Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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Einzelherz
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Einzelherz »

Xyga wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:My 2013 plasma's lag via the 240p test suite is pretty good. It's around 16ms or 1 frame.

Edit: using the manual lag test.
Is that test reliable and accurate enough though ?
And are you confident you could spot a difference between 1, 2 ,3~ frames of delay ?
I've run it several times and each run averages ten instances, so I'd give it some credence. I get about .3 - .5 frames on my PVM using the same test. IMO without daisy chaining a CRT to the TV is w the simplest method to check lag.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by bobrocks95 »

Exidna wrote:It's possible to do non-integer scaling with minimal distortion or blurring of the image now.
I'll believe it when I see it, though I haven't been going around looking at 4K TVs or anything.
Nice to see Panasonic having an integer scaling option, but it's ridiculous that it's just for 1080p sources.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Exidna »

bobrocks95 wrote:
Exidna wrote:It's possible to do non-integer scaling with minimal distortion or blurring of the image now.
I'll believe it when I see it, though I haven't been going around looking at 4K TVs or anything.

It's almost as sharp as nearest-neighbor scaling, but you don't get the ugly distortion/pixel crawl in motion that is typically present with unfiltered non-integer scaling.
I've gone from using the closest integer fit for all systems, to using the exact correct aspect ratio with non-integer scaling now.
The level of softening that is introduced with pixellate.cg is far less than using a CRT display. The higher your display's resolution is, the sharper it should be.
bobrocks95 wrote:Nice to see Panasonic having an integer scaling option, but it's ridiculous that it's just for 1080p sources.
I agree, it should work with 720p as well. Ideally all digital inputs.
You probably can't use integer scaling for analog inputs, since you don't know the source resolution.
I guess you could do vertical integer scaling and non-integer horizontal scaling for 240p sources, but I can't see a display manufacturer implementing anything like that.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by bobrocks95 »

Exidna wrote:
It's almost as sharp as nearest-neighbor scaling, but you don't get the ugly distortion/pixel crawl in motion that is typically present with unfiltered non-integer scaling.
I've gone from using the closest integer fit for all systems, to using the exact correct aspect ratio with non-integer scaling now.
The level of softening that is introduced with pixellate.cg is far less than using a CRT display. The higher your display's resolution is, the sharper it should be.
I can definitely agree that the pixellate algorithm looks great and is very pleasing to the eye. It'll be nice using emulators on high-res displays for sure, and it makes sense that more resolution will help.

The problem is that I've never seen a TV with a nice scaling algorithm comparable to it. They're limited by the scaler needing to be an all-in-one solution for film, video, etc. and always look too soft/blurred for my taste, even 480p sources. Maybe with 4K and higher TVs manufacturers will start to focus more on scaling since it's more prevalent? People say Sony's 480p handling is great, but I still don't think it looks all that impressive on my W700B when compared to a PC CRT or my old EDTV plasma.
bobrocks95 wrote:Nice to see Panasonic having an integer scaling option, but it's ridiculous that it's just for 1080p sources.
I agree, it should work with 720p as well. Ideally all digital inputs.
You probably can't use integer scaling for analog inputs, since you don't know the source resolution.
I guess you could do vertical integer scaling and non-integer horizontal scaling for 240p sources, but I can't see a display manufacturer implementing anything like that.[/quote]

240p probably won't ever be a consideration again for any display manufacturer. I guess the real test is if Samsung puts out a 4K, which I don't know, they might have already, and whether or not it recognizes 240p at all (don't most Samsung's recognize 240p?).
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

pixellate.cg looks nice indeed, though still a bit too sharp for my taste.

One cheap thing I like is bilinear + prescale 2 in MAME. it requires integer to be on, although it might break it with some resolutions (you have to pan the Cave games a bit or you'll see a tearing-scaling line artifact).
Exidna wrote:People say Sony's 480p handling is great, but I still don't think it looks all that impressive on my W700B when compared to a PC CRT or my old EDTV plasma.
It's more important that it is right even at that level of sharpness, and despite not being true integer as Fudoh underlined.
This, is what's great about it, add to it that it's still blazing fast lagwise of course and the package makes it pretty unique.
Honestly the vp50 Pro barely does any better in a match using all the potential of the two 'machines'.

Keep in mind people that one of the primary interests with integer scaling (or absolutely great fractional) is mainly to get even/correct fake 'scanlines'.
Few people actually like almost-bare upscaled and pixellated-look, so they rarely have concerns about artifacts in motion.
I'm an advocate of both though. ^^
Last edited by Xyga on Tue May 17, 2016 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by bobrocks95 »

Oh so is 480p scaling literally incorrect in most cases? Just done completely improperly?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

Depends on what target resolution of course, and you have to test with revealing patterns to know exactly how wrong it is, but yeah.
Tip: the smoother/blurrier, the wronger it might be.

EDIT, which reminds me I had planned to do a series of overscan/zoom tests on the W6, but I got swallowed by a vortex of life things.
I'll try to do it this week because June and the rest of summer will be very busy.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Exidna »

bobrocks95 wrote:I can definitely agree that the pixellate algorithm looks great and is very pleasing to the eye. It'll be nice using emulators on high-res displays for sure, and it makes sense that more resolution will help.

The problem is that I've never seen a TV with a nice scaling algorithm comparable to it. They're limited by the scaler needing to be an all-in-one solution for film, video, etc. and always look too soft/blurred for my taste, even 480p sources. Maybe with 4K and higher TVs manufacturers will start to focus more on scaling since it's more prevalent?
Sorry, my point was that it's possible to do good non-integer scaling with low-res 2D games now, even without 4K or higher resolution displays - so there's actually less of a disadvantage to having a fixed-pixel display than some might think.
Unfortunately you're correct that there are no TVs with this sort of processing - they are typically optimized for video, not gaming.
bobrocks95 wrote:People say Sony's 480p handling is great, but I still don't think it looks all that impressive on my W700B when compared to a PC CRT or my old EDTV plasma.
I can't really say about Sony's upscaling, but madVR running on my PC looks far better upscaling DVDs than displaying content natively on my CRT.
You get a much less aliased (but not blurry) and more natural looking image. Again, I think you need to really treat the TV as a monitor and handle scaling externally for the best results.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by BONKERS »

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/w650d

Seems like the W650 is a piece of shit.

Seems like decent quality 1080p TVs are now extinct with the industry pushing it's content barren 4k crap on everyone.
(When consoles still struggle to hit 1080p and the vast majority of content will never be beyond native 2k. Anime is still sub 1080p after nearly 20 years of digital animation. The PS4 Neo/XBO 2 will be no where near powerful enough to hit native 4k rendering in AAA games. A GTX 1080 can't hit 1080p60 in many AAA games)
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

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:(

So glad i got the w805b last year.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Fudoh »

Seems like the W650 is a piece of shit.
the important part of the type ID is the "D". Sony is reusing the model descriptions and just adding a D for the 2016 models.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

Still waiting for a WD75 review, but I doubt it will come from Rtings or any other US-based source since that series is not sold there (afaik).

But yeah the 2013~early2015 Sony W series were the swan's song of Full-HD LCD tellys.
Around the same time plasma died, what a great and sad period, all the best before the curtain.

Not here but on another community I remember people not taking me seriously when I told them to hurry and get at least one, they loled believeing products would only improve afterwards.
Today I can enjoy trolling them posting "told ya" every time they come to ask what's a badass model for dem bois.
(I'm helped by the very few other who did pay attention and read Fudoh's review when I shared the link though)

Now if only Sony would make at least one of their mid-range 4Ks series go low-lag...nobody would mind since the scaling is good.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by okerlo »

I didn't read the whole thread but it seems like I really should go out now and get a decent television, more and more companies are switching over to 4k sets and I really don't see me getting one like that any time soon. Still have an old LG which is probably about 6 years old now, not a bad set but I better get an upgrade now, I don't want to hunt for used models in a few years.

Guess the W705C isn't as good as the W705B? I'm living in Germany so there might be some interesting models not available in the US.
My head is spinning because of all the different model numbers :D

edit:
I'm not only playing videogames but also watching a lot of movies (DVD, Bluray) so maybe I should get a nice allrounder?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

This website looking like an outdated spanish rtings, found 32ms on the W705C (LB middle bar): http://opinioteca.com/televisores/por-marca/sony/w705c/
If we believe that Polish website (link somewhere in the thread) the only 'C' series with low lag similar to the old A and B, is the 32" W705C.

You are late to the Sony, now it's pretty much only Samsung if you're looking for low-lag sets.

For instance they have that KU6300 model just a hair under 20ms, http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ku6300
Flicker-free over 20% brightness (it's the review saying it, dunno if it's reliable info), only downsides are a tad slow panel and overall bad TV for anything but games.
And since it's Samsung the release recommended prices are abusive of course.

Not sure which is the corresponding EU model, maybe KU6079 ? if yes that's 665€ for the 40" model, and 699€ for the 43".
Ugh, it may be only me but for the money I'd rather buy a good large PC monitor.

EDIT: if you do more than games you're going to have to pay for higher-end Samsung 4K models. All overpriced but destockied 2015 model might be more affordable, like the JU7500 which was very popular (if you don't mind the curve)
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by eric90000 »

I read somewhere that the Sony 755C is the successor to the 705B...I may be wrong though. I'm currently wading through so much TV crap online trying to choose a new HDTV that'll be good for the OSSC and other gaming. Confused is an understatement.... For now I think it's between the Sony 705C and the 755C. That'll probably change by tomorrow though, the internet is a scary and confusing place.

According to the Sony Ireland website: http://www.sony.ie/electronics/bravia-tvs-ces (scroll down to the seperate TV's themselves), the 705C (and the cheaper R5C) are the only TV's which aren't listed as android TV's....maybe the 705C is a exception with lower input lag as it's not running android?

Any suggestions for a decent 40-ish inch TV these days? :?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

Not a direct successor (that would be the W705C) since the 755C adds some MotionFlow motion compensation settings for sports and movies.
It's got about 2 frames of lag at best according to digitalversus.

Among the models ending in C (= 2015 series) only the 32W705C has low lag...well, as far as we know and if that Poland review is right.
I'm more interested in knowing the lag of the WD75 series (= 2016) which seems to be the best they have in Full-HD, with no Android as well.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by eric90000 »

Xyga wrote:Not a direct successor (that would be the W705C) since the 755C adds some MotionFlow motion compensation settings for sports and movies.
It's got about 2 frames of lag at best according to digitalversus.

Among the models ending in C (= 2015 series) only the 32W705C has low lag...well, as far as we know and if that Poland review is right.
I'm more interested in knowing the lag of the WD75 series (= 2016) which seems to be the best they have in Full-HD, with no Android as well.
Ah ok, so it may be just the 32" 705C that has low input lag....I wish there were better resources online for finding definite info on leo bodnar tests etc. I'm after something thats about 40" so unfortunately that rules that one out for me.

Just looking at the WD75 now, says it has "Ultra-fast response times" on the Sony website, whether that's true is another thing. There are no reviews of that TV yet on Amazon etc. I may have to just wait a while until more info becomes available.

There seems to be quite a lot different versions of the 43" WD75 (WD752 / WD753 / WD754 / WD755 / WD756 / WD757), can't seem to find any info on what the differences are.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Ed Oscuro »

eric90000 wrote:Just looking at the WD75 now, says it has "Ultra-fast response times" on the Sony website
They say that of all their TVs; it's a throwaway line. It also refers (probably) to pixel transition time, not total input lag.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by eric90000 »

Was in a TV store today, two TV's caught my eye: Sony KDL-43W809C (2015, android) and KDL-43WD752 (2016, not android).

Don't suppose anyone has any info on these sets as gaming TV's? Been looking online a lot but it's hard to dig up much info on em.

I also keep coming back to the 40" 705C, several hundred euro cheaper than both of those sets...
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Hoagtech »

eric90000 wrote:Was in a TV store today, two TV's caught my eye: Sony KDL-43W809C (2015, android) and KDL-43WD752 (2016, not android).

Don't suppose anyone has any info on these sets as gaming TV's? Been looking online a lot but it's hard to dig up much info on em.

I also keep coming back to the 40" 705C, several hundred euro cheaper than both of those sets...
I would stay away from the WD752 unless you own a LEO BODNAR.

The W809C showed an average of 35ms input lag.

That's really good but not incredible. Anything under 45 is considered good enough to compete.

I would reccomend going to sites like RTINGS.COM and Google "input lag database" . And make your buying decision on a combination of picture quality AND input lag.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by eric90000 »

Hoagtech wrote: I would stay away from the WD752 unless you own a LEO BODNAR.

The W809C showed an average of 35ms input lag.

That's really good but not incredible. Anything under 45 is considered good enough to compete.

I would reccomend going to sites like RTINGS.COM and Google "input lag database" . And make your buying decision on a combination of picture quality AND input lag.
Cool thank you. Yeah I've been checking out a few of those sites alright, a lot of TV's aren't listed unfortunately, especially European models which is a shame. I think I'll stay away from the WD752....the connections on it are actually extremely limited too. From what I can tell (according to this russian thread by a guy who tested a whole load of TV's with a Leo Bodnar: http://www.vybortv.ru/forum-o-televizor ... f=12&t=718) the KDL-40W705C has an input lag of approximately 31ms in game mode.

In your opinion would the 43" W809C (35ms input lag) be worth an extra €300 more than the 40" 705C (31ms input lag).... Both sets are 2015 models however the 705C isn't android and the W809C is. The 3" screen size difference isn't a huge deal, I'm more worried about picture quality and whether or not I'd notice the 6ms difference in input lag. Perhaps the W809C, having a faster refresh and being a series higher than the 7 would have a better, smoother picture?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Fudoh »

For videogames the differences between the W7 and W8 don't matter. The W8 will offer more motionflow settings which you might find useful for TV or movie material though.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Xyga »

IIRC the W8 'B' (2014) under 50" sometimes had visible screendoor effect due to the passive 3D layer.
Also the MotionFlow options were rather limited, again only the 50" and up models featured all settings.

I'd advise to double-check if it's not also the case with the 'C' (2015) W8 models.
If yes, then there is really no point in buying a W8.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by eric90000 »

Thanks for the responses :) I was already leaning towards the 705C, just because I'm not sure the W809C is worth the extra €300....it will be mainly used for games anyway so the extra X-Reality Pro stuff doesn't make that much of a difference. With the pound sterling so low at the moment I can get a pretty good deal from the UK so I will grab the 705C and let you guys know what I think.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by eric90000 »

P.S. I mocked up a little setup diagram for my planned OSSC setup....would love to know what you guys think.

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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by juji82 »

give some Wii U love to your setup!
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by kel »

eric90000 wrote:P.S. I mocked up a little setup diagram for my planned OSSC setup....would love to know what you guys think.

Image
I think maybe the Hardware section should be renamed the OCD Help section. Get a couple of therapists in here to help us with our serious disorder and all is good :mrgreen:

Nah seriously, Just play one console at a time and one game at a time and save yourself all the headaches of that time consuming mess of wires. It will never be complete, there will always be something that you will want to add or change. Just my 2 cents worth after trying multiple "setups" in the past and never managing to spend time on what I'm supposed to be doing, which is enjoying some games.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by Einzelherz »

kel wrote:
eric90000 wrote:P.S. I mocked up a little setup diagram for my planned OSSC setup....would love to know what you guys think.

Image
I think maybe the Hardware section should be renamed the OCD Help section. Get a couple of therapists in here to help us with our serious disorder and all is good :mrgreen:

Nah seriously, Just play one console at a time and one game at a time and save yourself all the headaches of that time consuming mess of wires. It will never be complete, there will always be something that you will want to add or change. Just my 2 cents worth after trying multiple "setups" in the past and never managing to spend time on what I'm supposed to be doing, which is enjoying some games.
I agree. But I'm the type who would rather keep the consoles in a display place and pull them whenever I want to play.
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by bobrocks95 »

If you're posting in hardware at all you're already OCD and spend more times fiddling with cords and video settings than actually playing games. Might as well embrace and go as crazy as possible with it.

If you HDMI mod the Gamecube and Wii (Wii needs a bit more time though) you can simplify the setup quite a bit by removing the component switch. If you installed the NESRGB yourself you can probably handle installing both, though easier solutions are supposedly on their way.

Only other thing I'm curious about is why you're using component on the PS2. Though a hilariously small number of games support 480p, won't you be unable to use it at all with a SCART cable? Maybe your thought process is that RGB is less noisy on the PS2 so it outweighs the benefits of a handful of titles supporting 480p?
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Re: Sony W6 series LCD review - 2013's best gaming TV

Post by eric90000 »

juji82 wrote:give some Wii U love to your setup!
Haha, I don't have one :lol: I will look into one though...
kel wrote: I think maybe the Hardware section should be renamed the OCD Help section. Get a couple of therapists in here to help us with our serious disorder and all is good :mrgreen:

Nah seriously, Just play one console at a time and one game at a time and save yourself all the headaches of that time consuming mess of wires. It will never be complete, there will always be something that you will want to add or change. Just my 2 cents worth after trying multiple "setups" in the past and never managing to spend time on what I'm supposed to be doing, which is enjoying some games.
Yeah it is a sickness alright, although I strangely enjoy the whole process of setting everything up and troubleshooting problems, modding consoles etc. I do agree though, it leads to less time playing games and more time worrying about cables etc. This will be my first proper setup with all my consoles wired up and ready to go. Up til now I have been just playing one at a time. After watching the My Life in Gaming channel on YouTube it's hard not to go overboard :mrgreen:
Einzelherz wrote: I agree. But I'm the type who would rather keep the consoles in a display place and pull them whenever I want to play.
I'm planning to have all the consoles set up in some form of nice display so they show off the collection but are also fully wired up and ready to go.
bobrocks95 wrote:If you're posting in hardware at all you're already OCD and spend more times fiddling with cords and video settings than actually playing games. Might as well embrace and go as crazy as possible with it.

If you HDMI mod the Gamecube and Wii (Wii needs a bit more time though) you can simplify the setup quite a bit by removing the component switch. If you installed the NESRGB yourself you can probably handle installing both, though easier solutions are supposedly on their way.

Only other thing I'm curious about is why you're using component on the PS2. Though a hilariously small number of games support 480p, won't you be unable to use it at all with a SCART cable? Maybe your thought process is that RGB is less noisy on the PS2 so it outweighs the benefits of a handful of titles supporting 480p?
The PS2 can actually output 480p via SCART using sync on green. Apparently it's a cleaner signal than the component, which as you say can be a noisy signal on the PS2. Check out this vid by Bob over at retroRGB: https://youtu.be/6pzTfdUcAfg?t=6m41s

To be truthful, I don't have the NES RGB modded yet, although I'm OK at modding consoles (so far I've done Sega MegaDrive 50/60hz & JAP/ENG switches, PS1 modchip to region unlock and play burned games and also softmodded an Xbox original and upgraded the stock fan). I've been toying with the idea of ordering one pre-modded, although I may just buy the kit and do it myself.

The price of the HDMI mods are a little bit off-putting, for the moment RGB should be fine for my setup. although HDMI it's certainly something to look into.
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