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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:54 am 



Joined: 23 Jun 2020
Posts: 7
I'm currently using RGB Scart cables to connect almost all of my consoles to the OSSC to output to my Samsung HDTV. I first tried the FirebrandX profiles but wasn't happy with the results, so I am just using generic mode for each system. It looks ok, but I'm kind of underwhelmed still. I've tried posting in forums for help and using the JunkerHQ wiki, but I can't get a picture I like. Does anyone think that I might have decent results with a Retro Tink 2x Scart?
I like what I've seen the smoothing filter do.
I guess my question is does the OSSC in Generic mode still look better than a Retro Tink 2x or might I get the results I'm looking for from the Tink?
Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:22 am 



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 165
radiomike31 wrote:
I'm currently using RGB Scart cables to connect almost all of my consoles to the OSSC to output to my Samsung HDTV. I first tried the FirebrandX profiles but wasn't happy with the results, so I am just using generic mode for each system. It looks ok, but I'm kind of underwhelmed still. I've tried posting in forums for help and using the JunkerHQ wiki, but I can't get a picture I like. Does anyone think that I might have decent results with a Retro Tink 2x Scart?
I like what I've seen the smoothing filter do.
I guess my question is does the OSSC in Generic mode still look better than a Retro Tink 2x or might I get the results I'm looking for from the Tink?
Thank you!


If you like the smoothing filter then you're better off with one of the RetroTink devices.

OSSC is more for gaming with the original unfiltered image. I could also be wrong but I think there's some additional tweaking that you need to do with the Firebrand profiles - not sure if you're supposed to be in 'Generic' modes, maybe the Optimal timings. Additionally also try Line 3X and/or Line 5X if your TV supports it along with setting your TV to a 'Game' or 'Graphics' mode.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:00 pm 



Joined: 23 Jun 2020
Posts: 7
CobraKing wrote:
radiomike31 wrote:
I'm currently using RGB Scart cables to connect almost all of my consoles to the OSSC to output to my Samsung HDTV. I first tried the FirebrandX profiles but wasn't happy with the results, so I am just using generic mode for each system. It looks ok, but I'm kind of underwhelmed still. I've tried posting in forums for help and using the JunkerHQ wiki, but I can't get a picture I like. Does anyone think that I might have decent results with a Retro Tink 2x Scart?
I like what I've seen the smoothing filter do.
I guess my question is does the OSSC in Generic mode still look better than a Retro Tink 2x or might I get the results I'm looking for from the Tink?
Thank you!


If you like the smoothing filter then you're better off with one of the RetroTink devices.

OSSC is more for gaming with the original unfiltered image. I could also be wrong but I think there's some additional tweaking that you need to do with the Firebrand profiles - not sure if you're supposed to be in 'Generic' modes, maybe the Optimal timings. Additionally also try Line 3X and/or Line 5X if your TV supports it along with setting your TV to a 'Game' or 'Graphics' mode.



Thanks for the tips. I'm actually using 3x and 4x for some consoles but haven't tried game or graphics mode on my TV. Not sure if I have that. I'm going to look tonight!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:39 pm 


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Quote:
OSSC is more for gaming with the original unfiltered image.

OSSC is also the processor with the most sophisticated scanline engine. The various scaling modes allow you to use a myriad of different combinations of processor scaling, TV scaling, horizontal scanlines and vertical pixel patterns.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:25 am 



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 165
radiomike31 wrote:
CobraKing wrote:
radiomike31 wrote:
I'm currently using RGB Scart cables to connect almost all of my consoles to the OSSC to output to my Samsung HDTV. I first tried the FirebrandX profiles but wasn't happy with the results, so I am just using generic mode for each system. It looks ok, but I'm kind of underwhelmed still. I've tried posting in forums for help and using the JunkerHQ wiki, but I can't get a picture I like. Does anyone think that I might have decent results with a Retro Tink 2x Scart?
I like what I've seen the smoothing filter do.
I guess my question is does the OSSC in Generic mode still look better than a Retro Tink 2x or might I get the results I'm looking for from the Tink?
Thank you!


If you like the smoothing filter then you're better off with one of the RetroTink devices.

OSSC is more for gaming with the original unfiltered image. I could also be wrong but I think there's some additional tweaking that you need to do with the Firebrand profiles - not sure if you're supposed to be in 'Generic' modes, maybe the Optimal timings. Additionally also try Line 3X and/or Line 5X if your TV supports it along with setting your TV to a 'Game' or 'Graphics' mode.



Thanks for the tips. I'm actually using 3x and 4x for some consoles but haven't tried game or graphics mode on my TV. Not sure if I have that. I'm going to look tonight!


If it's a newer Samsung TV you definitely have a game mode, I think the graphics mode might only be on SONY TVs.

Start with Line 3X on the OSSC and see if you can go up to 5X.

FirebrandX has YouTube videos documenting this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48FOtofdyxE

Fudoh mentioned it already but play around with the Hybrid Scan lines too.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:05 am 


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radiomike31 wrote:
I'm currently using RGB Scart cables to connect almost all of my consoles to the OSSC to output to my Samsung HDTV. I first tried the FirebrandX profiles but wasn't happy with the results, so I am just using generic mode for each system. It looks ok, but I'm kind of underwhelmed still. I've tried posting in forums for help and using the JunkerHQ wiki, but I can't get a picture I like. Does anyone think that I might have decent results with a Retro Tink 2x Scart?
I like what I've seen the smoothing filter do.
I guess my question is does the OSSC in Generic mode still look better than a Retro Tink 2x or might I get the results I'm looking for from the Tink?
Thank you!


It does depend a lot on what you're after. FBX's profiles to me look like an early emulator, too blocky and not CRT like at all.

RetroTINK with filter on the other hand looks like scale 2x on a more recent emulator, still not a look I like, except maybe on very cartoony games like Yoshi's Island just for a novelty.

OSSC generic at 3x or 4x with hybrid scanlines looks the closest to a consumer CRT to my eye. Of course here you're more at the mercy of your TVs scaler for the final result.

Perhaps a less aggressive smoothing filter combined with 5x optimal upscale on OSSC pro would give a result that I would like.. who knows? Having spent the better part of 2 hours last night trying to get ScummVM to look nice (why does such a popular program have such dated scaling options and filters?) rather than just playing the game I just bought I'm not sure I want to be sucked down the rabbit hole of fine tuning each game for absolute pixel perfection :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:14 pm 



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 165
@BuckoA51 @Fudoh is it possible to post some Hybrid scanline settings?

There was a good recommendation made in this post well over a year and a half ago and it's probably harder to find.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:16 pm 



Joined: 23 Jun 2020
Posts: 7
CobraKing wrote:
@BuckoA51 @Fudoh is it possible to post some Hybrid scanline settings?

There was a good recommendation made in this post well over a year and a half ago and it's probably harder to find.


I really appreciate everyone's suggestions! I'm at 3x and 4x for most of my consoles. What's great is my Samsung seems to accept just about everything I throw at it. I just feel like the 5x looks too "blocky" for my taste. I guess I'm more into that "cartoonish" look that the OSSC isn't necessarily meant for.
However, I would love to try some hybrid scanline settings if you guys could post. @BuckoA51 @Fudoh

Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:26 pm 



Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 54
You can always use the generic profiles if you want a slightly fuzzier look opposed to the sharp pixel perfect look of the FBX profiles. I've never been able to get the hybrid scanlines dialed in as well as I'd like on the OSSC. I'll see if I can get what settings I currently have though and share. I just moved everything so it's not currently hooked up.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:02 pm 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 247
Apologies if this has been asked before, but how come the upsample2x option produces a softer image than pixel doubling when sampling matches the dot clock? Is it something unique to the ADC used here or sampling theory that's beyond my knowledge?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:31 pm 


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I have the hybrid scanlines set around 33%, I think that compares well to my CRT.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:52 pm 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
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marqs wrote:
Have you tried adjusting sampling phase? Delay between video and sync is different on all those 3 inputs so optimal sampling phase is also different for each.


I've had a chance to do a bit more testing of this setup. Where I've landed in my end-to-end testing is that by introducing additional hops in my setup, the 720p signal is most sensitive to degradation compared to 480p or 240p. The focus of my testing is an Xbox 1.0 outputting RGsB (since it happens to output 720p). Below is an ordering of best to worst:

1. RGsB direct into either AV2 or AV3 with no adjustment needed from the default 720p sync timings.
2. RGsB through a SyncStrike and an Extron MVX into AV3. This saw some minor blurriness with minor adjustment needed to the h sync length.
3. RGsB -> gscartsw (RGBS) -> SyncStrike -> Extron MVX -> AV3. Increased blurriness and minor adjustment needed.
4. (tie) RGsB -> AV1 OSSC.
4. (tie) RGsB -> gscartsw -> AV1 OSSC.

For the bottom two, there is some amount of ghosting/ringing to the image. Adjusting the phase doesn't help, but for both I need to adjust the h. sync length for the image to be properly centered on the display.

So it seems like AV1 is the most destructive to the 720p signal, with either RGsB or RGBS. Is the built-in LPF in AV1 (that from my understanding can't be fully turned off) the culprit for this?

And then I guess generally, is there anything that can be done to avoid degradation of 720p when its sync is converted? Or is this a limitation of the bandwidth needed?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:05 am 


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ross wrote:
Apologies if this has been asked before, but how come the upsample2x option produces a softer image than pixel doubling when sampling matches the dot clock? Is it something unique to the ADC used here or sampling theory that's beyond my knowledge?


Consider 480p sampling in 2x mode. 858 is optimal sample rate. In both cases (upsample2x or no-upsample2x), signal is sampled at twice the optimal rate (858x2) to achieve the proper pixel clock. In the former case, all samples are kept for the output. In the 2nd case, every other sample is discarded and replaced by repetition of previous pixel. So upsample2x is a closer representation of original analog signal, thus appearing softer.

In other words, upsample 2x works like 240p generic mode, while no-upsample2x works like 240p optimized mode.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:49 am 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 247
Harrumph wrote:
Consider 480p sampling in 2x mode. 858 is optimal sample rate. In both cases (upsample2x or no-upsample2x), signal is sampled at twice the optimal rate (858x2) to achieve the proper pixel clock. In the former case, all samples are kept for the output. In the 2nd case, every other sample is discarded and replaced by repetition of previous pixel. So upsample2x is a closer representation of original analog signal, thus appearing softer.

In other words, upsample 2x works like 240p generic mode, while no-upsample2x works like 240p optimized mode.

I guess my understanding of it is with standard 13.5 MHz 480p, say you have a 100% red dot, followed by a 100% green dot, followed by a 100% blue dot, whether you sample at 13.5 MHz and pixel double (or sample at 27 MHz, discard every other sample then pixel double) or sample at 27 MHz, I would've thought you should still end up with two 100% red pixels, followed by two 100% green pixels, followed by two 100% blue pixels. Whereas with 240p generic and optimised modes, the softness with the former comes from sampled pixels not matching up with colour transitions across the input line and some averaging being needed.

My question then might be is if upsample2x mode is not outputting two exactly identical RGB values for every two pixels like with pixel repetition, giving you that 'more analogue' less pixelated look, is this expected behaviour when sampling analogue video or something that comes down to the quality of the ADC (or something else)?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:25 pm 


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ross wrote:
is this expected behaviour when sampling analogue video or something that comes down to the quality of the ADC (or something else)?


Yes it is expected. Analog video always has slight (or more than slight) imperfections in the signal. I'm not an electronics engineer, but I've surmised there is variability within the peak values, as well as that rise and decay times necessarily cannot be instantaneous, inducing distortions (overshoot & undershoot) in the signal. Add to that the varying quality of RGB encoders in old consoles. When looking at documentation you can often see (analog) RGB signals depicted as idealized square waves, but in practice, they are not and can never be perfect square waves.

The point of optimized mode is to avoid this variability by only keeping one sample from each peak and then pixel repeat that in the digital realm. This is also why LPF on the analog signal is desirable before digitization, to smooth out high frequency variations on the analog signal.

I really doubt modern ADC chips used in devices like the OSSC would affect this negatively.

As stated, I'm hardly an expert but that's the basic gist of it. I'm sure you can find some examples by googling.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:06 pm 


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ross, I think you mean (100% red, 0% green, 0% blue) dot, (0% red, 100% green, 0% blue) dot and (0% red, 0% green,100% blue) dot and the same where you are referring to pixels. Just writing that one component is 100% intensity could still allow for the case that all dots or pixels are white.

ross wrote:
I would've thought you should still end up with two 100% red pixels, followed by two 100% green pixels, followed by two 100% blue pixels


No, not when you sample at 27MHz and use every sample in the output. And even in your other two cases, the samples are not going to perfectly represent the analogue signal, or the originally digital values.

ross wrote:
My question then might be is if upsample2x mode is not outputting two exactly identical RGB values for every two pixels like with pixel repetition


RGB pixels don't consist of one value, they consist of at least three. "Identical" is not gradable. What you meant to write is probably "...is not outputting successive pairs of identical pixels...". Answer: Upsample2x can output differing pixels for every next pixel. But it could also output a whole frame consisting of only the same pixel over and over. It depends on the analogue signal and the analog to digital conversion process.

ross wrote:
is this expected behaviour when sampling analogue video or something that comes down to the quality of the ADC


Both. For more see the answer by Harrumph, or Google.

Harrumph wrote:
rise and decay times necessarily cannot be instantaneous


Yes—it is physically impossible.

I'm also not an expert in the area though.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:28 pm 



Joined: 11 Nov 2013
Posts: 258
I was looking to do some capture comparisons of component transcoders (I have the two BeharBros Garo units as well as the Retrotink COMP2RGB) and am looking for some guidance. I think I should focus on the original Xbox as it supports 480i, 480p, and 720p.

Questions:
1. Is there a game I should use that has a static screen, but displays enough variance that an apples-to-apples comparison could be done? All of my go-tos (Outrun 2, JSRF, etc.) tend to animate a lot, which may skew objective assessment.

2. If I'm doing capture of 480i, is it better to do a capture with the OSSC set to Bob or Passthru?

3. Is it worth comparing 16:9 vs. 4:3?

4. I've found different optimized OSSC values recommended for the Xbox. Is there a definitive set I can look at?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:02 pm 


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Doesn't the XBOx have a scaling bug that causes its output to always scaled in some way. I think FirebrandX touched on this a while ago, maybe in one of his videos. For a transcoder test you're MUCH better off using a PS2.

Quote:
If I'm doing capture of 480i, is it better to do a capture with the OSSC set to Bob or Passthru?

depends on your compressor. If your compression app is doing framebased compression, then you get crosstalk between the fields.

Quote:
Is it worth comparing 16:9 vs. 4:3?

not really. It's the same resolution for 480i and 480p anyway.

Quote:
I've found different optimized OSSC values recommended for the Xbox. Is there a definitive set I can look at?

see my initial thought above.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:38 pm 


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Two new OSSC cases on the way:

Todd Gill's design
Image
Image

Work in progress case from Greg Collins
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:46 pm 



Joined: 11 Nov 2013
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Fudoh wrote:
Doesn't the XBOx have a scaling bug that causes its output to always scaled in some way. I think FirebrandX touched on this a while ago, maybe in one of his videos. For a transcoder test you're MUCH better off using a PS2.


One of the areas that I'm interested in is validating that the transcoders accurately compensate for Rec 601 and 709. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 480p does 601 and 720p does 709, right? And AFAIK the PS2 is capped at 480p. So that was a consideration for using the Xbox. I guess if this was truly a concern, I could do the Xbox 360 with component cables.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:26 pm 


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SavagePencil wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
Doesn't the XBOx have a scaling bug that causes its output to always scaled in some way. I think FirebrandX touched on this a while ago, maybe in one of his videos. For a transcoder test you're MUCH better off using a PS2.


One of the areas that I'm interested in is validating that the transcoders accurately compensate for Rec 601 and 709. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 480p does 601 and 720p does 709, right? And AFAIK the PS2 is capped at 480p. So that was a consideration for using the Xbox. I guess if this was truly a concern, I could do the Xbox 360 with component cables.


A proper test pattern generator or video processor would make more sense. Also, this needs its own thread. It's wildly off topic.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:41 pm 


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Quote:
One of the areas that I'm interested in is validating that the transcoders accurately compensate for Rec 601 and 709. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 480p does 601 and 720p does 709, right? And AFAIK the PS2 is capped at 480p. So that was a consideration for using the Xbox. I guess if this was truly a concern, I could do the Xbox 360 with component cables.

right, 480p is 601. PS2 can also do 1080i on a handful of titles (GT4 I think), but I don't know if the system honors the (thoretically) mandatory 709 encoding for 1080i.

But especially in terms of sharpness and pixel definition the PS2 is quite a step ahead of the XBox, so when looking at transcoder quality (which can cause a very slight horizontal loss in definition) it's good to have a really clean source.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:04 pm 



Joined: 11 Nov 2013
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orange808 wrote:
A proper test pattern generator or video processor would make more sense. Also, this needs its own thread. It's wildly off topic.


Ah true. I started it here hoping for the correct OSSC settings for Xbox in the various resolutions. Which, to stay on topic, I'd still love to find!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:28 am 



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SavagePencil wrote:
Ah true. I started it here hoping for the correct OSSC settings for Xbox in the various resolutions. Which, to stay on topic, I'd still love to find!


Please share the timings if you find a definitive source. In my testing, they seemed to be close to the standard timings for 480p/720p, with minor adjustments needed depending on which AV port I'm using.

It's worth noting that in my ongoing testing of Xbox RGsB and the OSSC, I mentioned recently in this thread that I noticed some degradation when using the gscartsw to convert the RGsB to RGBS. I did some more testing with an Extron 201 rxi and found the results from that device to the OSSC to be significantly better. The ghosting I previously reported was gone.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:10 pm 


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Sometimes, when going through a lot of different sources, I end up with lots of visible jitter (like an unstable sync signal). Looks similar to using a noisy source without enabling the LPF.

I first thought this was power supply related, since swapping the PSU did seem to help, but I don't seem able to pinpoint the problem. It's unlikely that the source itself changes it's signal output quality. The changing factors are converters or cables used and lots of different power supplies for lots of different converters.

Any ideas on what might be the issue? It's not exactly subtle, so if you encountered this before, you'd remember.

UPDATE:

It's the Allow TVP HPLL2x option that's causing the trouble. Off is always fine. With ot ON I run into a 50% chance of getting strong visible jitter. This is true for both 480i and 240p inputs (currently on the AV3 input and using 480p output). What's the advantage of this setting set to ON ?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:35 am 



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Quote:
Controls whether video digitizer H-PLL uses 2x sampling clock internally on supported video modes.

On: Enables 2x H-PLL, generally reducing jitter at the price of inaccurate sampling phase due to internal bug. [default]
Off: Disables 2x H-PLL, which might help with Line5x stability.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:27 pm 


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seems a bit weird that it defaults to ON, doesn't it ?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:24 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
seems a bit weird that it defaults to ON, doesn't it ?
Now that most 15kHz presets use 2x sampling natively (every other sample discarded by FPGA), the 2x H-PLL option for digitizer is not as necessary as with older firmwares. It should not still cause problems with generic presets where random 180deg phase offset is somewhat acceptable, although for de-facto 480i in Line2x (or line4x without upsample2x) generic presets are essentially optimal.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:11 am 



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In the PS2 game Klonoa 2 I lose sync for a second or two on the OSSC and its light turns red whenever the scene transitions. I'm using 480i line4x and allow upsample2x. This doesn't happen with other scalers I have tested with the same game but it looks much better using the OSSC. Is there anything I can do to fix this issue?


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:00 pm 



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I think the game just drops sync when it is loading. If you are using Open PS2 Loader then Klonoa 2 works best from USB using modes 1 and 6, where the sync drops are less frequest and shorter.


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