Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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Xyga
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

RGB32E wrote:New contender for 2016's best gaming TV - Sony PVM-X550! :mrgreen: Apparently this was unveiled at NAB 2016 this week. Too bad it's list price is $27,810.00 USD. :x
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-monito ... t-PVMX550/

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accaris wrote:I bet the black levels on that are godly.
They're godly on all OLEDs, it's the uniformity of dark greys that's not guaranteed to be. Nothing dramatic though, most led are worse on average.

Anyway those broadcast grade sets cost money because of the built-in pro features and tools we don't really need (as well as taxback feckery).
If they did a consumer model it would probably be awesome too (better than the LG) and cost significantly less.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by accaris »

Xyga wrote:
Anyway those broadcast grade sets cost money because of the built-in pro features and tools we don't really need (as well as taxback feckery).
If they did a consumer model it would probably be awesome too (better than the LG) and cost significantly less.
I'm no video engineer, but how would you even be able to connect a console to SDI? Use some kind of transcoder, maybe? Or is the single HDMI port your only option? I'm willing to bet that TV doesn't recognize 240p, that's for sure.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

Optional modules, control panels and stuff. All super expensive. That's expected, it's not a TV really...
But looking back their top-of-the range CRTs were even more expensive, so there's progress, sortof lol.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by andykara2003 »

How low is the lag though?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

We'll never know.

Here though: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled55e6 ... 274285.htm

2 frames is great. Still way too expensive though. :mrgreen:
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by jedman »

So what is the best option for a gaming tv now? None of these low lag Sony sets are available anymore.

Was looking at this from the new lineup but no reviews yet: https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/tele ... 750-series
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

Depends where you live, in the US they have the Vizio option (not 'great' but good bang/buck) else it's mostly Sony and Samsung.

As far as we know nothing's changed much in 2016.

No WD750 reviews yet indeed, dunno if there will ever be.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by jedman »

This looks interesting it is direct lit which should produce a better picture than edge lit to my understanding?

Not sure if it has a VA panel though.

https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/tele ... ifications
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

No idea, they have a history of using VA but the previous models in that category were edge-lit indeed.

What's interesting with the WD60/65 and WD75 is they have dropped Android.
Dunno if that means the lag is back to the good old 2013~2014 sub-1frame level, we need some good review to confirm, or someone to storm a retail store with a LB tester in hand.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by jedman »

That's interesting about the android tv didn't notice that. Was thinking of getting a 1080p tv as I don't have the money for a decent HDR 4K set, and don't see much point in just getting a cheaper 4k without HDR.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/w600d

720p tv.
650D should be up soon hopefully.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

Meh.

I understand most websites today would focus on reviewing 4K sets, so it's nice that some like Rtings would still test a few lower resolution ones...HD-Ready though ? :?

EDIT: you can bet the 650D is the same with a Full-HD panel (maybe VA though). Makes a decent entry-level set, but nothing remarkable.

It's too bad they probably won't review the WD75, which is the real interesting one.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Einzelherz »

I have a bit of info for the Samsung UN48JU6400F 4K set with a Wii as a test console.

It recognizes 240p as 720x240 but everything goes wrong from there. It tries VERY hard to soften the image and it's a full on Vaseline nightmare.

480i and 480p look better, but there's still some softening added instead of a clean scaling job. I get that it's not pixel perfect scaling at this resolution. It made NES and GEN era stuff look decent (in 480p) as long as you were not too close. Of the few 480p Wii titles I tried (Mario Kart, New SMB), they looked pretty good.

The biggest downside was lag, however. In 480p with the test suite, the manual last test (with wiimote) came to around 105ms. It wasn't surprising as platformers were pretty awful to play.

I couldn't find any upscaling options in the menus to mess around with other than disabling the 120hz or whatever it used to smooth motion.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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That's why it was so funny to me when people were saying 4K is great because you can use integer scaling on most resolutions (not 480p, but 240p and 720p). Like no way TV manufacturers actually implement integer scaling, that's just not a thing they do.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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There's always hope for emulators!
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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bobrocks95 wrote:That's why it was so funny to me when people were saying 4K is great because you can use integer scaling on most resolutions (not 480p, but 240p and 720p). Like no way TV manufacturers actually implement integer scaling, that's just not a thing they do.
Exactly.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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bobrocks95 wrote:That's why it was so funny to me when people were saying 4K is great because you can use integer scaling on most resolutions (not 480p, but 240p and 720p). Like no way TV manufacturers actually implement integer scaling, that's just not a thing they do.
Correct me if I'm wrong but they rather say more resolution = better fractional scaling.
In the hope that scaling artifacts will be hidden more efficiently if there's enough room for better resizing calulation.
That however seems to depend heavily on the said resizing method and is something true in the context of using a PC/GPU covering the full output resolution.
Cooperative software is sine-qua-non.

Personally I prefer integer scaling since it's easy and very light, it's right, fecking flawless, and either black bars or 'overscan' are problems only for those who can't deal with those, too OCD maybe (I don't laugh since I used to be like that)
Still, for more refined effects and indeed more occurrences when integer scaling offers useable correct ratios, a higher resolution is beneficial too, of course.
Yet even on a Full-HD panel integer is still awesome to have, plenty of source resolutions can be integer-scaled leaving either only slim black bars or little overscan.
And when there aren't good factors available, well, integer scaling is optional ya know. :p

Back on the topic of TVs (and external sources), I don't know if they do or don't, the thing is most manufacturers on first look use very basic/shitty interpolation, which seems to break things in most cases.
You can see the Sony sets do pretty good scaling, apparently integer, though it might really be 'close-to-integer with gentle~good interpolation' instead.
I'm okay with that, it's just too bad most review websites don't test TV's upscaling quality using revealing patterns but random pictures.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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You can see the Sony sets do pretty good scaling, apparently integer, though it might really be 'close-to-integer with gentle~good interpolation' instead.
certainly not integer. How else would you explain the great 480p results on the 1080p panel sets? They are using a very nice scaling engine with lots of influencing factors and likely multiple scaling steps. These engines are really COMPLEX. The problem is that most people think of these fucking standard interpolation techniques you get on all the software solutions (from bilinear ad bicubic to lanczos) and these just suck (hard!) compared to what a good hardware level scaler can do.

It's been 10 years now since the Gennum processors showed up and it's still unparalleled what these could do - to both video material and low res graphics.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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Hence the 'apparently' ! (should have written seemingly maybe) :wink:
I know it can't be, but it does look rather like it (though I was thinking of the 4K sets also so not just 480p).
How it's done is beyond me but since you're saying it's very complex, and seeing the good results what you say makes sense indeed, I too have never seen basic bilinear/bicubic/lanczos resizing look this good.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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bobrocks95 wrote:Like no way TV manufacturers actually implement integer scaling, that's just not a thing they do.
This is absolutely infuriating, given how popular gaming is and how simple it would be to implement. TV manufacturers aren't the only ones guilty of this, NVIDIA ignores it too https://forums.geforce.com/default/topi ... ling-mode/
Fudoh wrote:The problem is that most people think of these fucking standard interpolation techniques you get on all the software solutions (from bilinear ad bicubic to lanczos) and these just suck (hard!) compared to what a good hardware level scaler can do.

It's been 10 years now since the Gennum processors showed up and it's still unparalleled what these could do - to both video material and low res graphics.
Imagine my disappointment using Ptbi for the first time with the aforementioned methods (Wii U/720p) only to find out the Optoma HD3000 I've had for some time now does a way better job.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by bobrocks95 »

Haha I like the last post in that nVidia thread suggesting someone contacts AMD instead because they might actually listen to consumers and implement it.

I think we can all agree another non-fixed-pixel display in our lifetimes would be a nice pipedream...
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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bobrocks95 wrote:I think we can all agree another non-fixed-pixel display in our lifetimes would be a nice pipedream...
Build your own three-color scanning laser projection system? ;)
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by SNK-NEO-GEO »

Members, I have a question.. My brother has a Panasonic Plasma TH-C42HD18 made in 2008 in his bedroom which he never use, not a gamer.. I was looking for info on lag.. Is the bellow info acurate?

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/ ... ag-faq/p66
"The TH-C42HD18 has 6ms, but it has Game mode so I dont know the exact number to determine what is what. The TH-42px80u, on the other hand is WHACK. 8ms, but that as well has game mode so Idk"

Thanks for your input.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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I really doubt that's accurate for a 42" plasma from 2008. My 2006 Panasonic plasma has 5 frames of lag (though it isn't a consumer set).
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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The guy probably mistook it for an already wrong advertised panel response.
So it's twice inaccurate, like most of the information about displays you'll read on SRK.
Plasma lag has always been the domain of unreliability, placebo, and tons of BS anyway.
If you really want to know the truth, you'll need to do the test yourself using better methods like SMTT 2.0, or one suggested by Marqs apparently good as well and doable using the OSSC.
Be ready for disappointment though, for instance one famous for its supposedly near-zero lag, the ST50, after years of forums faery tales has been tested correctly using SMTT 2.0 @ 37ms.
Plasmas are pleasing for games thanks to the visible superior response/motion, and most people being unable to 'feel' 2 frames of delay or even 3, they'll think "no lag!", hence the legends.
But there's no rule, there never was, those had lag too like LCDs and I'd wager as much as most average TV still does today (most over 2~3 frames).
Really low lag on TVs, under 1 frame, is always a rare exception.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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Thank you! guys for the reply.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Einzelherz »

My 2013 plasma's lag via the 240p test suite is pretty good. It's around 16ms or 1 frame.

Edit: using the manual lag test.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

Einzelherz wrote:My 2013 plasma's lag via the 240p test suite is pretty good. It's around 16ms or 1 frame.

Edit: using the manual lag test.
Is that test reliable and accurate enough though ?
And are you confident you could spot a difference between 1, 2 ,3~ frames of delay ?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Exidna »

Xyga wrote:
accaris wrote:I bet the black levels on that are godly.
They're godly on all OLEDs, it's the uniformity of dark greys that's not guaranteed to be. Nothing dramatic though, most led are worse on average.
That's a $30,000 Sony broadcast OLED, not one of LG's consumer-grade panels. It will be perfect.
bobrocks95 wrote:That's why it was so funny to me when people were saying 4K is great because you can use integer scaling on most resolutions (not 480p, but 240p and 720p). Like no way TV manufacturers actually implement integer scaling, that's just not a thing they do.
Panasonic do on some models.
It's really disappointing that this isn't standard because 4K allows for pixel-perfect scaling of both 1080p and 720p - and nearest-neighbor scaling should be an almost zero-latency process too.
Xyga wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:That's why it was so funny to me when people were saying 4K is great because you can use integer scaling on most resolutions (not 480p, but 240p and 720p). Like no way TV manufacturers actually implement integer scaling, that's just not a thing they do.
Correct me if I'm wrong but they rather say more resolution = better fractional scaling.
In the hope that scaling artifacts will be hidden more efficiently if there's enough room for better resizing calulation.
This is true also.
Assuming that all else is equal, having more resolution on the display is always better for things like scaling.
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bobrocks95 wrote:I think we can all agree another non-fixed-pixel display in our lifetimes would be a nice pipedream...
Build your own three-color scanning laser projection system? ;)
Scanning laser projection has a lot of problems unfortunately.
Magnetic/electrostatic deflection of an electron beam in a CRT is significantly faster/"easier" than physical deflection of a laser beam - typically with micromirrors of some sort.
And then there are problems like speckle to deal with as well.

I would be surprised if large, high-brightness, high-resolution scanning laser projectors ever happen unless there is some sort of breakthrough.
What's more likely is the use of lasers as a light source in other types of fixed-pixel projector.
A laser-illuminated DLP would be really nice - though speckle may still be an issue.

I doubt there will ever be another display type which doesn't use fixed pixels.
And really, once you have enough resolution, it shouldn't matter. The main issue is latency rather than image quality.
It's possible to do non-integer scaling with minimal distortion or blurring of the image now.
The only remaining issue is that if you're wanting to do scanlines for a vertically scrolling game, that needs to be displayed at an even integer - but I don't think that's an insurmountable problem either.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

Exidna wrote:
Xyga wrote:it's the uniformity of dark greys that's not guaranteed to be. Nothing dramatic though, most led are worse on average.
That's a $30,000 Sony broadcast OLED, not one of LG's consumer-grade panels. It will be perfect.
I think I was refering to the LG sets in regards to dark grey uniformity issues, maybe badly phrased. Anyway that's not a huge deal.
Personally I don't underestimate LG's OLED sets, as much as we can criticize their obvious lack of care for details and refinement, technically they are currently selling the frigging best TVs money can get (lag is even down to 2 frames now), defeating all other existing flat panel displays in a vast majority of fields.
And I don't agree with assuming Sony broadcast = perfect, as long as we haven't got proof of it through thorough testing. Even seemingly perfect diamonds have their weaknesses.
The 2016 LGs could be extremely close to that performance at a fraction of the price, only lacking Sony's professional features and tools giving better control and correction.
The Sony OLED might be close to the current idea of perfection, probably...still. :P
That is cool, do we know which ones ?
It's too bad Panasonic haven't been up there with lag for a while as far as we know (which isn't much), and a shame only home-cinema-centric websites would continue to review their sets, because their reviewers are not focusing enough, if at all, on the performance tests that matter to gaming.

I'm more pissed off by the fact that apparently low-lag has become a marketed feature of some of their sets sets in Japan, and nowhere else. :?
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