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 Post subject: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (USA)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:42 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 196
I'm looking for a monitor capable of running Wave Runner (Sega Model 2) and Virtua Fighter 3 (Sega Model 3) and was wondering what the most common / easiest to find / cheapest would be?


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:49 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
If you're talking about LCD, then probably either Dell U2211H or NEC EA231WMI.

I've tested the Dell and the NEC with Gradius 4 (24KHz) - Dell works fine, NEC is kind of picky - need to plug and unplug a few times.
I've tested the Dell with Zero Gunner (24 KHz) - it drops out a lot so I think a sync cleaner is needed.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:52 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 196
wow, didn't even know there were such LCDs. it's not ideal but I'm just looking for something I can test stuff with so that's actually probably perfect, I'd love to hear other suggestions too, but thanks a bunch alamone.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:10 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
Of course a tri-sync CRT would be ideal, but I think it's going to be tough to find.
The multi-format PVMs do not sync to 24 KHz, so you will have to find a vintage CRT
that syncs down to 24KHz, or just get an arcade CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:30 pm 


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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Germany
What alamone said - or just do a conversion. 384p upscaled to whatever you like using a XPC-4 (best choice if you're running a LCD). Or 384p to 480i when you want to use a CRT like a PVM or BVM. 24 to 15khz is using an Extron VSC scan converter.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:28 am 



Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 196
fudoh,

so in the case of the xpc-4 -- http://www.solarisjapan.com/xpc-4-video ... rrencyId=1

I would need to tap the RGBHV from the arcade board and adapt it to a DVI plug to get it into the XPC-4?

or in the case of the Extron VSC (700 in this case) -- http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extron-VSC-700- ... 27d9100e7f

I would need to tap the RGBHV from the arcade board and adapt it to 5 BNC connectors?

is that right?


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:33 am 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
If you're going to spend $$$ on a scaler anyway, I'd just use a XRGB-mini as it also does 24KHz.
I don't see a reason to get a XPC-4 over a XRGB-mini, which would seem to be a more flexible solution.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:17 am 


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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Germany
Quote:
If you're going to spend $$$ on a scaler anyway, I'd just use a XRGB-mini as it also does 24KHz.

whoa, whoa, whoa - - that's news to me. Can you elaborate ?


Quote:
I would need to tap the RGBHV from the arcade board and adapt it to a DVI plug to get it into the XPC-4?

yes, DVI to VGA adapter plug is included with the XPC-4, so you just need a VGA cable matching the board's connectors.

Quote:
I would need to tap the RGBHV from the arcade board and adapt it to 5 BNC connectors?

yes, but don't overpay. I've seen VSC 500 units for as low as $60.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:30 am 



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 1803
Location: Denmark
The NEC XM29 that I once owned was pretty flexible what signals were concerned. It was pretty much a giant PC monitor capable of accepting sub 31khz signals as well. 10 to 1 that it can do 24khz as well, alas I have no proof.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:36 am 


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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Germany
The XM29 can do 24khz.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:21 pm 



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 83
Some of the HannG LCD monitors do a good job on 24khz games. I've used them in game like cruisin USA, world, cal speed, exotica, and gun blade, and others.....

But which LCD monitors will sync down to the low res 15khz signals??? That's the bigger question IMO.
24 kHz isn't that hard to find looking at specs of various monitors. I can't remember the model number, but there was an Asus LCD that shows 24khz too. Oh, and some of the viewsonic monitors also did a great job of 24khz too. But finding one(s) that will display the low res signals.....I'd like to know which ones do that!


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:32 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
I thought that 24KHz support was well known for the XRGB-mini.
Just route to the appropriate pins on the front RGB input.
I tested with Gradius 4 (24 KHz) using an Extron box to combine the sync and it works fine.

24 KHz support is not really a given on most monitors.
Usually you will get an out-of-range error or blank screen.
Out of all the various monitors I have, only two work with 24 KHz.

I agree that 15 KHz support is even rarer, but that can be handled
mostly by using an upscaler. Most upscalers do not support 24 KHz,
except for the XPC-4 and XRGB-mini as mentioned.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:34 pm 


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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Germany
Quote:
I thought that 24KHz support was well known for the XRGB-mini.

not at all. There were a number of test with 31khz sources, but non on the internet for 24khz ones.

Quote:
I tested with Gradius 4 (24 KHz) using an Extron box to combine the sync and it works fine.

And you're sure the board was set to 24khz and not to 15khz ? If yes, impressive. Easy question then: is the processing as good as in 15khz mode or as bad as in 31khz mode ?


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:43 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
Of course the board was set to 24KHz, the 15KHz mode is pointless because it's so blurry. I never touch the resolution jumper.
I did not really evaluate the image quality that thoroughly since I have monitors that accept 24KHz rates natively already.
However it certainly works in a pinch if your monitor does not support 24KHz.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:21 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 196
This is fantastic news, I need to get an X-RGB Mini eventually anyway. I'd still like to get a monitor that handles it natively at some point but the info in this thread has been hugely helpful.

EDIT:

stats from System 16:

Virtua Fighter 3:

Video resolution : 24KHz 496(H)x384(V) one or two plane 24khz, It uses the VGA pinout however. And, the voltage levels of the video output is at VGA levels (.7vdc Peak to Peak)
Scroll Window : two plane (24KHz/two plane mode), 16 colours/32,768 1024 palette x 2 bank, 256/32,768 64 palette x 2 bank
Board composition : CPU + VIDEO + ROM boards

Wave Runner:

Video resolution : 496x384 24Hz Horizontal sync, wave, non interlace.
Map size : 1024x2048x2 (sheets)

Do you guys think these resolutions would have issues on the X-RGB Mini?


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:53 pm 


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Location: Germany
Both output standard 384p/24khz. If the Mini does really handle this, you're find with both boards.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:54 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
I'll give the Mini a try with my Zero Gunner (Sega Model 2?) board as well.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:05 pm 


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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Germany
thanks ! Pay attention to vertical edges. They're razorsharp with 15khz sources, but show blurring or ghosting with 31khz sources (depends on the scaler setting which one you'll see).


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:00 am 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
Sorry for blurry cellphone pix. But the images look sharp in person.

Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:38 am 


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Location: Germany
thanks for confirming!


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:07 am 


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Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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Fudoh wrote:
The XM29 can do 24khz.


Not to thread derail, but I have had some trouble getting an Epson PC Club (NEC PC98 clone) which runs at 24khz to sync on my XM29 properly. VSYNC is fine, but horizontal has doubled images indicating it can't sync properly. I wonder if it's something specific with the PC Club, or with PC98s in general as I've heard from other XM29 owners that 24khz works fine as well..


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:46 am 


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As usual and with all multi-sync CRTs I would really recommend to run the signal through a RGB interface. If required you can convert the signal signal (HV to C or SoG or the other way around). Cheap ($25+) and usually worth a try.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 am 


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I went back and piped the Epson PC Club through several of my extron interfaces to no avail, however when I piped it through my X-Select D4 it immediately synced correctly. It now also works on my Mitsubishi Megaview Pro 42. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, Fudoh.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:30 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 196
is it working through the XSelect D4 because it is cleaning sync, or is the XSelect D4 scaling the resolution/refresh rate.

Also, are eBay and craigslist the best places to find an NEC XM29 in California? or are there other places to look. I'm currently living in San Diego


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:10 pm 


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I wonder if it would be possible to hack the PS2 version of gradius 4 to output 24hz. The Graphics synthesizer chip is pretty flexible, and the Gradius 3&4 collection seem to be straightforward emulations instead of enhanced ports. So I feel like the original 384-line data is there.

From there, you can put GS Mode Selector in 1024x768 (384p line doubled) mode and it would look pretty stellar


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:58 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
It's not a straightforward emulation, some behaviors are different between the port and the PCB.
It's a pretty good port but it's not 100% accurate.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:03 am 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
By the way, the Dell U2211H I mentioned in this thread... it's also capable of syncing to 15KHz. Very versatile monitor.
I've tried it with a bunch of PCBs (R-Type, Viper Phase 1, Strikers 1999, SDOJ, Tatusjin-Oh) and they all display fine
(although R-type is slightly cut off vertically, but you can adjust it to see your beam meter).


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:10 am 


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Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 158
Location: Tampa FL
Arasoi wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
The XM29 can do 24khz.


Not to thread derail, but I have had some trouble getting an Epson PC Club (NEC PC98 clone) which runs at 24khz to sync on my XM29 properly. VSYNC is fine, but horizontal has doubled images indicating it can't sync properly. I wonder if it's something specific with the PC Club, or with PC98s in general as I've heard from other XM29 owners that 24khz works fine as well..

No 24k sync on my x68000 on my XM29 either
_________________
Image


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:45 am 


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Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 118
Location: Manchester, UK
To my surprise, I've just found that the Extron RGB-HDMI 300a does a very nice job with 24khz. Virtua Fighter looks great upscaled to 1080p. It only cost me £30 from eBay too. Bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: What are the easiest to find mid-res (24kHz) monitor (US
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:30 am 



Joined: 30 Oct 2018
Posts: 106
Fudoh wrote:
As usual and with all multi-sync CRTs I would really recommend to run the signal through a RGB interface. If required you can convert the signal signal (HV to C or SoG or the other way around). Cheap ($25+) and usually worth a try.


Link to one you recommended?


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