Borders on tv

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:19 pm

Ok, I have a feeling the answer will be no..
But.. Is there anything that can be done about the black borders on the top and bottom of my tv when I play jap or us imports.
Mostly I play jap dreamcast and saturn imports on a euro console and tv..
The borders don't bother me much at all.. Only on rare ocassions when playing a vert shmup in yoko tv mode.. But if anything can be done to get rid of these borders, I'd like to hear about it.
(Mars Matrix's option to resize the tv to get the proportions right is brilliant, I wish more shmups had this ability)..
The only two alternatives that i can think of is, 1 to buy a jap or usa tv (not really an option for me..) 2 to find out how to acces the service ménu of your tv, so to manually resize the tv. I have a brilliant rgb compatible 21 inch tv, which i'm very fond of, so I would like to keep it. But it's pretty old, maybe 10-12 years old, so I don't have much hope of finding out how to acces the service menu.. (either from the net or the manufacturer..)

Anyway, anybody has any ideas?
How do you PALshmuppers feel about borders on your tv?

Post by **Ghegs** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:36 pm

Moved to Hardware.

Odds are your TV has different settings for 50hz stuff than 60hz stuff, which causes these borders to appear. I had the other way around, 60hz stuff was cut off from both top and bottom.

Service menu really is the easiest way to fix this. Enter your TV's manufacturer (or maybe the model number) and "service menu" or "service mode" into Google. Once you reach the menu, don't touch anything except the geometry values and write those down before you make any changes, just in case.

There are also some special remote controllers that can access the service menu in most TVs, but they are either expensive or only in the hands of professional TV repairguys.

theevilfunkster · Post by **theevilfunkster** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:34 pm

You could get a 50/60 htz switch fitted to your PAL Saturn, or just get a Japanese Saturn (not really all that expensive).

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:11 pm

Really?
Now, I'm really not tech savy at all, but I thought the borders were due to the a pal television having a different resolution than the ntsc one, and therefore cramming the picture.. But If one can overcome the borders with a 50/60 heartz swich, wouldn't that mean that the problem was infact with the output of the console itself? If so, a switch would be great!

theevilfunkster · Post by **theevilfunkster** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:28 pm

A 50/60 htz switch on a PAL Saturn will run all your Japanese and PAL games full screen. It will also make your PAL games run full speed.

A Japanese Saturn will work full screen on a PAL tv and with an Action Replay cart, play your PAL games at full speed.

zaphod · Post by **zaphod** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:41 pm

you will only get full frame 60hz video if your TV does the right thing. pal TVs DO have higher resolutiion, and a different aspect ratio. some TVs (more modern ones) will scale a 60hz signal to be full screen. odler one swon't even take the signal at all, and those yo have to tweak in service mode, and then tweak back when yo uplay native games.

D · Post by D » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:17 am

Let me shed some light on the subject.
I have a grundig tv. and I can play 60 Hz games.
My friend has a newer grundig tv and he can play DREAMCAST 60 hz games full screen on his newer grundig tv, but the other day I brought an spider RGB SCART cable (one that you can connect to several consoles) and put the PAL games on 60 HZ and what I got was a squezed playing field.

So I guess the game ran faster, but the image was squezed, so it indeed had top and bottom borders, kinda like a wide screen display

Perhaps it's the cable
Perhaps it's the old model ps2
The games? Burnout 3, Mortal kombat (the older one from 2002 or 2003)
Or it;s the tv that auto switches to some sort of wide-screen image bacause it thinks we are playing a wide screen dvd?
or......?

I hope we can solve this together, troubleshoot for that matter.
when I figure it out I will reply.

*this stuff really fascinates me*

To answer your question, look into selling your tv and buying another or trading with someone and explain why you want his or her tv, try if it displays 60 right before you do offcourse, or indeed try the service menu, but I geuss you will have to switch back and forth between settings in the service menu when watching tv or playing 50 hz games.

If you have any more questions, we're here

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:58 am

The reason you get borders is because 60hz games have a resolution of around 480 lines. A PAL console is processing many more lines. Therefore when you play a 60hz game on a PAL console it centers it using as many lines of information is in the game. So say a PAL TV has 600 lines, 120 of them are not used, which make the borders at the top and bottom.

Its not your TV.

Your TV can usually process 60hz natively through RGB SCART. So just buy a console that is NTSC (US or JP) with a step down, or buy the necessary mod/switch for your PAL console.

Some PAL games run like crap on NTSC consoles, particularly Saturn. Because some PAL games were made full screen for PAL, which makes them bigger than your TV on a NTSC console, making 10% of the screen overlap the top and bottom. I think Daytona CE does this in 2player.

Post by **Ghegs** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:11 am

D wrote:or indeed try the service menu, but I geuss you will have to switch back and forth between settings in the service menu when watching tv or playing 50 hz games.

At least on my TV there are separate settings for 50hz and 60hz (or PAL and NTSC, more likely) stuff, so no worries there.

D · Post by D » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:27 pm

Ghegs wrote:
D wrote:or indeed try the service menu, but I geuss you will have to switch back and forth between settings in the service menu when watching tv or playing 50 hz games.
At least on my TV there are separate settings for 50hz and 60hz (or PAL and NTSC, more likely) stuff, so no worries there.

Wow, what brand?

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:42 pm

Thanks for all your advice people.
I think getting a tv which can display 60 hrz games on full screen, is probably the only way to go.
Cause I really can't imagine why a 50/60hrz switch can change the fact that my tv crams 60hrz signal so there becomes top and bottom borders.. But then again, I really aren't tech savy..
Then again, maybe one should just live with it.. Cause it is really only in vert shmups with yoko only modes, in which the borders bother me..

Post by **Ghegs** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:18 pm

D wrote:
Ghegs wrote:
D wrote:or indeed try the service menu, but I geuss you will have to switch back and forth between settings in the service menu when watching tv or playing 50 hz games.
At least on my TV there are separate settings for 50hz and 60hz (or PAL and NTSC, more likely) stuff, so no worries there.
Wow, what brand?

A Philips, a bit over 10 years old I think. In Service Menu/Geometry there are settings called "VSH" and "HSH" which handle the vertical and horizontal picture alignments for 50hz, "V60" and "H60" take care of the same for 60hz.