Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath x4

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Fudoh
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by Fudoh »

When I tinkered with this back then, the display I used at that moment wasn't able to render 1920x1080 in 4:3 resolution, so I had to go for that ultrawide input to the x4.

If your display allows a 4:3 squeeze, you can go for a considerably larger (= higher) picture in the first place. Maybe large enough that you can forget about all the AR controls and go with the underscan setting alone.

A higher (visible) vertical input resolution to the x4 might give you better rescaling results as well. Give it another try if you can set your display to 4:3.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by BuckoA51 »

Give it another try if you can set your display to 4:3.
Sadly not, I think my new Dell monitor can, but I can just rotate that anyway :)

I'll definitely keep the Datapath though, it's such a cool little toy, plus I can try it with my Framemeister at some point when I'm less busy.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by Fudoh »

If you have an arcade stick with quick connects, so you can easily swap left and right, try the mirroring feature on a vertical shoot'em up. It's amazing. Like playing a new game. Basically what I've used the x4 for since.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

I've been happiest starting with linex3. To get clean scanlines, it's a trade off. I always end up accepting a little "overscan" loss on the top and bottom of the rotated image and the aspect ratio is never quite right. Scanlines usually aren't worth the effort.

Of course, if you abandon scanlines, you can get the entire image on screen and the right aspect ratio with minimal delay.

No scanlines isn't really a big deal for me, because the other options to rotate my jamma shmups have 2.5 to 3 frames of lag. With this, it just adds one frame frame of lag to the chain.

For rotation:
If you're going to use Framemeister, you're adding 20ms of delay. That puts you right back around 2.5 frames of lag. If you're going to accept 2.5 to 3 frames anyway, you might look at some machines that can do all the necessary scaling, rotation, and padding (without needing the DVDO in the chain).
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by BuckoA51 »

I've been happiest starting with linex3. To get clean scanlines, it's a trade off. I always end up accepting a little "overscan" loss on the top and bottom of the rotated image and the aspect ratio is never quite right. Scanlines usually aren't worth the effort.
Can you share your settings?

I'm not aware of any other machine that can do the rotation other than the Image Anyplace. It's not a big deal anyway, I just saw the Datapath at a (sort of) reasonable price and thought I'd have a play :)
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

BuckoA51 wrote:
I've been happiest starting with linex3. To get clean scanlines, it's a trade off. I always end up accepting a little "overscan" loss on the top and bottom of the rotated image and the aspect ratio is never quite right. Scanlines usually aren't worth the effort.
Can you share your settings?
Absolutely. :) Please keep in mind that this isn't scientific, perfect, or test pattern material. It's just the best compromise output to my eye. The lines and aspect ratio are never right.

If you like, you can easily turn off scanlines from the OSSC and quickly iron out the aspect ratio if you start from this profile and tweak a little. That's what I do.

Supergun -> OSSC -> DVDOvp50pro -> Datapath x4 -> Display

OSSC:
Linex3

DVDvp50pro:
Input Asp Ratio -> FrameAR -> 16.9
Input Asp Ratio -> ActiveAR -> 1:55:1
Input Asp Ratio -> Zoom -> Hor -> 1.099x
Input Adjust -> Overscan 10%
Output Setup -> Format -> 720p-60
Output Setup -> Aspect Ratio -> Display -> User -> 1.01:1
Output Setup -> Aspect Ratio -> Screen -> User -> 1.55:1
Output Setup -> Aspect Ratio -> Underscan -> 26

Datapath x4:
Input capture:
Region 1
capture 0 x 0, 1280 x 720
Rotate 270°

Output:
1920 x 1080 @ 60Hz
CVT reduced blanking

(Of course, the Datapath will automatically adjust the output refresh rate slightly below 60Hz, but that's not a problem.)
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by parodius »

BuckoA51 wrote: I'm not aware of any other machine that can do the rotation other than the Image Anyplace. It's not a big deal anyway, I just saw the Datapath at a (sort of) reasonable price and thought I'd have a play :)
Fudoh recently mentioned the Aurora Multimedia Dido Jr.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by Fudoh »

@orange808: any particular reason why you have the DVDO output in 720p instead of 1080p ?
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

Fudoh wrote:@orange808: any particular reason why you have the DVDO output in 720p instead of 1080p ?
On my Vizio, I like the look of the output better when I let the Datapath do the upscaling. Just preference.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by Fudoh »

Just wondering about the following:

Wouldn't it work to swap around the x4 and the DVDO ? If the Datapath was compatible with x2 or x3 from the OSSC, one could let the x4 rotate the fullscreen output of the OSSC (the output would be full screen again, but rotated and maybe in 4:3 or 5:4 instead of 16:9). This would give the DVDO more resolution to work with and it would possibly be enough to set up an anamorphic output to get that additional horizontal squeeze neccessary.

I could imagine the DVDO accepting a 5:4 1280x1024 resolution from the Datapath.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

Fudoh wrote:Just wondering about the following:

Wouldn't it work to swap around the x4 and the DVDO ? If the Datapath was compatible with x2 or x3 from the OSSC, one could let the x4 rotate the fullscreen output of the OSSC (the output would be full screen again, but rotated and maybe in 4:3 or 5:4 instead of 16:9). This would give the DVDO more resolution to work with and it would possibly be enough to set up an anamorphic output to get that additional horizontal squeeze neccessary.

I could imagine the DVDO accepting a 5:4 1280x1024 resolution from the Datapath.
I tried that, but I ran into a roadblock.

When I try feeding the Datapath directly from the OSSC, I get some strange behaviors. Random noisy broken white horizontal lines and drops in sync. Happens with linex2, linex3, and when passthrough transcoding the XRGB-1 RGBHV to DVI. Happens with all my sources--not just supergun jamma boards. Happens all the time--with Datapath feeding directly to the display and when chaining through the DVDO. I do not see any strange behaviors when simply displaying test patterns from the Datapath--only with the OSSC input signal.

I assume it's a timing issue or that I have a bad Datapath unit. Regardless, the Datapath gladly accepts the DVDO output signal as input. My Datapath hates the OSSC. :(

I still need to try feeding the XRGB-1 through the Extron RGBHV to HDMI--and into the Datapath. That might work.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by BuckoA51 »

I tried that, but I ran into a roadblock.

When I try feeding the Datapath directly from the OSSC, I get some strange behaviors. Random noisy broken white horizontal lines and drops in sync. Happens with linex2, linex3, and when passthrough transcoding the XRGB-1 RGBHV to DVI. Happens with all my sources--not just supergun jamma boards. Happens all the time--with Datapath feeding directly to the display and when chaining through the DVDO. I do not see any strange behaviors when simply displaying test patterns from the Datapath--only with the OSSC input signal.

I assume it's a timing issue or that I have a bad Datapath unit. Regardless, the Datapath gladly accepts the DVDO output signal as input. My Datapath hates the OSSC. :(

I still need to try feeding the XRGB-1 through the Extron RGBHV to HDMI--and into the Datapath. That might work.
Did you have your OSSC set to DVI output mode? in HDMI mode I ran into all kinds of trouble but in DVI mode it worked flawlessly. That was when I was first experimenting with just the Datapath and the OSSC.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

BuckoA51 wrote:
I tried that, but I ran into a roadblock.

When I try feeding the Datapath directly from the OSSC, I get some strange behaviors. Random noisy broken white horizontal lines and drops in sync. Happens with linex2, linex3, and when passthrough transcoding the XRGB-1 RGBHV to DVI. Happens with all my sources--not just supergun jamma boards. Happens all the time--with Datapath feeding directly to the display and when chaining through the DVDO. I do not see any strange behaviors when simply displaying test patterns from the Datapath--only with the OSSC input signal.

I assume it's a timing issue or that I have a bad Datapath unit. Regardless, the Datapath gladly accepts the DVDO output signal as input. My Datapath hates the OSSC. :(

I still need to try feeding the XRGB-1 through the Extron RGBHV to HDMI--and into the Datapath. That might work.
Did you have your OSSC set to DVI output mode? in HDMI mode I ran into all kinds of trouble but in DVI mode it worked flawlessly. That was when I was first experimenting with just the Datapath and the OSSC.
I'm glad to hear it wasn't just me. I was worried I might have a bad Datapath unit. :)

Yes. It's in DVI mode, but there's an FC-49 in the chain that could be the issue. I'll try pulling DVI output directly from the OSSC--instead of running the HDMI out into a HDMI->DVI adapter at the Datapath input.

Slightly off topic:
FYI, the Dido Jr does work as a "single box solution" to accept OSSC input and output a very respectable scanlined 1080p with correct aspect ratio and rotated 90°(or 270°)--with a little tweaking in the menus. Thankfully, tweaking the Dido Jr settings is a little easier than using the DVDO. The downsides of the Dido Jr are ~2.5 frames of lag and frame rate conversion. The Dido Jr doesn't offer a way to lock the output frame rate to the input frame rate (that I know of), so scrolling is never quite right.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by BuckoA51 »

I'm glad to hear it wasn't just me. I was worried I might have a bad Datapath unit. :)
Make sure your OSSC is on the latest firmware too.
The downsides of the Dido Jr are ~2.5 frames of lag and frame rate conversion.
Pretty big downside... :(
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by Fudoh »

But then again 2.5 frames of an OSSC+Dido combo are identical to the FM+Datapath and the Didos are not this expensive.

How the framerate conversion will affect you will certainly depend on each individual source. The x4 also doesn't lock the framerate (iirc). You can set it pretty precisely, but unless you do that for each source, you'll still end up with a framerate adjustment during the processing.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by BuckoA51 »

So I got this looking pretty good:-

Imageyokotate-test by videogameperfection, on Flickr

This is going OSSC->Datapath->VP 50 Pro.

OSSC settings - DVI output mode, Line 3x.
Datapath settings - Rotate 270, Input 1280x720, capture area entire image
VP50 Pro settings -
Input aspect ratio -> Frame AR - 4:3
Input aspect ratio -> Active AR 1.33.1
Output Setup -> Aspect Ratio -> Display -> User -> 3.00.1
Output Setup -> Aspect Ratio -> Screen 16:9
Output Setup -> Aspect Ratio -> Underscan 0

Looks great, scanlines work, the only downside is you intermittently get a little flickering line/speckle on the image. It's not bad enough to make it unplayable, but definitely noticeable. I wonder if it's because there's no frame lock (I thought setting Genlock->Active Input on the Datapath would frame lock but I guess not?)

Game I was testing with was Battle Garegga Saturn version in tate mode.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by Fudoh »

I thought setting Genlock->Active Input on the Datapath would frame lock but I guess not?
sounds like it, but I don't remember how the wide the supported frequency range is. Do you know the Saturn's exact output refresh rate at 240p ? Maybe you need to define an output timing that's closer to the Saturn's refresh rate.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by BuckoA51 »

sounds like it, but I don't remember how the wide the supported frequency range is. Do you know the Saturn's exact output refresh rate at 240p ? Maybe you need to define an output timing that's closer to the Saturn's refresh rate.
Only what OSSC is telling me. Perhaps these little flickers are not due to framerate but something else. Usually when there's a frame lock issue on the VP50 you see a straight white line through the image. I had a pretty good attempt but couldn't eliminate them.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

I was fighting to get the Datapath x4 set up to rotate vertical games today and I decided to try my Calibre/Kramer HQV machine again. (These machines are sold under many names including:
Calibre/Eiki HQView/LEDView and the Kramer 790 series.

I've been particularly hard on these machines for video games, because I feel Calibre's marketing is misleading. They claim 4ms of processing lag in low latency mode (without warp or pan/tilt/zoom) and 4:4:4 chroma. The machines I have owned do not deliver and another respected member verified my findings with a Kramer branded Calibre unit. I think Calibre lied.

What Calibre fails to mention is that the machine uses a full frame buffer all the time and the machine spends a couple milliseconds processing the buffer. The four milliseconds is on top of that. Misleading? Heck yeah it is!

The 4:4:4 claim is leftover from Silicon Optix when they marketed the Reon (the chip used in these Calibre HQV machines). The internal processing is compressed and it's obvious. It's not a true 4:4:4 machine. Calibre repeated this claim, but they know better. Calibre makes video processors; they know it's not 4:4:4 internal processing.

My contact with their customer service was awful. They just fed me condescending lies when I asked how to enable the 4ms processing and 4:4:4 pipeline. Basically, they told me I'm just some wingnut that bought their unit at auction.

In use, the machine doesn't allow for enough underscan to rotate 90° degrees and see the entire image. Even after activating Pan/Tilt/Zoom (and adding another frame of lag), some of the image was cut off.

Naturally, all this turned me off. Considered as a stand alone processor, I didn't like the results. Also, I was pretty upset that I ended up with compressed processing and over 20ms of lag for simple scaling work. (Activating warp/rotate, deinterlacing, and pan/tilt/zoom adds more lag.)

What I didn't do was consider the machine as an add on and companion for a DVDO. The 4:2:2 internal processing is no big deal, because the DVDO is 4:2:2 and the DVDO solves the padding issue ** easily. **

The Calibre HQV machines have a unique feature: selectable processing versus latency. I found that setting the machine to accept and output 1080p with "maintain aspect" enabled and only the warp features enabled is ~25ms of lag.

That's not as bad as it sounds.

The Datapath x4 can rotate without padding in 16ms (add 6ms to use a DVDO for padding). Also the Datapath bas no frame lock and it's a huge pain to get scanlines to look right. On the other hand, scanlines look great from the Calibre and the Calibre has frame lock. Also, it's easy to set up the Calibre. So, you get something for the extra processing time. Both machines need a DVDO in the chain to help with padding.

All together, using the Calibre machine as an add on with the DVDO rotates games in two frames of lag with scanlines and very little effort. That's faster than Dido (2 1/2 frames) and the Dido has no frame lock. The Datapath x4 has no frame lock, either. The old Silicon Optix IA-100 is slower (3 frames), it doesn't do scanlines, and it only outputs 720p. There are some newer video wall processors out there that do padding, but the fastest one I have demoed is also ~25ms and that machine was too short on features to be considered a stand alone processor.

So, I've changed my mind. For rotating games, the Calibre machines are a viable solution as an add on paired with a DVDO. It's easier to setup padding and the frame lock automatically gets rid of studdering. 2 frames of lag is manageable with a good display.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by parodius »

Nice to have another option.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by Fudoh »

In use, the machine doesn't allow for enough underscan to rotate 90° degrees and see the entire image. Even after activating Pan/Tilt/Zoom (and adding another frame of lag), some of the image was cut off.
I think you can get around that without adding a DVDO.

I ran into the same issue initially, but it was gone once I used another processing mode (in the menu where you can choose from Keystone, Rotation, Portrait 90°, Portrait 270° etc). I think I tried to use the rotation mode first, but it had the limitation you mentioned above and using one of the portrait modes solved it for me (could have been vice versa though).

I still have the Kramer here, so I can check if you like.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

Fudoh wrote:
In use, the machine doesn't allow for enough underscan to rotate 90° degrees and see the entire image. Even after activating Pan/Tilt/Zoom (and adding another frame of lag), some of the image was cut off.
I think you can get around that without adding a DVDO.

I ran into the same issue initially, but it was gone once I used another processing mode (in the menu where you can choose from Keystone, Rotation, Portrait 90°, Portrait 270° etc). I think I tried to use the rotation mode first, but it had the limitation you mentioned above and using one of the portrait modes solved it for me (could have been vice versa though).

I still have the Kramer here, so I can check if you like.
Thanks, Fudoh. That would be good.

I'll also turn it on again today and check it out again.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by Fudoh »

about the Calibre units not being full 4:4:4: absolutely right, but they do 4:2:2 really good. Considerably better than DVDO or even Lumagen. I've been using analogue sources on it only, so maybe the A/D stage is done in 4:4:4 and only the further processing in done in 4:2:2.

Anyway, here's how mine behaves for rotation (source being a 480p fullscreen image):

If I set the Warp mode to portrait 90° or 270° the image is massively zoomed in first (basically so the first and last line of the source touch the left and right sides of the screen). If you now enable PTZ and set the zoom level to its minimum (50%) you're still losing parts of the image on top and bottom. That's what you've been seing.

If you set the Warp mode to rotation instead and manually set the rotate option to +/-90°, it's base zoom makes the image touch top and bottom instead. If you now enable PTZ you have to set the zoom to about 85% to see everything and you still have plenty of room to zoom out even further.

I *LOVE* the barrel option btw. Especially with a small active (vertical) screen, it adds a super-arcady touch to the image.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

Fudoh wrote:about the Calibre units not being full 4:4:4: absolutely right, but they do 4:2:2 really good. Considerably better than DVDO or even Lumagen. I've been using analogue sources on it only, so maybe the A/D stage is done in 4:4:4 and only the further processing in done in 4:2:2.

Anyway, here's how mine behaves for rotation (source being a 480p fullscreen image):

If I set the Warp mode to portrait 90° or 270° the image is massively zoomed in first (basically so the first and last line of the source touch the left and right sides of the screen). If you now enable PTZ and set the zoom level to its minimum (50%) you're still losing parts of the image on top and bottom. That's what you've been seing.

If you set the Warp mode to rotation instead and manually set the rotate option to +/-90°, it's base zoom makes the image touch top and bottom instead. If you now enable PTZ you have to set the zoom to about 85% to see everything and you still have plenty of room to zoom out even further.

I *LOVE* the barrel option btw. Especially with a small active (vertical) screen, it adds a super-arcady touch to the image.
Thanks for testing, Fudoh.

The Pan/Tilt/Zoom adds a frame of lag. I left it off, manually rotated, and changed the Edge Control for the left and right. Magically, it works with no DVDO! :) I don't know how what I did wrong before... I could swear I tried this before and it didn't work. (Maybe I'm crazy.) Does yours do this without P/T/Z?

Right now, I've got the OSSC Linex2 rotated and it looks pretty good. Very nice. And, just a frame and a half of lag. :) :)

The barrel option is really cool, but I hate what it does to my scanlines.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by Fudoh »

I think I never used the Edge control settings, but now that you mention it, they may be able to replace what I do on the PTZ menu right now. Gotta try that tomorrow.

I found that when you switch around between various warp settings it sometimes remembers zoom settings made before (in a completely different situation) and you end up with weird results.

How's the input compatibility with the various OSSC output modes ?
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

Fudoh wrote:I think I never used the Edge control settings, but now that you mention it, they may be able to replace what I do on the PTZ menu right now. Gotta try that tomorrow.

I found that when you switch around between various warp settings it sometimes remembers zoom settings made before (in a completely different situation) and you end up with weird results.

How's the input compatibility with the various OSSC output modes ?
Of course, linex2 works.

No linex4 or linex5. :(

Linex3 works for scaling without rotation just fine. It recognizes linex3 as 1366x768 and I can't get linex3 to look right without enabling P/T/Z.

Edit:
My HDMI switch was preventing x4 and x5 from working properly.

x4 and x5 works fine. Beware of EDID issues with this machine.
Last edited by orange808 on Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

Following up on the Calibre HQV Reon machines:

I went ahead and tested with the warp design software today with the OSSC linex2 feeding the units directly. Using the edge adjustment was making the aspect ratio slightly wrong and it was driving me nuts. I needed to zoom the image for proper padding and maintain the right aspect ratio.

I'm very happy with the results. The HQView 320 and Kramer vp-794 output identical results.

Good news: The PC software offers full control over manipulating the image. This includes rotation, barrel, and plenty of zoom freedom. When I enabled my custom warp map, I was surprised when the unit did not automatically enable Pan/Tilt/Zoom. So, I've got low lag, good aspect ratio, padding, frame lock, and scanlines for tate mode. You just have to make a custom warp map with the free software.

In short, the warp design software allows for very flexibile manipulation of the image with a lag cost of ~25ms. This is the fastest HQV I've seen.

I'm going to go ahead and call it a day on hunting tate rotation machines. This is it. The Calibre HQV implementation will probably be my tate rotation machine for the near future.
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by orange808 »

PSA for shoppers.
Spoiler
[url=https:///]Image[/url]
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by parodius »

Do you guys know this one ?
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/auction/q214475931
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My sales thread : 2020/07/20..MASTER.VER.
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Fudoh
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Re: Condensed awesomeness / Yokotate project mk.V / Datapath

Post by Fudoh »

yes, I have the RS-1550B (DVI in/out) unit.

Very nice quality (full 4:4:4 processing), fantastic menus (you actually get it right away), but a little bit on the slow end with IIRC 2.5 frames of total processing delay.

For the analogue unit it's too expensive. The digital ones are usually in that ballpark. In general I would say 'nice', if you have a lagfree display and lagfree source (OSSC), otherwise it can add up. The Calibre/Kramer units that orange808 mentioned above are probably a better choice IF you can find an affordable one.


PS: what on earth were you looking for, when you found that auction ?
Last edited by Fudoh on Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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