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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:22 pm 



Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 11
Triaxis wrote:
240p sources roll when connected to the 4046. Maybe those jumpers inside the unit can be configured to work with 240p but I can't find any documents online as to what the jumpers actualy do.

I was asking myself the same and tried a few things. So just in case anyone else was wondering: I've quickly gone through the 27 possible Jumper combinations (found 3 Jumpers total, each with 3 pins) and sadly none would stop the image of non-interlaced sources from rolling by. Maybe there's more options that matter (I did it with the three "Standard"-Dip-Switches set to OFF/up and the "Auto"-Switch to ON/down), but I kinda gave up there after none of this seemed to make a difference.
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:09 pm 



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I apologize ahead of time for the necropost, but I haven’t found a more recent thread and figured that posting here instead of making a new thread may make it more likely that the original posters will see this and respond.

I have been looking for a high quality decoder for Composite/S-Video to RGBs (or RGBHV or RGsB if RGBs isn’t possible) to better integrate the few consoles I have that can only output composite and/or s-video into my setup. The majority of my retro setup runs RGBs through a big boy 32x16 extron Crosspoint (along with a 203Rxi, Garo Component to RGBs, and Toro DC2RGBs) to a Sony PVM-20L5, Ikegami T20-17R, 65” TCL 6 Series via OSSC, and Sony KV-40XBR700 (mainly for lightguns especially Naomi & Dreamcast). The Crosspoint is setup for web control using Dochartaigh’s awesome design, and it’s also setup to allow voice control through my google home units. However, the few consoles I have that cannot output RGBs, RGsB, VGA, or Component cannot work well with this setup. I have to use a dedicated individual output for S-Video & another for composite for each of the 4 displays, and I have to manually change the video source on the displays to/from Composite/S-Video/RGBs each time I want to use one of these systems. In additiom, depending on the decoder, the console, and the display or scaled it may also be possible to get improved video quality if the composite/s-video decoder is higher quality than the one built into the display/scaler.

So anyway TLDR - I need a Composite/S-Video to RGBs (or RGBHV/RGsB) decoder. Has anyone been able to get the Kramer FC-4046 to work with 240P sources? Has there been confirmation that the FC-4046 cannot work correctly with 240P sources? And finally besides the FC-4046, FC-19, Extron CD400 & CD900, and RetroTink2x with HDMI2VGA adapter, are there any other Composite/S-Video2RGBs/VGA decoders that work well with game consoles, support 240P and 480i, and have zero or very very little lag?


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:31 pm 



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I have a Kramer FC-4044, which decodes composite and YC to both RGBS/RGsB and YPbPr, works well with 240p, and I've not noticed any lag (but I also haven't had the opportunity to test it with an NES and a Zapper going into the YPbPr input on my KV-27FV310).

My understanding is that it was produced a generation or two before the non-240p-compatible redesign introduced with the FC-4046.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:49 pm 


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The FC-14 is all analog. It doesn't do ADC -> process -> DAC.

So, there's really no competition here.
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:50 pm 



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I use the same Kramer FC-4044 as nmalinoski. I've only tried it with GameCube and N64 (neither have light gun games I don't think so I can't attest to that either). I use it with those two systems (both of which are S-Video) and convert them to RGBS so I don't have to touch a thing on my PVM/BVM's or Flatscreen (through upscaler) since those are setup to look for a RGBS signal - making it a flawless transition (through the presets on the Crosspoint) when I switch from one source to another (i.e. no having to press buttons or switches on the monitors or scalers to switch them into another input mode).

The FC-4044 does need to have a couple buttons pressed when it's turned on, so you're not going to be able to automate that functionality I don't think (which kinda stinks you can't set it to automatically turn on into the conversion settings you want - it's literally the only thing in my entire huge rack I have to press buttons on when I turn the master power strip on to power everything up).



Anyway, other options for either CV or YC to RGBS I have are: Sony YR-421 which does YC/S-Video to RGBS, and an Extron CD 400 which does CV or YC to RGBS. I honestly got these both a while ago and haven't even tested them yet. I know (according to multiple forum posts) that they should be good with 240p and don't convert it to 480i, and will doubly-confirm this once I test them out. I think the FC-4046 is a dead end as there's multiple posts about it converting 240p to 480i.

I would honestly setup an eBay alert for the FC-4044. My current one I had to replace the two largest caps to get it to work (was flashing in and out of B&W on occasion), but it's been flawless since then and I've used it a LOT. I also use it on my S-VHS player (watching regular VHS tapes) to convert YC to RGBS, and honestly I didn't believe my eyes the first time I saw that - VHS really can be quite stunning. I've probably seen 5 or 6 FC-4044's for sale (although none are on eBay now). CD 400 is super hard to find (mostly at/around $400 on eBay through delusional sellers), and you can get the Sony YR-421 for fairly cheap and I think there's one on eBay now.


P.S. Feel free to post on the Crosspoint touchscreen topic about how you're using Google with voice commands! I think people would love to know about that!


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:58 pm 


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I am looking for a good YC to RGB transcoder to recommend to a friend who wants to hook up his Commodore 64 to an OSSC, I'll be following this thread closely.

Looks like the Kramer 4044 works wonder here. Wonder if the other 2 mentionned (Sony and Extron) perform just as well?
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:14 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
I am looking for a good YC to RGB transcoder to recommend to a friend who wants to hook up his Commodore 64 to an OSSC, I'll be following this thread closely.

Looks like the Kramer 4044 works wonder here. Wonder if the other 2 mentionned (Sony and Extron) perform just as well?


You probably know this, but I'll post it for anybody that stumbles on this thread later:
https://www.commodoreserver.com/BlogEnt ... 4C65DB541E

(C64 svideo can be tricky.) You need that 300Ω resistor.

I can verify that the XRGB-1 and XRGB-2 work with properly attenuated svideo. The Extron CD 400 looks better (but, best of luck finding one).

The Retrotink 2x is another option worth considering.
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:12 am 


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https://www.instagram.com/p/B6UkaoRlaGL/

Won a FC-14 on eBay for $70 recently, arrived today and it works great + looks SO good :D

Also picked up a Linuxbot3000 (Jam!) SCART to YPbPr recently and it looks great, as does my RetroTink RGB2COMP. But it feels like the Kramer is like the old wise Grandpa of the bunch, heh. Tough to truly compare, the Kramer is very very different despite having the same general purpose. And I don't just mean the method of connecting! Lots of options going on...
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:26 pm 


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So the FC-14 is by FAR the best looking YPbPr transcoder I've seen (I own three others), but I discovered one fault in that it doesn't seem to take sync on luma natively. Obviously that can be worked around quite easily! It also is okay with the RGBS input source being switched to RGBHV on a consumer CRT TV, the picture simply cuts out for a split second.

How much are these things ACTUALLY worth? As I said, I got one for $70 and there's an active eBay listing for $300 that's been up for ages. Can't find any recent sold listings!
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:07 pm 



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kitty666cats wrote:
How much are these things ACTUALLY worth? As I said, I got one for $70 and there's an active eBay listing for $300 that's been up for ages. Can't find any recent sold listings!


I bought two from eBay in October for $100/each.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:48 am 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
How much are these things ACTUALLY worth? As I said, I got one for $70 and there's an active eBay listing for $300 that's been up for ages. Can't find any recent sold listings!


I bought two from eBay in October for $100/each.


That's good, much more reasonable than that one active listing for $300, haha. Have you tried sync on luma with it? I tried seeing if mayyyyybe it would work with RGsB selected as the input source, but no dice. Maybe I'll see if I can pull something off with a 4BNC or 5BNC & a T-adapter.

Luma issue is not really a problem, I've got some other transcoders, but I'll attempt something for fun. I've gotten a stable display with combining the sync cable and the green cable with a T-adapter before, but this was on some random distribution amp and I can't remember how I rigged things up...
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:58 am 



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kitty666cats wrote:
That's good, much more reasonable than that one active listing for $300, haha. Have you tried sync on luma with it? I tried seeing if mayyyyybe it would work with RGsB selected as the input source, but no dice. Maybe I'll see if I can pull something off with a 4BNC or 5BNC & a T-adapter.


I loop these in and out of an Extron Crosspoint 32x32 and that only takes clean sync so that's all I've tried.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:49 pm 


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https://www.ebay.com/itm/Keamer-Rgb-sca ... Sww7FemH7K

I kinda wanted to keep this to myself, but I want to be a good guy instead of badboi / I really don't have use for the thing, I've got enough frickin' stuff! There's a Kramer FC-4 on eBay right now, I haven't seen one for sale on there before. Only seen a few 14's.
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:02 pm 


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I have a FC-15. Very nice and based on the 14. For the 4 I always fear that it's based on some cheap OEM design instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:05 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
I have a FC-15. Very nice and based on the 14. For the 4 I always fear that it's based on some cheap OEM design instead.


Does the 15 take sync on luma / sync over composite? I'm assuming 'probably yes'. It's a shame they never made one with BNCs, DE-15 AND SCART! :P
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:27 pm 


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Quote:
Does the 15 take sync on luma / sync over composite?

of course it does. Do you know of any scart input that actually does NOT ?

Quote:
It's a shame they never made one with BNCs, DE-15 AND SCART! :P

too much of niche market I would say and don't forget that these were really expensive when they were available new. I still think an OSSC with a matching output adapter is the very best option for a transcoder these days.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:11 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Does the 15 take sync on luma / sync over composite?

of course it does. Do you know of any scart input that actually does NOT ?

Quote:
It's a shame they never made one with BNCs, DE-15 AND SCART! :P

too much of niche market I would say and don't forget that these were really expensive when they were available new. I still think an OSSC with a matching output adapter is the very best option for a transcoder these days.


Hehe, well I'm in the U-S-of-A, only used SCART on transcoders and other fun things, but good point! That would be quite ridiculous if it didn't! :P

That's the one letdown of the FC-14, but of course it's easy as pie to find a way to get RGBS into it! I still don't know for certain of any device that uses the 'RsGsBs' aka 'sync all over the place' the FC-14 has & most Extron stuff offers. I've searched around and it's mostly just vague 'probably some old projectors' etc, hehe

I've used my OSSC on passthrough with one of those great cheap HDMI to YPbPrs on a CRT before, for kicks, but usually just stick with the Kramer. ARGUABLY less of a cable mess!

EDIT: I do know of SCART ports that don't take RGB with sync on luma and sync on composite!

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Arguably the worst line of transcoders ever, these curvy black ones with the blue rectangle and white text lol. I'm known as the token transcoder/processor etc nerd in this group of CRT fans I chat with, but my knowledge is nothing compared to your classic site. Anyone else come to mind as far as 'worst ever'? :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:50 pm 



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kitty666cats wrote:
Arguably the worst line of transcoders ever, these curvy black ones with the blue rectangle and white text lol.

With that 720p/1080p switch, that's not a transcoder--it's a scaler! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:27 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
Arguably the worst line of transcoders ever, these curvy black ones with the blue rectangle and white text lol.

With that 720p/1080p switch, that's not a transcoder--it's a scaler! :P


Oof good call, that brand still sure seems horrendous though! Lots of odd cheapo brands out there... the DIY electronics shop near me sells these preposterously expensive transcoders, converters, scalers under the name 'Calrad', and a lot of them are the same cheap designs I've seen before elsewhere many times. I guess it's pretty unclear who the original brand is for some stuff out there. At least whoever made those non-scaling HDMI to YPbPrs with the slightly curved roof got it right! :)
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:51 am 


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Dang, someone beat me by 50 cents on the FC-4, haha. Any of you folks end up grabbing it? I was looking forward to opening it up and taking a peek inside!
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:22 pm 



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kitty666cats wrote:
Dang, someone beat me by 50 cents on the FC-4, haha. Any of you folks end up grabbing it? I was looking forward to opening it up and taking a peek inside!
It was me! Pm incoming!

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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:05 am 


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https://en.occasion-shop.com/13665452/k ... transcoder

Anyone ever owned one of these? Completely unaware that Kramer had made this one... if this site is legit, the price is right!

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Component to RGB SCART, also with monitor loopthru
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:50 am 


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Never seen one in the wild. It's a very old unit and was discontinued long before the FC-14 or 15.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:06 pm 



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kitty666cats wrote:
https://en.occasion-shop.com/13665452/kramer-fc-12e-component-to-rgbs-video-audio-transcoder

Anyone ever owned one of these? Completely unaware that Kramer had made this one... if this site is legit, the price is right!

Stock: 0


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:56 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
https://en.occasion-shop.com/13665452/kramer-fc-12e-component-to-rgbs-video-audio-transcoder

Anyone ever owned one of these? Completely unaware that Kramer had made this one... if this site is legit, the price is right!

Stock: 0


Haha, yes I noticed that later on. Google image search said they were in stock, I wonder if it was zero all along or if somebody grabbed one after I posted it, haha. Incredibly unlikely, it was probably zero all along. It was fun discovering another obscure unit of theirs, though!
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 7:04 pm 


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https://imgur.com/a/uSZLqIv

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User ldeveraux ended up winning that FC-4 and has just unveiled that it is, indeed, another CSY-2100! Even says so on the PCB, lol
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 7:10 pm 


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Kramer is REALLY hit or miss when it comes to relabeled OEM stuff. They might have had way more custom made quality stuff ten years ago, but when I've been working through various scalers and converters offerered by Kramer over the years, I found the same thing: lots of mediocre stuff from various chinese manufacturers.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 8:58 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Kramer is REALLY hit or miss when it comes to relabeled OEM stuff. They might have had way more custom made quality stuff ten years ago, but when I've been working through various scalers and converters offerered by Kramer over the years, I found the same thing: lots of mediocre stuff from various chinese manufacturers.


I found something, the Ocean Matrix OMX-RGB2YUV, which is either a FC-14 clone or potentially what the FC-14 is based on. If I had to guess, I would say it's a clone.

It's a real head-scratcher that the CSY-2100 became the template for so many transcoders... why did everyone have to choose one that foregoes having fucking audio when SCART carries it natively?! I suppose it could just be penny-pinching xD
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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 9:40 pm 


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Quote:
I found something, the Ocean Matrix OMX-RGB2YUV, which is either a FC-14 clone or potentially what the FC-14 is based on. If I had to guess, I would say it's a clone.

for their older (and really fantastic) transcoders I would argue that they've been designed for Kramer in the first place and the Ocean Matrix one had been licensed from Kramer.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 9:54 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
I found something, the Ocean Matrix OMX-RGB2YUV, which is either a FC-14 clone or potentially what the FC-14 is based on. If I had to guess, I would say it's a clone.

for their older (and really fantastic) transcoders I would argue that they've been designed for Kramer in the first place and the Ocean Matrix one had been licensed from Kramer.


Ye, I dug up an article and the Ocean Matrix one came out in 2006. I'd imagine the FC-14 is either from the late 90s or early 2000s. If you search Ocean Matrix on eBay, you'll see that they either sell lots of re-branded Kramer stuff, or at least used their shell design.

Any other Kramer units you own that you'd recommend? I really ought to snap some pics of my mountain of transcoders/converters/processors someday, there might be some stuff in there you'd be interested in :)

Image
https://www.svideo.com/svc2ypbpr.html

This one being, by far, the weirdest. Stupid epoxy brick...
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