fight stick vs control pad

[Sarethums]

Im sure this has been discussed here before but i couldnt find anything using the forums search function so sorry if this has been done to death already.

My background:
ive enjoyed playing shmups my entire life and as of the last year or so ive become pretty serious about collecting them, i also held the 6th position on geometry wars galaxies on the wii for many years.

Ive never had the chance to play a shmup arcade machine so i dont have anything to compare my recently purchased hori ex 2 fighting stick with.

My question:
What are the advantages of using a fight stick over a control pad? I'm using the hori ex2 fighting stick and comparing it against an official ms control pad vs afterglow vs apower mini controller.
Ive googled this but cant find anything relating fight sticks and shmups,

If someone could direct me to a fighting stick for shmups FAQ that would be great.

Regards

sarethums

[Ghegs]

What's important is that you have a controller that you're personally comfortable with. Whether it's a joystick, a pad or even a keyboard is irrelevant.

[Sarethums]

I understand that. Especially that the fight stick feels very alien to me but is it worth getting used to it to achieve a better play?

Ive played Gran turismo for over 10 years and have tried to use a wheel but had very little success, until i competed for the gt academy where there was no chance of using a pad as a wheel will always be faster than a pad on gt so i persevered and this time had success now im more comfortable with a wheel than a pad, and waaaaaay faster.


Im really after tips and an FAQ here.

[shmuppyLove]

There are definitely objective reasons why a microswitched joystick is better, but that doesn't stop some people from using other input methods and getting very good with them.

For what it's worth, the Hori EX2 is not a very good joystick. Real arcade parts are far superior.

Of course there's a learning-curve as well, so it will take some time before you're proficient.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Yeah it takes time to adapt if you're not used to it but don't feel pressured that you have to use a stick. A shoddy stick is going to be just as bad for you as trying to play on the d-pad of a 360 controller.

You might be able to find an adapter for better gamepads (like the Saturn's), there are certainly plenty of options for the PC. Otherwise you might get lucky and find a decent stock stick but chances are you'll have to get modding to end up with a good one. You decide what's worth your while really. If you have a Dreamcast, the stock Sega-badged arcade stick is actually rather good so might be a low-cost way to see if you can like them.

[Sarethums]

im actually loving the stick, it makes it more fun, i'll see if a street fighter fightpad for 360 comes in to my shop and i'll try that out. it looks similar to the saturn pad.

[gray117]

As you suggest I find playing on a stick to be the most satisfying experience and would certainly recommend getting into it...

Objectively, for digital input, something like a keyboard or hit boxes (where people replace fight stick sticks with buttons) might be the most effective inputs - with small movements of minimal possible variance.

... But, of course, most importantly; go with what you like

On the stick front you'll see people pretty much recommend a sanwa or seimitsu variant, same with buttons, the general idea -

seimitsu: stick requires less 'throw' (often favoured by shmup players for twitchy movements), buttons are a touch less sensitive (often favoured by shmup players since less liklihood of a mistake bomb when resting fingers)

sanwa: often favoured by fighters, slightly longer throw stick could be argued to allow a touch more interpretation and/or suitable to flowing movements, buttons pretty sensitive for quick tapping + timing. Probably the more common type found in arcades.

Out-of-the-box most good sticks are fighting sticks with sanwa parts. But with hori sticks in particular you'll notice 'se' [seimitsu] and 'sa' [sanwa] variants on models.

If you really enjoy the arcade/fight stick style I'd likely suggest a deal on a hori hrap sa/se, or the street fighter tournament edition stick (these are sanwa parts), would be worth getting for 360/pc play (unless you're into modding). This costs a bit more than most other controllers but is well worth it over an ex stick if you're going to be playing for more than a couple of hours.

BUT if you're more likely to enjoy playing on a decent gamepad then yep save a few $ and pick up a fightpad and enjoy without concern - many amazing players play with these.

The competition type players you see typically take to sticks due to their commonality, arcade practices and (in some cases) competition rules... and besides if you ever get to that stage you'll probably be buying, trying and trading just about every controller going

My personal preference; sanwa sticks and buttons.

.. wow I really had some spare time on my hands :/

[Sarethums]

Thank you very much this is the exact post that i was after. Ive just bought a hori fighting stick 3 for ps3. Ill take your advice and get the hang of the cheaper hori ones before moving up.

[brokenhalo]

Thank you very much this is the exact post that i was after. Ive just bought a hori fighting stick 3 for ps3. Ill take your advice and get the hang of the cheaper hori ones before moving up.

The cheaper sticks are just going to hinder you, imo. The 2 sticks you have both use cheap hori knock off parts. Get a good joystick like the madcatz tournament edition (which comes stock with sanwa joystick and buttons)and give it a few weeks of play. If it isn't for you you can recoup most of your cost by selling it on.

The learning curve for using a joystick for shmups is almost nil. Transitioning to stick for fighting games takes a little longer.

[Sarethums]

When a madcatz stick comes in to my work again il borrow it from there, im still enjoying using these cheap ones for now more than a pad. I dont mind spending some extra cash as i was away to buy a wheel for gt for £200 but the seller kept messing me around. So basically ive got £200 spare peripheral money.

[rCadeGaming]

The cheaper sticks are just going to hinder you, imo.

Agreed. I'd switch ASAP.

Also, while it's good for fighting games I wouldn't recommend the long throw of a stock Sanwa JLF for shmups. Check out the second link in my signature for a mod that reduces its throw for a better all-around stick and a much better shmup stick. If you don't want to try the mod, I think you'd be better off with a Seimitsu than a stock JLF.

[Sarethums]

Ok. So would this mod work on my ex 2? And would you recommend me returning the hori fs3 ps3 to my shop? I take it that this mod will produce better results for less. I hope i can get those pieces in the uk. or would upgrading to the hori rap be a good idea? is there perhaps an easier mod where i can just simply swap out the hori stick for a better one and if so what stick should i use to replace the hori stock one with?


much appreciation.

[rCadeGaming]

Not really worth the time trying to mod Hori's knockoff stick, if it would even work. I don't know if it would be cost effective to upgrade the stick and buttons yourself. I believe the Hori RAP has real Sanwa parts right out of the box. If so, that's a good bet.

[Sarethums]

So i went and bougt the razer atrox for the 360, its is pretty damn fine. Rrp £180, i got it for £60 after discount and trade ins. It means im left with the fighting stick 3 for ps3 though.

[rCadeGaming]

Looks decent. It has the unnecessary shaft cover on the stick like a Madcatz TE. I'd recommend trying it without that. You can get a normal-sized dust cover for a few dollars.

Is the 360 PCB in that thing common ground? If so, it would be easy to dual mod with an MC Cthulhu. That will get you compatibility with PS3 and almost every other console. No need to have different sticks for different consoles.

[shmuppyLove]

No need to bother with dual-modding, just get a PS360+

[rCadeGaming]

A PS360+ is $60 and supports 7 consoles.

An MC Cthulhu is $35 and supports 12 consoles (13 including 360, which he'd have just by retaining the current PCB in a dual mod).

[jdubs]

The PS360+ is incredibly easy to hook up...that said, I think the MC Cthulhu is the better choice for compatibility reasons (as you mention).

I'd recommend getting an Imp, too, though (if you get the Cthulhu), so you can have switchless 360 selection.

-Jim

[rCadeGaming]

Yeah. I'm more concerned with the final product than the ease of the one-time installation. I use my sticks with my NES, SNES, and PC Engine (lots of good shmups there!) all the time, so the compatibility is a must for me.

The imp doesn't work with the MC Cthulhu, only the regular PS3/PC Cthulhu.

Switchless detection can be achieved by using a different USB cable for 360 than for PS3/PC. If you use a d-sub, DIN, or mini-DIN output for your console cables, you can use separate pins for the D+ and D- lines of the MC Cthulhu and the 360 PCB. The cable for PS3/PC terminates to its D+ and D- pins which are routed to the MC Cthulhu, and the cable for 360 terminates to different D+ and D- pins which are routed to the 360 PCB.

If you're short on pins in a DIN or something, you could also used a single pin connected to some normally open and normally closed solid state relays. Shorting that pin to ground in the cable enables one set of D+/D- lines, leaving it disconnected enables another. Instead of having two different USB cables terminated differently, you could also put a little switch on the cable. There are plenty of options.

[jdubs]

The imp doesn't work with the MC Cthulhu, only the regular PS3/PC Cthulhu.

I had a switchless setup with a MC Cthulhu and Imp (v2, I think...maybe that's the difference) on my Blast City panel and it worked perfectly.

That's how a lot of the shoryuken guys do it.

-Jim

[Sarethums]

if this beast worked on other systems that would be ultimate, im looking into getting the MC Cthulhu. If i can get it in the uk and how difficult is installation, dont want to mess up the new stick.

[rCadeGaming]

I had a switchless setup with a MC Cthulhu and Imp (v2, I think...maybe that's the difference) on my Blast City panel and it worked perfectly.

You're right, it works now. I don't think I had looked at since v1. That's yet another option. I think I'll be using the Imp v2 in the future.

http://www.godlikecontrols.com/

http://www.godlikecontrols.com/imp2.pdf

[Astraea FGA Mk. I]

My first stick was a Hori EX2. Like previously said it is not nearly as good as a stick with Seimitsu or Sanwa parts like a RAP, but it was enough to learn to use a stick and decide to switch. I have a EX-SE, VX-SA, Neo Geo Stick 2s, a Dreamcast Stick modded with Seimitsu parts, I get obsessed with things on a regular basis.