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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:30 pm 


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Joined: 20 Jul 2017
Posts: 210
mjs0686 wrote:
OK, got it, thanks!


No worries, sorry for the confusion. Obviously as this is a mod it all depends on how it was installed. If you install it yourself then you can wire it up for the cable you want to use, if someone installed it for you then you will need to ask them how it is wired up.

I am not sure if pin 3 on the famicom's multi out is used for anything, but if not you could wire TTL Sync to pin 3 and use an NTSC SNES csync cable, or you could wire CS75 to pin 9 and use a GC cable or an NTSC SNES cvideo-as-sync cable (but still actually be getting csync).


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:50 pm 



Joined: 09 Apr 2017
Posts: 48
Kez wrote:
mjs0686 wrote:
OK, got it, thanks!


No worries, sorry for the confusion. Obviously as this is a mod it all depends on how it was installed. If you install it yourself then you can wire it up for the cable you want to use, if someone installed it for you then you will need to ask them how it is wired up.

I am not sure if pin 3 on the famicom's multi out is used for anything, but if not you could wire TTL Sync to pin 3 and use an NTSC SNES csync cable, or you could wire CS75 to pin 9 and use a GC cable or an NTSC SNES cvideo-as-sync cable (but still actually be getting csync).


I bought a pre-modded NESRGB NES top-loader (ntsc), so I'm not honestly sure how the NESRGB pinout was wired to the multi-out, I'll have to open it up and see if I can find out.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:53 pm 


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Joined: 05 Jun 2016
Posts: 105
Location: Ireland
So to summarise:

The RGB lines on the cable should have no components on them, as they're on the NESRGB board?...If they are in the cable (E.g. NTSC SNES cable), which components do you remove from the NESRGB board?

And the NESRGB board can output both 75ohm and TTL level csync?

I'm surprised there isn't solid definite info about all this, references to other system cables is a little bit confusing.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:07 pm 


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eric90000 wrote:
So to summarise:

The RGB lines on the cable should have no components on them, as they're on the NESRGB board?...If they are in the cable (E.g. NTSC SNES cable), which components do you remove from the NESRGB board?

And the NESRGB board can output both 75ohm and TTL level csync?

I'm surprised there isn't solid definite info about all this, references to other system cables is a little bit confusing.


It's not so much that there isn't solid definite info, but that because it is a mod installed by different people and with different configurable options - certain things can vary between units.

It is only that the cable should have no resistors on the RGB lines, caps are fine. If a cable has resistors in, it would probably be better to remove them from the cable rather than the board although like I said the NTSC SNES cable actually doesn't have resistors in, that was my mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:17 pm 


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Kez wrote:
It's not so much that there isn't solid definite info, but that because it is a mod installed by different people and with different configurable options - certain things can vary between units.

It is only that the cable should have no resistors on the RGB lines, caps are fine. If a cable has resistors in, it would probably be better to remove them from the cable rather than the board although like I said the NTSC SNES cable actually doesn't have resistors in, that was my mistake.


yeah I get you, with various people installing the mod it varies from console to console. It'd be helpful though if there was some info sheet about the different possible output signal paths etc, and what components should be present for the cable side of things.

When 2 capacitors are in in series, the capacitance is less though right. So having capacitors both on the NESRGB board and the cable would make it off-spec.

is the ideal scenario a SNES cable with no components on it at all?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:29 pm 


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eric90000 wrote:
When 2 capacitors are in in series, the capacitance is less though right. So having capacitors both on the NESRGB board and the cable would make it off-spec.

is the ideal scenario a SNES cable with no components on it at all?


Yes you are correct, that is the ideal scenario, but Tim has previously said that it's basically fine to leave the caps in.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:39 pm 


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Posts: 1895
Location: DFW area, Texas
eric90000 wrote:

And the NESRGB board can output both 75ohm and TTL level csync?



Not according to what Tim said. Both the older and newer revisions have resistors attenuating the csync signal. So no, the NESRGB board does not output TTL csync in any normal circumstance. In his diagram he posted, revisions 12 and 13 have a 680 Ohm resistor on the csync line, while the current revision 14 has a 470 Ohm resistor plus a jumper to an additional 91 Ohm resistor. So even if you leave the jumper open, you've still got a 470 Ohm resistor on the csync line.

What all this means is you're in no danger of TTL csync levels coming out of the NESRGB board in any scenario.
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:15 am 



Joined: 09 Apr 2017
Posts: 48
FBX wrote:
eric90000 wrote:

And the NESRGB board can output both 75ohm and TTL level csync?



Not according to what Tim said. Both the older and newer revisions have resistors attenuating the csync signal. So no, the NESRGB board does not output TTL csync in any normal circumstance. In his diagram he posted, revisions 12 and 13 have a 680 Ohm resistor on the csync line, while the current revision 14 has a 470 Ohm resistor plus a jumper to an additional 91 Ohm resistor. So even if you leave the jumper open, you've still got a 470 Ohm resistor on the csync line.

What all this means is you're in no danger of TTL csync levels coming out of the NESRGB board in any scenario.


I'm not doubting you because I'm quite the newbie to this but in this diagram it says it outputs TTL sync when the jumper is open.

https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/NESRGB-Pinout.pdf

What other diagram are you referring to?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:21 am 


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mjs0686 wrote:
FBX wrote:
eric90000 wrote:

And the NESRGB board can output both 75ohm and TTL level csync?



Not according to what Tim said. Both the older and newer revisions have resistors attenuating the csync signal. So no, the NESRGB board does not output TTL csync in any normal circumstance. In his diagram he posted, revisions 12 and 13 have a 680 Ohm resistor on the csync line, while the current revision 14 has a 470 Ohm resistor plus a jumper to an additional 91 Ohm resistor. So even if you leave the jumper open, you've still got a 470 Ohm resistor on the csync line.

What all this means is you're in no danger of TTL csync levels coming out of the NESRGB board in any scenario.


I'm not doubting you because I'm quite the newbie to this but in this diagram it says it outputs TTL sync when the jumper is open.

https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/NESRGB-Pinout.pdf

What other diagram are you referring to?


This quote:
viewtopic.php?p=1264850#p1264850

viletim wrote:
Here's the output circuit.

Image

U10 is the comparator connected to the buffered video signal from the PPU in order to extract the sync. The output is a push/pull to each rail. The output impedance of that device is probably something like 10-30 ohms.

An additional series resistor in the cable of 330 ohms (making the worse case total [30+680+330 = 1.04k]) should still be reliable. If the series resistor in the cable is 470 ohms, it may be on marginal side with the older NESRGB 1.2 and 1.3 hardware. This is in theory only.

The unrelated question regarding whether its to have capacitors in series with each video signal (R, G ,B) if these capacitor already exist on board. I think it's fine. Placing two capacitors in series does reduce the capacitance, but it doesn't cause any trouble in practice.

I'm going to do some proper SCART cable testing soon. I already have some cables from Retrogamingcables.co.uk
_________________
Hi-Def NES firmware with RGBSource Color Palettes
New NESRGB Firmware Featuring RGBSource Color Palettes
NES "Hybrid" Palette - Striking a Balance Between Composite and RGB
Creating an "accurate" NES NTSC Color Palette


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:29 am 



Joined: 09 Apr 2017
Posts: 48
RGBSource wrote:


OK thanks.

The cable I got is designed for SNES TTL output so it has a 330 ohm resistor on the csync line.

So according to Tim that should be fine. I'll just have to test it when it comes in and if it doesn't work I guess I'll have to find a custom cable somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:52 am 


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Location: DFW area, Texas
mjs0686 wrote:

OK thanks.

The cable I got is designed for SNES TTL output so it has a 330 ohm resistor on the csync line.

So according to Tim that should be fine. I'll just have to test it when it comes in and if it doesn't work I guess I'll have to find a custom cable somewhere.


You should be fine with it. The big scare was raw TTL csync getting sent to hardware devices that expected attenuated csync. The Framemeister expects attenuated csync, and for a while, cables made by Retro-Access for the Genesis were putting out boosted csync that was overloading the safe voltage range going into the Framemeister. Going on the lower end of voltage will be fine as long as you get a stable picture. If not, you can always send the cable back and request one be made with no resistors in the csync line.
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:09 am 



Joined: 09 Apr 2017
Posts: 48
FBX wrote:
mjs0686 wrote:

OK thanks.

The cable I got is designed for SNES TTL output so it has a 330 ohm resistor on the csync line.

So according to Tim that should be fine. I'll just have to test it when it comes in and if it doesn't work I guess I'll have to find a custom cable somewhere.


You should be fine with it. The big scare was raw TTL csync getting sent to hardware devices that expected attenuated csync. The Framemeister expects attenuated csync, and for a while, cables made by Retro-Access for the Genesis were putting out boosted csync that was overloading the safe voltage range going into the Framemeister. Going on the lower end of voltage will be fine as long as you get a stable picture. If not, you can always send the cable back and request one be made with no resistors in the csync line.


OK, that makes sense. I was just worried about frying my new gscart switch but like you said it seems like the NESRGB does not output these high voltages on csync line no matter what.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:57 am 


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Posts: 698
Location: Australia
Quick question
Why are the FBX palettes not hosted on Tim's site and what firmware revision do the ones FBX hosted site refer to?
They should really all be in one spot.
Tim has 1 FBX firmware hosted but is it saturated or not ECT. Not enough info out there.

@FBX you've got stuff all comparison shots on your site dude. Basically gotta flash my NESRGB to see what you have to offer... still thanks everyone that was involved in custom palettes.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:00 am 


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Syntax wrote:
Quick question
Why are the FBX palettes not hosted on Tim's site and what firmware revision do the ones FBX hosted site refer to?
They should really all be in one spot.
Tim has 1 FBX firmware hosted but is it saturated or not ECT. Not enough info out there.

@FBX you've got stuff all comparison shots on your site dude. Basically gotta flash my NESRGB to see what you have to offer... still thanks everyone that was involved in custom palettes.


Comparison to what? The original YUV palette from Nestopia? I suppose I could always make more pics if that's an issue. It's just that most people know to download the .pal files I offer in order to check them out in emulators like Nestopia or in say the NT mini. That way, people get to test-drive them before going through the trouble of flashing their NESRGB boards. Just keep in mind I hear that YUV is actually closer to PAL format colors than it is NTSC, so if you're on PAL, stick with the original YUV palette.

Concerning revision, all of the palettes on my page are based on the current firmware.
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:04 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1007
Location: Toronto, Canada
I got my defective NESRGB board back from Tim the other day. Not sure what was wrong with it; it seems he replaced a few of the SMD capacitors that are found all over the board as well as the small 5V power regulator.

Well, it works. The picture is as flawless as the others I installed in the past couple of weeks. No lines, no bleeding. Just amazing looking on this PVM.

Tim thank you for the wonderful customer service!!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:00 pm 


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Posts: 127
Location: Detroit, MI
A question about proper SCART cables for an RGB modded NES...

I bought this one from Retro-Access (https://retro-access.com/collections/sc ... nded-cable)

I'm using it with both my SNES and RGBnes (the person who modded it added a nintendo multi-out port to it). It seems to work OK with my RGBnes on my PVM, but I noticed this message on the Retro-Access site:

"This cable contains a 330 ohm resistor on the csync line. This is to lower the csync voltage of a standard snes. The resistor may make it incompatible with mod boards with a Nintendo type multiout. If your modder is using 75 ohm sync output, simply leave a message when checking out that you don't need the resistor. "

What kind of problems would arise from using a cable with the 330 ohm resistor on a RGB NES system that doesn't need it? Would the picture be too dark?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:12 pm 


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TastySoil wrote:

What kind of problems would arise from using a cable with the 330 ohm resistor on a RGB NES system that doesn't need it? Would the picture be too dark?


It's in reference to the csync output of the NESRGB board already being attenuated by the board itself, so you don't actually need a resistor in the cable on that line like you do with the Super NES. However, it should work fine anyway (confirmed working fine with the Framemeister). And no, it will not 'darken' the picture. The csync data merely tells where to draw the graphics on the screen, not how bright or dark they appear. The danger is when there is too much voltage (like with the Super NES) which will shorten the lifespan of the input device you use with it. If you have both the Super NES and NESRGB board, it's a safer thing to just use the same 330 Ohm resistor cables on both. You don't want to get a cable without a resistor and accidentally get them swapped by mistake.
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:59 pm 


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Location: Detroit, MI
Thanks for the response FBX! That really helps me understand it better. Glad to hear that using this cable won't hurt anything


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:35 am 



Joined: 09 Apr 2017
Posts: 48
TastySoil wrote:
Thanks for the response FBX! That really helps me understand it better. Glad to hear that using this cable won't hurt anything


Just started using that same cable with my NESRGB. Works fine for me.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:58 am 


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Posts: 6
SkyNIC wrote:
Hi everyone. I have problem with nesrgb on av famicom. I tried to wire 10uf cap between 3.3V and gnd it don't help. I can't replace MCP1703T because I don't have suitable equipment. Here photos:
Image
On this photo hurricane should be invisible, but it is slightly visible.
Image
On this pirate Double Dragon 3 copyright titles was removed and should be invisible.
Image
This photo from another console without nesrgb with same pirate Double Dragon 3 cartridge. On this another console hurricane from Little Samson game also invisible.
This problem appears when I use RGB or s-video connection. With composite it is slightly visible if bright on max.

bump


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:01 pm 



Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 8
Hey guys,

Up until now I was always using Csync for sync with perfect results.

This time I have a customer very adamant to keep both composite signal and RGB on his Famicom AV.

So I’ve used V for sync and removed R6 to kill the original composite signal.

I have a great composite signal but a very visible flickering on RGB especially on the Reds.

I’ve tried changing my sync and all options (Y, CS, PPUV) are working perfectly (but then I lose the composite signal). I just have this issue with Sync on V

Do you have any idea ?

I’m running my test on a Sony Trinitron CRT with Pal GameCube and Pal SNES original euro scart.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:03 pm 


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Posts: 698
Location: Australia
viper1701 wrote:
Hey guys,

Up until now I was always using Csync for sync with perfect results.

This time I have a customer very adamant to keep both composite signal and RGB on his Famicom AV.

So I’ve used V for sync and removed R6 to kill the original composite signal.

I have a great composite signal but a very visible flickering on RGB especially on the Reds.

I’ve tried changing my sync and all options (Y, CS, PPUV) are working perfectly (but then I lose the composite signal). I just have this issue with Sync on V

Do you have any idea ?

I’m running my test on a Sony Trinitron CRT with Pal GameCube and Pal SNES original euro scart.


Wire CSync to pin 3 I think, make your customer RGB via a Csync cable, and if he wants composite then either leave the original video line in place and wire a switch to turn the NESRGB kit off OR wire the new RGB encoded composite to the original video line.

For my av I have RGB Csync on the first 4 pins, the trace to the original video line cut, and the new encoded one wired to it.
I did this because its just easier having an SNES original av plug always plugged into my set and I just change to it if I want composite.

Still you shouldn't of had an issue with your initial config...


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:17 pm 



Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 8
Syntax wrote:
For my av I have RGB Csync on the first 4 pins, the trace to the original video line cut, and the new encoded one wired to it.
.


Yeah that’s basically exactly what I did and for the same reason. To be able to’ keep using the original Snes RGB cable.

And like you said I just don’t understand why sync on composite would not work well, especially when my composite signal is perfect and all others sync method works well.

It’s not the end of the world because there are workarounds (like using a csync cable, or using PPUV with a switch off) but I like stuff to be perfect and more importantly, I like to understand why something is not working as it should.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:59 am 



Joined: 01 Aug 2014
Posts: 10
I just got (and repaired) a stock AV Famicom HVC-101, and I'm actually pretty unimpressed with it.

#1 - Expansion audio. Akumajou Densetsu sounds like garbage due to the sound mixing
#2 - Dark colours. Far darker and inferior to those of my av-modded Famicom HVC-001.

I'm hoping the NESRGB will naturally fix #2, but is there any provision for it to help with #1 as well? The audio is really detrimental to the enjoyment of CV3 :/

I haven't wanted to put a NESRGB into the HVC-001 since it requires getting rid of the eject mechanism.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:01 am 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 189
fluxcore wrote:
#2 - Dark colours. Far darker and inferior to those of my av-modded Famicom HVC-001.


Are you by chance using a european Nintendo composite cable? That will cause the dark picture on an av Famicom.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:33 pm 



Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Posts: 62
fluxcore wrote:
#1 - Expansion audio. Akumajou Densetsu sounds like garbage due to the sound mixingis there any provision for it to help with #1 as well? The audio is really detrimental to the enjoyment of CV3 :/

you need to rebuild the audio circuit to be like a red/white famicom because the inverter integrated into one of the IC can only output 3.3v, which will screw the balance with expansion audio carts. Note that if you plan to use an Everdrive, the expansion audio sound level is lower than the carts so you need to adjust the circuit (lowering the feedback resistor value would be the right way I guess ?).
Info found here (that also covers microphone restauration, but it's way more complex). If you need help with this, PM me.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:29 pm 



Joined: 14 Jan 2014
Posts: 146
I had the horizontal streaks problem a couple of others here had and so I had the 10uf cap installed as Tim suggested after checking Leon's board. I thought I would share results for anyone curious. The problem is still there but it's much more muted. The zelda II screenshot shows an issue still exists but it's certainly better.

Comparison of before and after 10uf cap installed:
Image

Adjusted in photoshop to easier to see effects:
Image


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:19 pm 


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Posts: 698
Location: Australia
Id be replacing the regulator. Using a filter cap is just masking the issue.

Recently purchased 10 of these regulators and 6 were crappy and producing A.C.. first bad run of parts I've recieved in years and it was doing my head in.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:16 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1007
Location: Toronto, Canada
based on personal experience a lot of the Alps power supplies inside NES front loaders have 2 100uF caps. One of them is always leaking. replace that cap. Especially in newer nes pcb revisions.

Mitsumi are much more reliable.

Not really used in nesrgb install (for RF output) but don't want it to short.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:30 pm 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 510
I got an issue with my NESRGB. I get these weird horizontal lines of flicker around the center of the screen at random intervals. Looks like its power related, but I've tried 3 different power supplys (one being an official SNES adapter) and the issue is there with all of them. The same 3 power supply power another modded NES I have with no issues at all.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x79wt10tpu6mm ... 6.mp4?dl=0

If you watch as mario moves, you can see the lines flickering over him


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