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 Post subject: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:25 pm 


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It is my understanding when converting RGB from a Super Nintendo or Sega Genesis to Component with a Kramer FC 14, it is sometimes necessary to use a sync stripper. Would this also be true with a Kramer 4046? It is a more advanced unit than the FC 14 but the online manuals are not very clear on this matter. The shmups hardware forum is as always the best place to ask these questions. You guys know your stuff.

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:38 pm 


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In theory it's possible that the 4046 might handle composite video for sync, because it offers standard conversion for composite sources as well. The 4042 for example does not accept composite video (the 4042 is a bi-directional RGB/component transcoder). I guess there's no way of knowing without giving it a try. If you can use a soldering iron, it would be easy to just install a LM1881 inside the 4046 behind the BNC sync input, so you don't have to worry about external stripping.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:07 pm 


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FC-14 doesn't accept composite video for sync. In some cases it kinda works, but needs a sync separator (e.g. Playstation 1 RGBCv output).

On the Genesis systems, the CSYNC output through a 100uF cap doesn't work correctly with the FC-14 (adds noise, and picture won't be stable). To fix this on a Genesis 1, you'd need to remove the stock sync output to the 8 pin din connector and replace it with CXA1145 pin 11 connected through a 75 ohm resistor and a 220uF to 470uF cap. On the Genesis 2 you'd need to use a LM1881 or equivalent with the CSYNC pin.

As a general rule you don't want to force the use of a LM1881 unless you're going to use RGBCv exclusively. Many consoles won't require a LM1881, or in some cases should be modified for proper CSYNC output.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:58 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2013
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Triaxis wrote:
It is my understanding when converting RGB from a Super Nintendo or Sega Genesis to Component with a Kramer FC 14, it is sometimes necessary to use a sync stripper. Would this also be true with a Kramer 4046? It is a more advanced unit than the FC 14 but the online manuals are not very clear on this matter. The shmups hardware forum is as always the best place to ask these questions. You guys know your stuff.

Thanks in advance.

Out of curiosity, are you the other watcher on the cheaper eBay listing? The 4046 manual specifically mentions composite sync for the output but not the input.
'25 SYNC INPUT BNC Connector Connects to the SYNC source in the RGBS mode'
'31 Hs/Cs OUTPUT BNC Connector Connects to the horizontal or composite sync output'
http://www.kramerelectronics.com/downlo ... c-4046.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:45 pm 


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Thanks for all the input. I am not watching one on ebay, because I already purchased a 4046 last night. (Someone should take the laptop away from me when i have had a few drinks.) I have a pure sync cable for my genesis 2, but my snes cable is not pure sync. I purchased them both from retro consol accessories. She dose exceptional work by the way. My sony bvm is on the fritz, and I can't have it looked at for a few months, so I am pressing my old 27" Philips crt with componit in back in to service. It's not to bad but I can't look at composit video after seeing rgb with the sony bvm :)


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:47 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2013
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Triaxis wrote:
Thanks for all the input. I am not watching one on ebay, because I already purchased a 4046 last night. (Someone should take the laptop away from me when i have had a few drinks.) I have a pure sync cable for my genesis 2, but my snes cable is not pure sync. I purchased them both from retro consol accessories. She dose exceptional work by the way. My sony bvm is on the fritz, and I can't have it looked at for a few months, so I am pressing my old 27" Philips crt with componit in back in to service. It's not to bad but I can't look at composite video after seeing rgb with the sony bvm :)

Composite's pretty awful once you've seen better :P. Please post what kind of sync the 4046 will accept after you've had a chance to test it :).


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:43 am 


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I will keep you posted.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:25 pm 


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Should be interesting! There's also this kit, which might be better than either Kramer unit?

http://www.tg16pcemods.com/rgb-to-compo ... erter.html

I'm more interested in how well the 4046 performs with component (YUV) to RGBS/HV than the other way around. Could it do a better job with the Wii, than to connect directly to the d-terminal input on a xrgb-mini?


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:23 pm 


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The FC 4046 arrived yesterday so i hooked it up and here are the results. The good news is this unit dose a fantastic job of converting RGBS and RGsB to Component /YUV video. The build quality on theses Kramer units is very impressive. Also, i detect no input lag when used with my CRT television. The bad news is that this particular unit may be faulty because i get a slow constant vertical screen roll. I have tried 2 different televisions and different cables with the same results. I have set the dip switch's correctly and read through the manual a few times. I will try again today to configure this Kramer unit because the picture quality although it is rolling, is very good. Better than compost or S-Video. If i can just get it to hold still!

PS: When i activate the color bar test pattern, the screen rolling stops.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:01 pm 


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Triaxis wrote:
PS: When i activate the color bar test pattern, the screen rolling stops.


Good luck getting VSync working. I didn't see any indication of a color bar test pattern built into the 4046. Do you mean some other source?


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:27 pm 


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The unit can generate color bar test pattern.

1 PEDESTAL
1ON for pedestal; OFF for no pedestal (7.5 IRE offset selection for NTSC)
2 STANDARD 1
3 STANDARD 2
4 STANDARD 3
See Table 5 (for selecting the INPUT video standard)
5 AUT O2 ON for multi-standard; OFF for user-selected (fixed) standard
6 H SYNC ON for Horizontal sync on Hs/Cs BNC; OFF for composite sync output
7 BAR ON for machine to operate as a 75% color bar generator
8 ON for automatic gain control; OFF for fixed gain



From the manual.

I have discovered some trim adjustments underneath the units so i am going back in...


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:04 pm 


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So after trying several different configurations with no success I decided to call Kramer Electronics technical support. They picked up the phone right away and were very helpful. They think the power transformer in the unit may be the problem, and ask what the serial number of the FC 4046 is. Much to my surprise they inform me that it is still under warranty. I just pay to ship it to them and they will fix it and ship it back for free. Also, if i send it lets say 2 day shipping, they will pay to ship it back 2 day shipping. This is why it is good to buy high end equipment, Kramer for example has a 7 year warranty. The unit i have is 6 1/2 years old it turns out.


Despite the fact that my unit was malfunctioning, I can tell you that the Kramer 4046 is excellent at converting RGBS to YUV, or RGBS to S-Video/Y/C. When it is repaired, i will upload some screen shots of the 4046 in action. If you want RGBS picture quality but have a YUV/ Component TV, this may be the perfect all in one solution for you.

PS: 2 day shipping would have cost $95, so it will will be a few weeks before I upload any photos :)


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:10 pm 


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Triaxis wrote:
Despite the fact that my unit was malfunctioning, I can tell you that the Kramer 4046 is excellent at converting RGBS to YUV, or RGBS to S-Video/Y/C. When it is repaired, i will upload some screen shots of the 4046 in action. If you want RGBS picture quality but have a YUV/ Component TV, this may be the perfect all in one solution for you.

PS: 2 day shipping would have cost $95, so it will will be a few weeks before I upload any photos :)


Well crap... I bought the other one. Hope it doesn't have the same issue! :x


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:18 pm 


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despite the malfunction on the unit, did you try what you initially asked ? Is clean sync required on the 4046 ?

I have the FC-15 here for RGBs to YUV and the FC-14 for VGA to component. Before that I had the 4042 (VGA to YUV and YUV to VGA in the same machine), but it was too bulky for my setup. They all have absolute reference quality. FC-15 accepts composite video for sync. FC-14 and the 4042 require clean signals.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:26 pm 


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Clean sync is not required. It works with both clean and composite sync. The 4046, as it is converting RGBS or RGsB to YUV, converts to s-video Y/C and composite all at the same time! Very impressive machine. I will do more testing when the unit is repaired.

PS: I enjoyed this article you were featured in Fudoh.

http://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/45671 ... tro-games/


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:51 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 431
Triaxis wrote:
Clean sync is not required. It works with both clean and composite sync. The 4046, as it is converting RGBS or RGsB to YUV, converts to s-video Y/C and composite all at the same time! Very impressive machine. I will do more testing when the unit is repaired.

PS: I enjoyed this article you were featured in Fudoh.

http://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/45671 ... tro-games/

Thanks for the update :). If USPS was an option, a large flat rate box would have been your best bet on speed/price.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:36 pm 


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Hope yours works properly RGB32E. If not, Kramer's warranty and costumer support is excellent. Keep us posted.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:29 am 



Joined: 04 Nov 2013
Posts: 7
Hey Guys,

I'm still a novice at this stuff. So, I apologize in advance, if my questions sound stupid. From the looks of this thread, I have a similar requirement.

Long story short, I have a funky MUSE laserdisc setup. I'm trying to connect my scaler (RGBHV) 5xBNC to my AV processor (YPbPr) 3xRCA. I'd really like to run this at 1080p 60Hz.

As far as I can tell, the FC 14 looks to support this. However, I was wondering if higher end models 4042 or 4046 would also work? If so, how should I hookup H+V to sync?

Thanks!

-Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:42 pm 


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What scaler do you use for MUSE deinterlacing that doesn't support component out on it's own ??


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:17 pm 



Joined: 04 Nov 2013
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Here's my signal chain:

[Pioneer HLD-XO] --> (RCA MUSE) --> [Panasonic TU-AHD100N] --> (5xBNC RGBHV) --> [DVDO iScan VP50] --> (5xBNC RGBHV) --> [???] --> (3xRCA YPbPr) --> [Onkyo PR-SC885]

You're correct, my MUSE decoder has both RGBHV and YPbPr outputs. However, my scaler supports only RGBHV inputs and outputs. And unfortunately, I'm not aware of any modern AV processors that support RGBHV. My only option is YPbPr as an input for my AV processor. I'd rather bypass the AV processor altogether. But, I can't get my TV to work right with RGBHV.

Before you recommend removing the scaler from the signal chain, I use this for correcting the image. It's looking like the Kramer FC-14 is my best option, as I'd rather not join the H+V signals. I'm just not sure how well it supports 1080p.

If I can find an FC-14 for a good price, then I'll go that route. If not, then I'll just bypass the VP50.

Thank you for your help,

-Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:40 pm 


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Quote:
However, my scaler supports only RGBHV inputs and outputs

no, you can configure your VP50's BNC output to YPbPr just as well. Once done you only use three of the five BNC connectors. Easy as that.

Quote:
But, I can't get my TV to work right with RGBHV.

and what about HDMI ?

One problem you might run into: while the VP50 supports 1080p60 output through component, receivers often cap their componen inputs at 720p60/1080i60, so you might not be able to run 1080p60 through your receiver.


Last edited by Fudoh on Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:53 pm 



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I didn't know I could do that. I will give that a try :)

Thank you very much for your help!

-Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:20 am 



Joined: 04 Nov 2013
Posts: 7
Fudoh wrote:
and what about HDMI ?


This is currently how I have my scaler connected to the AV processor. However, the VP50 has only two audio inputs. I'd like to have surround sound. My MUSE decoder has built-in AC3-RF :)

To the best of my knowledge, I cannot combine HDMI signals for video with component audio on my Onkyo PR-SC885. The only way I know how to do this is treat everything as component...

I'm going to have a look at the Onkyo PR-SC885 manual and doublecheck my assumptions. I'm curious about the potential bandwidth limitations my AV receiver may have for component video.

-Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:14 pm 


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Triaxis wrote:
Hope yours works properly RGB32E. If not, Kramer's warranty and costumer support is excellent. Keep us posted.


I received mine yesterday and tested it on my PVM-2030 (RGBS output). I had the same results - rolling picture with 240p sources. I tried with 480i output from a GameCube via S-Video and got a stable picture on my PVM-2030. The "stable" test bar pattern might be moving vertically, but somehow the break between frames doesn't appear on monitors?

I believe that the Kramer FC-4046 doesn't support 240p input, just 480i, and maybe 480p. I popped mine open and found that there are several jumpers, but I don't know if changing any of them will make 240p work. A couple of the SMD aluminum electrolytic caps looked ok - none had burst open.

For 240p RGB to component conversion it would be best to stick with the FC-14, as that doesn't seem to have any restrictions other than needing video-less sync. The FC-14 handles signals from 240p to 1080p!

I'll have to hook this up to my XRGB-mini for further testing. If I could just find my RCA to BNC adapters I could test more component source! :x :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:31 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
no, you can configure your VP50's BNC output to YPbPr just as well. Once done you only use three of the five BNC connectors. Easy as that.


I got my BNC to RCA adapters today. This suggestion worked perfectly! Thank you for this simple idea :)

VG, Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:23 pm 


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Would you mind taking a snapshot of some MUSE action ? Haven't seen any in over a decade. Such a lovely high-end format back in the days.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:07 am 



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Fudoh wrote:
Would you mind taking a snapshot of some MUSE action ? Haven't seen any in over a decade. Such a lovely high-end format back in the days.


Yes, of course. Here's some from Lawrence of Arabia, no VP filtering and a crappy camera:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Hard to believe this technology predates DVD!

I have other movies, if you find this sort of thing interesting. One of these days, I'll post some video clips on YouTube.

-Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:42 am 


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Thanks! Very nice. I had about a dozen of MUSE discs, but sold the whole collection along with the decoder. Very expensive hobby back in the days and unfortunately nothing but a curiosity these days.


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:21 pm 



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Yeah, MUSE is a funny hobby. It's a bit like owning a classic car. Even though new cars are faster, more reliable and cheaper. But then again, that's why we're all here on this thread ;)

-Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Kramer FC 14 Vs Kramer 4046 (Kramer Vs Kramer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:35 pm 


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Thanks rgb32e. My results are the same. 240p sources roll when connected to the 4046. Maybe those jumpers inside the unit can be configured to work with 240p but I can't find any documents online as to what the jumpers actualy do.


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