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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:15 pm 


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Location: New York
I bought a premodded AV Famicom.

He said he got it working with composite but it's not working for me and he said he was only able to get it to show a picture straight to his TV.

Will it work via composite?

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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:46 pm 



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The composite video on that install is the green wire. As you can see, he cut the original pin 21 / amplified composite video (last picture) and is using the composite video from the NESRGB. If you use standard SNES/N64 composite video cable (yellow/red/white), it should work for you.

The install is "OK" but I would have done a few things differently:

1) BIG issue - The palette switch. He seems to have installed a 2 way switch rather than 3 way. You select between enhanced or PC10. There's no way for you to select the real NES/Famicom palette (short between pin 3 and GND)!!! If using only 2 way, I would have done original/enhanced and dumped the PC10.
2) The NESRGB is not secured in any way to the NES PCB. Gametech.us has a good suggestion of using glue stick posts. I've done that with great success for my customers as well.
3) No LED mod
4) Q1 (the old composite video amp) is still there! It's recommended to be removed to avoid Everdrive N8 issues


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:49 am 



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 453
Location: Sydney, Australia
leonk wrote:

The cable was built by that lady on eBay. It only has 220 ohm caps on RGB lines. Cable works great with snes/n64 using sync generated by those consoles, black screen/audio only on Nesrgb. I've had multiple customers report this issue, and this is a result of my finding.

Opening J8 fixes the issue.


Plug the cable into the console and take out your multimeter. Measure the resistance between the CS# pad and pin 20 of the SCART cable. There's probably a resistor in there.


Smashbro29 wrote:
I bought a premodded AV Famicom.

He said he got it working with composite but it's not working for me and he said he was only able to get it to show a picture straight to his TV.

Will it work via composite?


The installation looks fine. It should work with composite video if you use an NTSC version A/V cable (the PAL one is different).

keropi wrote:
viletim wrote:
The early version, the one marked only NESRGB on the silkscreen with no number after it, has a bad sync separator circuit. You should use PPUV video signal for sync in this case.


My boards have "NESRGB T.W. 2013" silkscreened so they are old... I am using LUMA as sync , is this affected as well?
Could one "upgrade" the sync seperator on these old boards or does it require a huge change? (I did replace the srams back then so this kind of soldering is no problem for me...) Maybe I can make some small board with the new sync stuff and just add it to the NESRGB like the component addon?


Yes, Luma is affected too. There is an upgrade mod. Please send me an email and I'll give you the details.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:26 am 


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viletim wrote:

The installation looks fine. It should work with composite video if you use an NTSC version A/V cable (the PAL one is different).

I tried the composite cable I used to use for N64/SNES, official Nintendo NTSC. Worked with my SNES and N64 perfectly but I put it into both the mini and multiple TVs directly with the AV Famicom and I got nothing. My games are clean as a whistle but I was told I'd get a blank signal even if no game was inserted and both the TVs and the mini reported no input.


leonk wrote:
The composite video on that install is the green wire. As you can see, he cut the original pin 21 / amplified composite video (last picture) and is using the composite video from the NESRGB. If you use standard SNES/N64 composite video cable (yellow/red/white), it should work for you.

The install is "OK" but I would have done a few things differently:

1) BIG issue - The palette switch. He seems to have installed a 2 way switch rather than 3 way. You select between enhanced or PC10. There's no way for you to select the real NES/Famicom palette (short between pin 3 and GND)!!! If using only 2 way, I would have done original/enhanced and dumped the PC10.
2) The NESRGB is not secured in any way to the NES PCB. Gametech.us has a good suggestion of using glue stick posts. I've done that with great success for my customers as well.
3) No LED mod
4) Q1 (the old composite video amp) is still there! It's recommended to be removed to avoid Everdrive N8 issues


1) My RGB setup is temporarily down but he assures me all 3 work
2)Fair enough, I couldn't tell you
3)I knew that going in, it was such a good price
4)Which issues?
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:19 am 



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 453
Location: Sydney, Australia
Smashbro29 wrote:
viletim wrote:

The installation looks fine. It should work with composite video if you use an NTSC version A/V cable (the PAL one is different).

I tried the composite cable I used to use for N64/SNES, official Nintendo NTSC. Worked with my SNES and N64 perfectly but I put it into both the mini and multiple TVs directly with the AV Famicom and I got nothing. My games are clean as a whistle but I was told I'd get a blank signal even if no game was inserted and both the TVs and the mini reported no input.

1) My RGB setup is temporarily down but he assures me all 3 work


Oh, so it simply doesn't work at all? No sound or video? The installation looks typical from the photos, but there is obviously something wrong. Test your power supply and AV cable if you can. Otherwise, this matter should be taken up with whoever sold it to you.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:06 am 



Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 37
leonk wrote:
Tim, I can now confirm that the XRGB mini with latest firmware (2.00a) does not work with the NESRGB 1.4 with CSYNC set to 75ohm. It works great with TTL setting. There are no resistors/caps in SCART/RGB cable for sync wire.

I think the installation instructions be updated to reflect this finding.



I just tested a couple units with J8 closed with a cable wired up to composite sync and they both worked fine on a mini with the latest firmware.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:51 pm 


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Location: New York
viletim wrote:
Smashbro29 wrote:
viletim wrote:

The installation looks fine. It should work with composite video if you use an NTSC version A/V cable (the PAL one is different).

I tried the composite cable I used to use for N64/SNES, official Nintendo NTSC. Worked with my SNES and N64 perfectly but I put it into both the mini and multiple TVs directly with the AV Famicom and I got nothing. My games are clean as a whistle but I was told I'd get a blank signal even if no game was inserted and both the TVs and the mini reported no input.

1) My RGB setup is temporarily down but he assures me all 3 work


Oh, so it simply doesn't work at all? No sound or video? The installation looks typical from the photos, but there is obviously something wrong. Test your power supply and AV cable if you can. Otherwise, this matter should be taken up with whoever sold it to you.

No, you misunderstand.

Composite video isn't working with my Nintendo multi-out.

I can't test RGB because I sent my cables to a friend to have him convert them to something specific so I can't verify that it works but I trust the guy well enough.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:32 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1018
Location: Toronto, Canada
retro_console_accessories got back to me. For some reason, a 180 ohm resistor is inline with the CSYNC wire on the multiAV end (Not the SCART end). According to her, there is no resistor in the 8 pin mini din cable she provides for the NES RGB, it is passive. Very strange.

In any case, problem solved. Either request SCART cables with passive csync, or use TTL on NESRGB J8.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:58 am 



Joined: 22 Nov 2015
Posts: 6
I want to connect a NES with this board to an extron switch directly, so no scart. Can I simply put some RCA jacks on the NES for r, g, b, and cync? Then run those directly to the extron? I'm also not 100% sure about how to wire the RCA jacks. Is it just line to the ring and ground on the sleeve? Is it that simple or am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:56 am 



Joined: 22 Nov 2015
Posts: 6
Tim gave me the answer through email, my assumptions were correct and all I need to do is leave jumper j8 open for ttl sync on cs#. This is great since it saves me from needing a scart cable and a scart to bnc cable, I can just go direct to the extron.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:12 pm 


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Ordered one, received, put it on today => nothing.
Twin famicom was working fine before, but now it's just black; can't even ear the disk system starting up, and its light is not lit.
Will check tomorrow what the f*** happened.

Desoldering the PPU is a nightmare; worse thing I had to desolder so far.

Edit: oh, and the light in the SCART cable kit isn't lit as well. Thinking of a power issue, hope it's nothing major...
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:28 pm 


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As an NESRGB is something that I've been considering doing, what specifically about the desoldering gave you difficulty?

Based on the relatively limited desoldering that I've done in the past, my attempt to desolder would include:

1) Add a lot of solder to each pin on the bottom of the motherboard
2) Heat up each solder joint and hit it with the solder pump
3) Wiggle each pin a bit to break residual solder

This approach has worked for me before, most recently to replace the analog stick pot on a gamecube controller, but that was only 10 pins compared to the 40 pins on the PPU. Is there something different about the PPU that would break my normal approach?

One potential good thing is that I do have a junk NES motherboard that I can try it on before I try it on the "real" thing. The junk board was perfectly fine, but I desoldered the RF box (and accidentally crushed a ceramic cap) to use in a different project, but it does give me a motherboard to experiment on so that if I mess up I've not destroyed my real NES. Or a potential spare CPU/PPU if that part goes wrong.

EDIT: Desoldering the NES RF box was a pain, it took hours because of the massive tabs that are soldered in. Doing the pins themselves was easy, but for the giant tabs attached to the ground plane, it was melt one joint, pry a bit with a screwdriver, let cool, melt next join, pry a bit with the screwdriver, let cool... Repeat for several hours.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:12 pm 



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Several of the NES PPU legs are connected to GND which due to their surface area act as large heat sinks, so melting the solder around those legs can be a nightmare unless you have a very hot iron.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:23 pm 


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well It's a nightmare because of the GND, but also because they are plated through. Takes ages, even with putting more lead...
I do have a hot iron; can be set up to 400 °C, but even though it took ages, and I now fear that I fried it in the process overheating it.
Will check more tomorrow, will try to take everything apart and put the PPU back (on a socket :) ) to see if it's fried or if there is an issue with the board itself (unfortunately unlikely) .
Will also try to get my 2nd twin back tomorrow to test the power board.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:39 pm 


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kamiboy wrote:
Several of the NES PPU legs are connected to GND which due to their surface area act as large heat sinks, so melting the solder around those legs can be a nightmare unless you have a very hot iron.


I've got a Hakko FX-888D, which seems to have a reasonable amount of power. It's a 70W soldering iron with a max temperature of 480c. I wanted to upgrade from my el-cheapo noname soldering iron (which cost like $20 USD), so it looked like a good upgrade. I would think that the thermal capacity of the iron would be more important than the max temperature, though...


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:01 pm 


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nihonmasa wrote:
e with the board itself (unfortunately unlikely) .


couldn't sleep, so tried; can only get some red glitches. PPU is indeed fried. Let's hope there's nothing more and that I can easily find one...
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:09 pm 


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You can try looking for for-parts NES on eBay. Heck, most of them with "blinking red light" just need their 72-pin connectors bent and boiled, and if you just want the PPU you can buy one in terrible cosmetic condition too.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:11 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
As an NESRGB is something that I've been considering doing, what specifically about the desoldering gave you difficulty?

Based on the relatively limited desoldering that I've done in the past, my attempt to desolder would include:

1) Add a lot of solder to each pin on the bottom of the motherboard
2) Heat up each solder joint and hit it with the solder pump
3) Wiggle each pin a bit to break residual solder

This approach has worked for me before, most recently to replace the analog stick pot on a gamecube controller, but that was only 10 pins compared to the 40 pins on the PPU. Is there something different about the PPU that would break my normal approach?

One potential good thing is that I do have a junk NES motherboard that I can try it on before I try it on the "real" thing. The junk board was perfectly fine, but I desoldered the RF box (and accidentally crushed a ceramic cap) to use in a different project, but it does give me a motherboard to experiment on so that if I mess up I've not destroyed my real NES. Or a potential spare CPU/PPU if that part goes wrong.

EDIT: Desoldering the NES RF box was a pain, it took hours because of the massive tabs that are soldered in. Doing the pins themselves was easy, but for the giant tabs attached to the ground plane, it was melt one joint, pry a bit with a screwdriver, let cool, melt next join, pry a bit with the screwdriver, let cool... Repeat for several hours.


If you could desolder the NES RF box then your iron should have the thermal capacity to desolder the pins that are attached to the ground plane without too much of a problem.

I highly, highly recommend a desoldering gun (like the Hakko 808 or Hakko FR-300). It makes the work a piece of cake. However, I have desoldered the NES PPU (for PC10 RGB PPU installs and NESRGB installs) and CPU (for CopyNES installs) with just a Radio Shack shit desoldering iron w/ pump, before I owned my Hakko 808. It was basically a tedious task of what you said above: add solder, use pump, wiggle pin until it's free; repeat. Use caution to make sure you don't heat up the PPU too much and fry it (i.e. be patient!). Also, make sure you know how to repair traces in case you damage a trace or via when removing the PPU.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:43 am 



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 322
darcagn wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
As an NESRGB is something that I've been considering doing, what specifically about the desoldering gave you difficulty?

Based on the relatively limited desoldering that I've done in the past, my attempt to desolder would include:

1) Add a lot of solder to each pin on the bottom of the motherboard
2) Heat up each solder joint and hit it with the solder pump
3) Wiggle each pin a bit to break residual solder

This approach has worked for me before, most recently to replace the analog stick pot on a gamecube controller, but that was only 10 pins compared to the 40 pins on the PPU. Is there something different about the PPU that would break my normal approach?

One potential good thing is that I do have a junk NES motherboard that I can try it on before I try it on the "real" thing. The junk board was perfectly fine, but I desoldered the RF box (and accidentally crushed a ceramic cap) to use in a different project, but it does give me a motherboard to experiment on so that if I mess up I've not destroyed my real NES. Or a potential spare CPU/PPU if that part goes wrong.

EDIT: Desoldering the NES RF box was a pain, it took hours because of the massive tabs that are soldered in. Doing the pins themselves was easy, but for the giant tabs attached to the ground plane, it was melt one joint, pry a bit with a screwdriver, let cool, melt next join, pry a bit with the screwdriver, let cool... Repeat for several hours.


If you could desolder the NES RF box then your iron should have the thermal capacity to desolder the pins that are attached to the ground plane without too much of a problem.

I highly, highly recommend a desoldering gun (like the Hakko 808 or Hakko FR-300). It makes the work a piece of cake. However, I have desoldered the NES PPU (for PC10 RGB PPU installs and NESRGB installs) and CPU (for CopyNES installs) with just a Radio Shack shit desoldering iron w/ pump, before I owned my Hakko 808. It was basically a tedious task of what you said above: add solder, use pump, wiggle pin until it's free; repeat. Use caution to make sure you don't heat up the PPU too much and fry it (i.e. be patient!). Also, make sure you know how to repair traces in case you damage a trace or via when removing the PPU.

As both of you mention, thermal capacity/tip mass is more important than actual temperature limits. I have a Pace desoldering iron which I suspect the Hakko is similar to, though packaged differently since it's not a self-contained gun. In an old VHS tape that came with the tool when i got it years ago, they recommended the technique of desoldering alternate pins around the chip and then making a second pass to do the others; in that way you don't heat the same concentrated area for as long a period of time. Sounded like a good idea and I've always used the technique; whether it actually does anything or not I don't think it can hurt. (A sort of ironic comment coming from me I suppose lol.)

I've found even with that tool adding solder first is a good idea on something old like this; not for the extra amount but because fresh unoxidized uncontaminated solder heats up better and flows better. Using liquid flux can help too.

Disclaimer: I've never removed a NES PPU, but I've done other chips that I would assume are similar, such as a Mega CD BIOS.

It doesn't apply to things we talk about here, but even with good tools I've had about zero luck removing even simple through-hole components like capacitors from ground planes on newer stuff done with lead-free solder, such as trying to replace bad caps on a PC motherboard.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:15 am 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 1136
before i had the FR-300,

I had arrived at a technique that worked decent.

Id use one of the big soldering irons with the transformer in it, and heat up the ground plane with it for a while. Not the ppu, the ground plane next to it.

then id get my cheap radio shack desoldering iron and take the solder out before the ground plane cooled. sometimes i could get all ground pins before it cooled.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:37 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
Desoldering the NES RF box was a pain, it took hours because of the massive tabs that are soldered in. Doing the pins themselves was easy, but for the giant tabs attached to the ground plane, it was melt one joint, pry a bit with a screwdriver, let cool, melt next join, pry a bit with the screwdriver, let cool... Repeat for several hours.


You can do the job quite well with just a generic Radio-Shack de-soldering iron (with bulb pump).

I made a little quick and dirty (horribly edited) video to outline good practice when removing these chips.

I didn't speed up the desoldering process, the video is for the most part raw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PJQLRuB1n8

Improper desoldering can and will result in several lifted via's and traces. I've had SEVERAL sent to me that required extensive trace repair. If it doesn't want to come out with very light force, don't pull it.

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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:46 am 


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Location: Montréal, Canada
Hmm, I should practice on my spare NES motherboard. If I mess that one up, no skin of my back, and if I don't mess it up, spare working PPU.

I don't have a desolder iron, just a decent soldering station and a solder pump (this one: http://www.robotshop.com/ca/en/elenco-h ... -sp-4.html) and some 0.075" desolder braid (this one: http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/sol ... -wick-400/)


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:00 am 



Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Posts: 404
Voultar wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Desoldering the NES RF box was a pain, it took hours because of the massive tabs that are soldered in. Doing the pins themselves was easy, but for the giant tabs attached to the ground plane, it was melt one joint, pry a bit with a screwdriver, let cool, melt next join, pry a bit with the screwdriver, let cool... Repeat for several hours.


You can do the job quite well with just a generic Radio-Shack de-soldering iron (with bulb pump).

I made a little quick and dirty (horribly edited) video to outline good practice when removing these chips.

I didn't speed up the desoldering process, the video is for the most part raw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PJQLRuB1n8

Improper desoldering can and will result in several lifted via's and traces. I've had SEVERAL sent to me that required extensive trace repair. If it doesn't want to come out with very light force, don't pull it.

Image


Voultar pulled the PPU out of that system with vice grips, he told me so.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:02 am 


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No, I didn't..

I said channel-locks, not vice-grips..
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:02 am 



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Posts: 404
Voultar wrote:
No, I didn't..

I said channel-locks, not vice-grips..


oh yeah
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:32 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1018
Location: Toronto, Canada
It very much depends on the console as well. I noticed that Top Loaders can get its pads lifted much more easily than Front loader even when using a desolder station. The pads are simply smaller, and not as much bond between the copper and substrate holding them down.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:41 pm 


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Voultar wrote:
No, I didn't..

I said channel-locks, not vice-grips..


You normally use an air hammer when removing PPUs, right? :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:23 pm 



Joined: 06 May 2013
Posts: 60
Location: USA
Anyone know if strange screen "bending" on certain games with brighter colors would be related to my NESRGB or if it potentially indicates I need to do a cap kit on my PVM? The issue doesn't occur when running the NESRGB on my AV Famicom through the Framemeister, nor does it occur with the composite video out on another CRT.

I'm using a SNES AV cable from retro_console_accessories on eBay, but I've tried another generic RGB cable from China as well with the same issue.

[video=youtube;bYOtvS7FI68]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYOtvS7FI68[/video]

Here's a picture from Super Mario Bros 1 too:
Image

Only brighter screens seem to be affected; like level 1 in Super Mario is effected, but Level 2 in the tunnels is not. Also, games like Castlevania 3 don't seem to have any issues at all (at least within the first couple levels).


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:47 am 



Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Posts: 404
What model is the PVM and are you using composite sync, composite video for sync, Luma for sync, or PPUV for sync?
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:19 pm 



Joined: 06 May 2013
Posts: 60
Location: USA
Skips wrote:
What model is the PVM and are you using composite sync, composite video for sync, Luma for sync, or PPUV for sync?


It's a PVM-1910 and I'm using composite video for sync. I've been told to get a video cable wired for csync and hook up CS#, so I'm going to give that a try.

In the meantime it looks glorious on the Framemeister so I'll just use that for now.


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