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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:45 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 491
superg wrote:
...I will add 4 positions configuration array which will control various switch functions (clean sync, sog forward or convert, sog leave sync on green or remove and something else).

Will you be adding a DIP switch block, or is that too old-school? :P

As for the fourth configuration, the only other thing I can think that people might want to change is the switching behavior. For example, staying locked on the current input as long as it's active (which is the current behavior, yes?) versus automatically switching to an input when it becomes active, even if the current input is active; but who would really want that?


Unrelated thought: If the gscartsw didn't have hardwired voltages for blanking and aspect, a switch array could be added to allow overrides for these, like forcing composite or RGB, forcing 4:3 or 16:9, or replicating/passing-through the source voltages.

Also, should theoretically be possible to power the gscartsw from a SCART source, but I imagine it would be too complex and expensive to add the components required to deal with power from multiple active sources and output 12V for the 4:3 override when only receiving 5V from a source (like an NTSC SNES), and I doubt anyone would have a real need for this.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:21 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
Will you be adding a DIP switch block, or is that too old-school? :P

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/ ... ND/8575968 - this one!
nmalinoski wrote:
As for the fourth configuration, the only other thing I can think that people might want to change is the switching behavior. For example, staying locked on the current input as long as it's active (which is the current behavior, yes?) versus automatically switching to an input when it becomes active, even if the current input is active; but who would really want that?

That would be hard because there is only one comparator / adc in the chain, which simply means that I can only check one input at a time.

nmalinoski wrote:
Unrelated thought: If the gscartsw didn't have hardwired voltages for blanking and aspect, a switch array could be added to allow overrides for these, like forcing composite or RGB, forcing 4:3 or 16:9, or replicating/passing-through the source voltages.

So far nobody asked for such support. All RGBS input cases that I know of need 4:3 aspect, even WII. Also most users nowadays use either a PVM or XRGB / OSSC so these two SCART pins are ignored. Anyways SCART pin 8 and pin 16 are disconnected from inputs.
Actually I have a feature in mind which can be implemented, SMS doesn't generate fully compliant signal which confuses some PVM monitors, retrorgb asked whether this can be implemented and now I think it can be done as there are more logic cells on the new Altera IC.

nmalinoski wrote:
Also, should theoretically be possible to power the gscartsw from a SCART source, but I imagine it would be too complex and expensive to add the components required to deal with power from multiple active sources and output 12V for the 4:3 override when only receiving 5V from a source (like an NTSC SNES), and I doubt anyone would have a real need for this.

Yeah, it was like this in the first switch version but so many cables were unreliable and I decided to power it up externally.
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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:39 pm 


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Great to hear you got SoG working superg :)

Out of curiosity, since you had to upgrade to a larger Altera chip might there be enough free inputs on the chip to support RGBHV to RGBS? (I have been looking for an Extron 201rxi/203rxi unit but none have come up :()


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:01 pm 


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Link83 wrote:
Great to hear you got SoG working superg :)

Out of curiosity, since you had to upgrade to a larger Altera chip might there be enough free inputs on the chip to support RGBHV to RGBS? (I have been looking for an Extron 201rxi/203rxi unit but none have come up :()

There is no standard how can you supply HV sync on the SCART, I don't see a good way of supporting it. I'd say separate sync is PC legacy.
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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:18 pm 


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superg wrote:
Link83 wrote:
Great to hear you got SoG working superg :)

Out of curiosity, since you had to upgrade to a larger Altera chip might there be enough free inputs on the chip to support RGBHV to RGBS? (I have been looking for an Extron 201rxi/203rxi unit but none have come up :()

There is no standard how can you supply HV sync on the SCART, I don't see a good way of supporting it. I'd say separate sync is PC legacy.

SCART Pins 10 and 12 were hardly ever used (Two data lines which were never originally standardised) and no game consoles SCART cables ever used them:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART#Data_bus
The commercially available Keene SCART Commander also used pins 10 and 12 for HSYNC and VSYNC input and output:-
https://www.keene.co.uk/pages/downloads ... s/KSCi.pdf
On the output side I think most people would be happy with just RGBS (75ohm CSYNC on pin 20) but if you wanted there could also be a small switch to enable/disable HSYNC/VSYNC output over SCART pins 10/12.

Since the new gscartsw model will support RGsB for PS2, it would be nice it it could also support RGBHV for Dreamcast. In addition the original Xbox and even the Wii can now be modded to output RGBHV:-
https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?t ... -1-2.2176/


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:25 pm 


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Link83 wrote:
superg wrote:
Link83 wrote:
Great to hear you got SoG working superg :)

Out of curiosity, since you had to upgrade to a larger Altera chip might there be enough free inputs on the chip to support RGBHV to RGBS? (I have been looking for an Extron 201rxi/203rxi unit but none have come up :()

There is no standard how can you supply HV sync on the SCART, I don't see a good way of supporting it. I'd say separate sync is PC legacy.

SCART Pins 10 and 12 were hardly ever used (Two data lines which were never originally standardised) and no game consoles SCART cables ever used them:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART#Data_bus
The commercially available Keene SCART Commander also used pins 10 and 12 for HSYNC and VSYNC input and output:-
https://www.keene.co.uk/pages/downloads ... s/KSCi.pdf
On the output side I think most people would be happy with just RGBS (75ohm CSYNC on pin 20) but if you wanted there could also be a small switch to enable/disable HSYNC/VSYNC output over SCART pins 10/12.

Since the new gscartsw model will support RGsB for PS2, it would be nice it it could also support RGBHV for Dreamcast. In addition the original Xbox and even the Wii can now be modded to output RGBHV:-
https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?t ... -1-2.2176/

Honestly I don't see an advantage of doing HVSYNC -> CSYNC conversion on the switch side. You will still require custom SCART cables which route HV lines to pin 10 / 12.
Robert from retrogamingcables is already working on integrated sync combiner for Dreamcast, IMO that would be the best solution for it and potentially he could reuse it for other cables (original XBOX?). This WII mod is really for purists and requires custom connector / cable, people who will went through all the trouble performing the mod will also be able to add sync combiner circuit themselves. As of the rest, everybody wants a simple plug'n'play solution. For instance PS2 SoG can easily be deduced to proper CSYNC on a console side, but nobody wants to do the mod, proper SoG->RGBS conversion is the most asked switch feature after dual output.
Now even if I would want to do it, the sad reality is that routing of two more lines per input is 16 more lines each of which will need additional circuit components (resistors, capacitors and protection - the new gscartsw has all input protections, no more WindyGaming SUPERGUN damage), two multiplexers and sync combiner. SoG is much easier as green line is shared.
Hope it explains it.
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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:41 pm 


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superg wrote:
Honestly I don't see an advantage of doing HVSYNC -> CSYNC conversion on the switch side. You will still require custom SCART cables which route HV lines to pin 10 / 12.
Robert from retrogamingcables is already working on integrated sync combiner for Dreamcast, IMO that would be the best solution for it and potentially he could reuse it for other cables (original XBOX?). This WII mod is really for purists and requires custom connector / cable, people who will went through all the trouble performing the mod will also be able to add sync combiner circuit themselves. As of the rest, everybody wants a simple plug'n'play solution. For instance PS2 SoG can easily be deduced to proper CSYNC on a console side, but nobody wants to do the mod, proper SoG->RGBS conversion is the most asked switch feature after dual output.
Now even if I would want to do it, the sad reality is that routing of two more lines per input is 16 more lines each of which will need additional circuit components (resistors, capacitors and protection - the new gscartsw has all input protections, no more WindyGaming SUPERGUN damage), two multiplexers and sync combiner. SoG is much easier as green line is shared.
Hope it explains it.

I completely understand, I just thought it would be nice if it could support every type of sync supported by consoles (RGBS, RGsB, RGBHV) but I realise this is a limited use case, and that probably not many people would want to make their own custom cables. Thank you for explaining your reasoning :)


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:08 am 


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Link83 wrote:
I completely understand, I just thought it would be nice if it could support every type of sync supported by consoles (RGBS, RGsB, RGBHV) but I realise this is a limited use case, and that probably not many people would want to make their own custom cables. Thank you for explaining your reasoning :)


Agreed that it would be nice to find a good HV -> CSync converter. But it seems outside the scope of the gscartsw.

Really hoping someone else makes a good conversion box though. I want my entire chain to funnel through RGBS. It just makes everything easier.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:47 am 



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DirkSwizzler wrote:
Link83 wrote:
I completely understand, I just thought it would be nice if it could support every type of sync supported by consoles (RGBS, RGsB, RGBHV) but I realise this is a limited use case, and that probably not many people would want to make their own custom cables. Thank you for explaining your reasoning :)


Agreed that it would be nice to find a good HV -> CSync converter. But it seems outside the scope of the gscartsw.

Really hoping someone else makes a good conversion box though. I want my entire chain to funnel through RGBS. It just makes everything easier.

Yeah, SCART should be left RGBS, and I really don't think we need to be creating our own non-compliant variation. If you want a switch that can do all of RGBHV, RGBS, RGsB (and YPbPr, YC, and CVBS as a bonus), ditch SCART for DE-15/VGA and get an Extron SW VGA Ars and an RGB interface.

And on that note, that SyncBaby device for the SNES is basically the inverse (RGBS->RGBHV), which makes me think it should be relatively straightforward to make a similar inline RGB interface with DE-15 ports on both ends, for converting between RGBHV, RGBS, and RGsB. Auto-detect sync on G, H, and V lines, then combine/split/demux sync to RGBS or RGBHV based on a switch setting. (Bonus if it can convert YPbPr to RGB or RGB to YPbPr, or this can be a separate device.) With something like that, you can get straight VGA cables (Probably easier and cheaper to mass-source DE-15 connectors than SCART) for any consoles that support RGB (regardless of sync type), get a VGA switch (they come in automatic), put this thing inline on the output port, and connect it to whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:01 am 


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DirkSwizzler wrote:
Link83 wrote:
I completely understand, I just thought it would be nice if it could support every type of sync supported by consoles (RGBS, RGsB, RGBHV) but I realise this is a limited use case, and that probably not many people would want to make their own custom cables. Thank you for explaining your reasoning :)


Agreed that it would be nice to find a good HV -> CSync converter. But it seems outside the scope of the gscartsw.

Really hoping someone else makes a good conversion box though. I want my entire chain to funnel through RGBS. It just makes everything easier.

Yes my thoughts exactly - my end goal is to have all my systems connected by RGBS.

I cant find anything that can correctly combine HSYNC and VSYNC into 75ohm CSYNC (Even the Extron units dont output 75ohm CSYNC, and most sync combiner schematics online just XNOR H&VSYNC together, which isn't really the correct way to do it)

Perhaps this is just wishful thinking, but I hope one day superg might consider making a "gvgasw" with selectable sync output type, then it could be daisy chained to the gscartsw when set to 75ohm CSYNC. Many VGA switchers on the market also have issues with 15kHz signals since its 'non-standard', so I feel there is a market for a good VGA switcher.


Last edited by Link83 on Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:09 am 



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Link83 wrote:
Even the Extron units dont output 75ohm CSYNC

Doesn't matter. Just get one of these inline attenuators and put it between the output composite sync line on the RGB interface and the BNC->SCART adapter.

Link83 wrote:
Perhaps this is just wishful thinking, but I hope one day superg might consider making a "gvgasw" with selectable sync output type, then it could be daisy chained to the gscartsw when set to 75ohm CSYNC. Many VGA switchers on the market also have problems handling 15kHz signals since its 'non-standard', so I feel there is a market for a good VGA switcher.

I don't think it's likely that we'll see a VGA switcher from superg, at least not anytime soon. The retro gaming community has apparently settled on SCART, even with its flaws, and, without a significant exodus from SCART and/or a significant push or demand for something better or more available, we'll probably be stuck with SCART moving forward until we start to see more HDMI mods or plug-n-play modules.

If you want a good VGA switcher, get an Extron SW series VGA switcher. They handle all of RGBHV, RGBS, RGsB, RsGsBs, YPbPr, YC, and CVBS (just like the CrossPoints), and they support automatic switching, and I believe the Ars models have 3.5mm audio as well. They'll be rackmount only, so it won't be compact or pretty, but they'll do the job well.


Last edited by nmalinoski on Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:17 am 


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nmalinoski wrote:
And on that note, that SyncBaby device for the SNES is basically the inverse (RGBS->RGBHV), which makes me think it should be relatively straightforward to make a similar inline RGB interface with DE-15 ports on both ends, for converting between RGBHV, RGBS, and RGsB. Auto-detect sync on G, H, and V lines, then combine/split/demux sync to RGBS or RGBHV based on a switch setting. (Bonus if it can convert YPbPr to RGB or RGB to YPbPr, or this can be a separate device.) With something like that, you can get straight VGA cables (Probably easier and cheaper to mass-source DE-15 connectors than SCART) for any consoles that support RGB (regardless of sync type), get a VGA switch (they come in automatic), put this thing inline on the output port, and connect it to whatever.

That would be great but unfortunately there is nothing like that currently available, and although its easy to separate CSYNC into HSYNC/VSYNC using an LM1881 sync separator IC (Like the SyncBaby) the inverse is complicated and there doesn't appear to be any readily available sync combiner IC's that can combine HSYNC/VSYNC into CSYNC, so unfortunately its not straightforward :(

Anyway, apologies for somewhat derailing superg's thread.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:12 pm 



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I'll soon be testing a sync combiner designed for retro-gaming. If it works as advertised, you'll just need an RCA (or BNC) to SCART cable and it'll work perfectly through the gscartsw...or any SCART/RGBs device.

As soon as it comes in, I'll do a quick review and include scope captures to show voltages in different scenarios. Fingers crossed, but this might be the solution for the few people that need RGBHV into an RGBs solution. Should be in and tested by the end of the month.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:22 pm 



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Maybe I am missing something but what consoles are you getting separate sync from that you need to combine? The Dreamcast is the only one that comes to mind and the Toro can output c-sync just fine. They also sell the Kenzei sync combiner for any other sources that need sync combining.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm 


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The retrotink 2x and the garo for all component sources


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:52 pm 



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@superg I'm sold the moment your new batch becomes available. How can I contact you / keep in touch?


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:03 pm 



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DirkSwizzler wrote:
thebigcheese wrote:
Maybe I am missing something but what consoles are you getting separate sync from that you need to combine? The Dreamcast is the only one that comes to mind and the Toro can output c-sync just fine. They also sell the Kenzei sync combiner for any other sources that need sync combining.

The retrotink 2x and the garo for all component sources

Plus any PCs that can output in VGA/RGBHV, like the Sharp X68000 or FM Towns.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:40 am 



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After lurking for years, this finally brought me out of the woodwork. Looking forward to finally getting a proper switch for my RGB stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:48 am 



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X68k and Fm Towns I recommend connecting directly to the OSSC with a converter in the VGA port.
I find using scart RGB for these specific systems outputting a far worse image to either the framemeister or ossc compared to vga/ossc.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:22 pm 



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Elrinth wrote:
X68k and Fm Towns I recommend connecting directly to the OSSC with a converter in the VGA port.
I find using scart RGB for these specific systems outputting a far worse image to either the framemeister or ossc compared to vga/ossc.

Unless the LPF on AV1 causes interference on clean RGB signals, I don't see how picture quality would be affected when using a sync combiner to convert RGBHV output these systems with RGBS-only equipment. Are you referring to native 15kHz RGBS output?


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:47 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
Elrinth wrote:
X68k and Fm Towns I recommend connecting directly to the OSSC with a converter in the VGA port.
I find using scart RGB for these specific systems outputting a far worse image to either the framemeister or ossc compared to vga/ossc.

Unless the LPF on AV1 causes interference on clean RGB signals, I don't see how picture quality would be affected when using a sync combiner to convert RGBHV output these systems with RGBS-only equipment. Are you referring to native 15kHz RGBS output?


^^^ . I don't see how sync combining is going to affect the color unless your RGBs cabling is junk or the sync combiner is junk. And it's fair to assume the sync combiner might be junk. I've had to lower my expectations on sync combiners to just accept the best of the bad ones.

Other points:
-The Framemeister and OSSC don't output to my PVM. I need combined sync.
-Funneling everything to RGBs means I can use the awesome gscartsw series to only forward devices that are on. And can thusly teach my wife & kids how to operate my setup. They literally just turn on the thing they want to play and it works.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:06 pm 



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Will this new revision of Gscart support the windy gaming Supergun?


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:15 pm 



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ghairat wrote:
Will this new revision of Gscart support the windy gaming Supergun?

Depends. Was it redesigned to not output way-out-of-spec amplified audio over SCART?


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:51 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
ghairat wrote:
Will this new revision of Gscart support the windy gaming Supergun?

Depends. Was it redesigned to not output way-out-of-spec amplified audio over SCART?


As I understand it. The overvoltage protection is specifically there for that supergun so people stop sending units to SuperG.

So it *supports* it in that it won’t fry your switch.


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:15 pm 



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But will I be able to play it through the Gscartsw?

To me "protection" means that you cant play it


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:39 pm 


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ghairat wrote:
But will I be able to play it through the Gscartsw?

To me "protection" means that you cant play it

Protection means that switch won't die from excessive voltage on A/V lines. You will not be able to play it if it isn't compliant. If we talk about the specific situation about Windy Gaming Supergun conversion it means that you will have to make sure it's configured to output linear audio, or you will hear garbage if anything. The guy was very defensive about it at the time so I doubt he improved it. I suggest to get another proper Supergun conversion.
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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:15 am 



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I'm using the gcompsw to switch between multiple RGBS sources (using the composite inputs/output for sync), and it appears that the gcompsw doesn't pass the RGBS output from this PC Engine RGB adaptor that I got from Yahoo Japan: https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n282054390

RGBS from other consoles (using a JP21>BNC adapter + BNC-RCA adapters) works OK, though.

Noting this as a curiosity, not a complaint. I'm well aware that I'm not using the gcompsw for its intended purpose. Guess I'll have to try other component switches or just have to get behind my PVM and manually switch the cables every time I play my PC Engine. I would get one of those huge BNC switchboxes If I had more room and they weren't so expensive to ship to Japan...


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:53 pm 


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jd213 wrote:
I'm using the gcompsw to switch between multiple RGBS sources (using the composite inputs/output for sync), and it appears that the gcompsw doesn't pass the RGBS output from this PC Engine RGB adaptor that I got from Yahoo Japan: https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n282054390

RGBS from other consoles (using a JP21>BNC adapter + BNC-RCA adapters) works OK, though.

Noting this as a curiosity, not a complaint. I'm well aware that I'm not using the gcompsw for its intended purpose. Guess I'll have to try other component switches or just have to get behind my PVM and manually switch the cables every time I play my PC Engine. I would get one of those huge BNC switchboxes If I had more room and they weren't so expensive to ship to Japan...

Don't see a reason why it wouldn't work. Does the switch led blinks when you turn on your PC Engine using this adapter?
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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:44 am 



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Hi.

Sorry if this has been posted already, I am having an issue with a gscartlite using an OSSC:

Neo Geo AES would not display a picture on the OSSC when plugged through a gscartlite.
It displays a picture fine through the gscart out to a CRT.
Other consoles work fine through the gscart through to OSSC

I have tried different cables (sync on composite) with same results.

Neo plugged in directly into ossc, green led and picture displays fine
Image

Neo pluuged through gscart, no picture and red LED.
Image

I have not contacted the OSSC support team yet as it works without the gscart.

Any ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: gscartsw / gscartsw_lite / gcompsw switches support thre
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:26 pm 


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djcalle wrote:
Hi.

Sorry if this has been posted already, I am having an issue with a gscartlite using an OSSC:

Neo Geo AES would not display a picture on the OSSC when plugged through a gscartlite.
It displays a picture fine through the gscart out to a CRT.
Other consoles work fine through the gscart through to OSSC

I have tried different cables (sync on composite) with same results.
Any ideas?

Tried CSYNC/OFF toggle, changes anything?
It looks like the signal is detected by OSSC and the frequencies are the same in the second pic. Do you get black screen all the time?
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