've set up game mode on my TV. Turned off anything that looked like an enhancement. And the OSSC isn't going through anything else that scales. Just a ViewHD HDMI splitter, into a ViewHD HDMI switch, into the TV.

I had been scratching my head why I'm getting such high amounts of lag when the Leo Bodnar tester, plugged into the same port with the same TV settings says I should be getting 1/2 - 1/3 the lag.

Well, today I was wiring up some new component cables I got for my XBox and PS2. As well as investigating whether 1080p/60 was giving me an extra frame of lag because the NES was outputting frames at 60.08Hz. I tried switching the OSSC TX Mode to DVI just in case that made the source seem more "pc like" and drop any behavior that locked it to 60hz refresh. The TV should support 120hz native refresh.

I powered up the PS2 to main menu. Powered down. Then the XBox to it's flashed menu (I forget which one) at 1080i and powered down. Then the NES to see if the DVI TX mode had any affect. And it looked like it did! Suddenly I was down to 1.5-2 frames of lag.

I powered off my entire gaming center including the OSSC to see if it was just the DVI TX mode that did the trick. Or if I had done something else to help. The TV is not connected to that power switch and stayed on. After powering back up to the stopwatch I was back to ~4 frames of lag. And toggling DVI TX mode did nothing.

...

Any suggestions of things to try to get back to the low lag state? It seems to me that I somehow either lucked into some exact timing window. Or tricked the TV into refreshing faster than it normally would with 1080p/60.

I scoured the TV setup again for anything that looked like image processing. And ensured game mode was on. Nothing helped.

Now I has a sad again.
Check your camera. Do you have a global shutter? If you're unsure, it could be a rolling shutter.

If that's a rolling shutter, your results may be inaccurate.

Also, you may want to photograph something stationary (like a building) while moving the camera to discover which "direction" your camera's shutter action "sweeps" as it captures a frame. The building will appear to "lean" because the frame wasn't captured all at once.

If your camera is recording a horizontal line of the image that sweeps vertically from top to bottom over the course of the frame capture, you can create errors. Depending on the speed of the shutter action, the error can be significant. Looking at the placement of your displays in the test, a rolling shutter error issue could be a problem.
Last edited by orange808 on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We apologise for the inconvenience
User avatar
DirkSwizzler
Posts: 548
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:23 pm
Location: Bellevue, Washington, USA
Contact:

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by DirkSwizzler »

orange808 wrote: Check your camera. Do you have a global shutter? If you don't know, it's probably a rolling shutter.

If that's a rolling shutter, your results may be inaccurate.
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind as something to test.

I'm pretty sure it's a rolling shutter (iPhone 6). You can see a diagonal line on the crt between upper right and lower left in most of my shots. Would a rolling shutter really take 32ms to complete? That seems awfully long to capture an object emitting it's own bright light.

Also, the results are consistent between portrait and landscape orientation. I would think if the shutter were that slow I'd notice some kind of quirky difference between the two. I'm not really a camera guy though so that could be irrelevant.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Xyga »

Well, to clear all doubts you should build the sensor dongle and use the OSSC's latency tester.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
DirkSwizzler
Posts: 548
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:23 pm
Location: Bellevue, Washington, USA
Contact:

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by DirkSwizzler »

Xyga wrote:Well, to clear all doubts you should build the sensor dongle and use the OSSC's latency tester.
Probably a good idea. But there's not going to be any way to set it to the same refresh rate of the NES, is there?

It'll gather some data for sure. I'm just not initially convinced the test itself will significantly differ from the leo bodnar tester.

I guess it will help nail down whether switches/splitters are the issue. Which I can also test by removing them.
It will answer if there's some global OSSC <-> TV handshaking quirk, which I can't test any other way.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by Xyga »

All doubts :wink:
OSSC Wiki wrote:Measurement can be made either using internally generated 480p@60Hz timing, or with a real source in any processing mode.
Yeah it probably won't differ much from the LB, off-60Hz and upscaling don't generate any significant latency variations in most cases.
But for what we do if you want to be sure it's the best and most rational test available.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
User avatar
TooBeaucoup
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:31 am

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by TooBeaucoup »

marqs wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:^^^ So it is a pure passthrough, it would seem. Fabulous, indeed!
I wouldn't call it pure passthrough as it doesn't maintain Infoframe data, but that shouldn't matter in most setups.
But, pretty close? :lol:
User avatar
ceramiclion
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:39 pm

Having an Issue with 5X

Post by ceramiclion »

Good day everyone.

I'm having a little issue with the OSSC 5X mode. Recently I got a Samsung U32H850UMN which is able to accept all of the OSSC's outputs with no problem.One thing I did notice is that when I set my OSSC to 5x mode the LCD screen on it loses contrast of the text and I can't see anything until i set it back to 4x again. On the TV side of things the pictures looks great but i notice some noise on the upper left corner and some greens have flicking distortion. My guess is that its probably power related but I'm not sure. I would appreciate any help.
Thank you
Relevant video

https://youtu.be/Rx1_rQYTK4E


https://imgur.com/3zXuXGm
https://imgur.com/aO4ngkE
User avatar
BuckoA51
Posts: 3357
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:08 am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by BuckoA51 »

What PSU are you using with your OSSC?
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
Please check the Wiki before posting about Morph, OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page
User avatar
ceramiclion
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:39 pm

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by ceramiclion »

BuckoA51 wrote:What PSU are you using with your OSSC?
6.0V 0.85A
User avatar
BuckoA51
Posts: 3357
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:08 am
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by BuckoA51 »

Yeah, try one a bit stronger, at least 1 amp.
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
Please check the Wiki before posting about Morph, OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page
User avatar
ASDR
Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:43 pm
Location: Europistan

Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

Post by ASDR »

Or just go green, keep your OSSC at 4x, save some electricity & the environment :D
Post Reply