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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:14 pm 


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Hi there, I'm new to boards as in posting wise but have been coming here for the past 2 years for reference and information on all things retro related RGB (especially the NES).

My first mod to my NES-101 was a simple AV mod I made from my own schematic and I harvested a Multiout from a destroyed SNES and installed on the back of the NES-101 and hooked it up to be used as my AV out.

I just now bought the NESRGB board and will be doing a video along with step by step instructions on the install. I have a feeling I will have a fe questions but with about 2 years of learning and studying on the NESRGB and SCART compatibility (especially Multiout to SCART), I'm fairly confident this won't be much of a problem.

By the way, I love this place so much and thanks to people like Viletim for their time and effort to develop a very beautiful thing such as the NESRGB, never was in love with the Playchoice 10 solution. Also, people like Fudoh who delves into specifics diligently. This place all around is amazing and can't wait to contribute to this board as well!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:38 pm 


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patchboston wrote:
Greetings Guys! I have just successfully finished all the soldering for my toaster nes, and now the next step is installing all the connectors onto the case. Along with the NESRGB, I also purchased Tim's SCART adapter. It's nice, but I rather implement a good old fashioned SNES multi-out attached to my SNES/N64 scart cable.

Now here are my questions: After reading this thread, my mind is a little blown..reproduction multiouts, capacitors in the scart cable, and more! Could someone clarify if I need to modify the scart connector or the multi-out from a snes (i.e, add resistors, remove capacitors, etc) to properly use with nesrgb? This is the only part I'm finding confusing..

-Dave


Here's a very informative website concerning SCART cable's and diagrams for consoles.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm

Tim and a guy that goes by RGB32E has talked on here before (or I think it might be nfggames.com) about using the Multiout to SCART cable, I believe the one with the 220 farade capacitors can be used without having to take off the 220u capacitors (unless you want to dedicate an SCART cable to the NESRGB). I think it's the PAL Gamecube Multiout to SCART cable that people prefer to use. That is a big I THINK and by no means have the absolute answer as the aforementioned people do. Anyways, you can check this link out... it's not this forum so I don't know the rules on linking to other forums... but trying googling Official Nintendo AV Cables for SNES, N64 and Gamecube - resistors & capacitors.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:40 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
Has anyone tried using sync on Luma/Y with the NESRGB? Im considering moving it from C Sync as my Keene Scart Commander switch seems to cause a slight jitter in the picture-- if I bypass the Keene the picture is immaculate. Not sure that would even help, but considering it. Please let me know if anyone has used sync on Y with any success.

I don't see why that wouldn't work, Tim even recommends using it for maximum compatibility.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:03 pm 


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ApolloBoy wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
Has anyone tried using sync on Luma/Y with the NESRGB? Im considering moving it from C Sync as my Keene Scart Commander switch seems to cause a slight jitter in the picture-- if I bypass the Keene the picture is immaculate. Not sure that would even help, but considering it. Please let me know if anyone has used sync on Y with any success.

I don't see why that wouldn't work, Tim even recommends using it for maximum compatibility.


ORLY?
Image

I recall Tim's statement to use Y as sync for maximum compatibility. This was especially true when the sync stripping circuit changed on the second production run, but resolved in subsequent productions. Problem I found with using luma as sync is that it will create visual artifacts when connected to the XRGB-mini. I've noted this elsewhere before.

Image

Essentially every 16 rows or so of pixels are shifted alternately left/right. Ended up using PPUV instead of Y as I didn't encounter any issues using PPUV on the XRGB-mini.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:08 pm 


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I believe Josh128 uses a SCART to component converter so I don't think that would be an issue.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:32 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
Has anyone tried using sync on Luma/Y with the NESRGB? Im considering moving it from C Sync as my Keene Scart Commander switch seems to cause a slight jitter in the picture-- if I bypass the Keene the picture is immaculate. Not sure that would even help, but considering it. Please let me know if anyone has used sync on Y with any success.


I'm using Luma for Sync but I have a totally different SCART switch, and it seems to work just fine.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:40 pm 


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ApolloBoy wrote:
I believe Josh128 uses a SCART to component converter so I don't think that would be an issue.



Yes, Im using a CSY-2100 clone. I originally used V or composite video sync, but had some diagonal mini jailbars. I re-opened and used CS# and it cured the jailbars and worked beautifully with the CSY clone and my F4500.

V is out of the question for me, due to the jailbars, but Im fine with Y/Luma if it cures the problem Im having with the Keene and works with no other visible issues. If it doesnt fix the problem Ill probably move back to CS# and just use the Keene for my other systems and switch the NES the old fashioned way. Which will suck pretty bad considering I just paid $140 for the Keene to avoid having to do that. :(

eightbitminiboss wrote:

I'm using Luma for Sync but I have a totally different SCART switch, and it seems to work just fine.


Good, it should be just as crisp as CS#, and hopefully more compatible with the Keene. Strange thing is that my Genesis and SNES and N64 are also using pure/composite sync, and the Keene has no issues with them.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:14 am 



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Josh128,

If you have version 1 board hardware (marked "NESRGB", bought on April 2014 or earlier) you should use PPUV for sync. This version has a crappy sync separation circuit. All other sync outputs have a bit of noise on them which may upset some digital processors. The PPUV signal, while being the original PPU video output, doesn't cause colour interference problem like the V signal does because it doesn't have any colour in it while the NESRGB board is operating.

If you have later hardware (marked NESRGB12) then all the signals with sync should be fine: PPUV, Y, V, CS#. I generally recommend the Y signal for most setups. The CS# is not really designed to drive a 75 ohm video input, but it should work (as well as any other console at least).


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:38 am 


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viletim wrote:
Josh128,

If you have version 1 board hardware (marked "NESRGB", bought on April 2014 or earlier) you should use PPUV for sync. This version has a crappy sync separation circuit. All other sync outputs have a bit of noise on them which may upset some digital processors. The PPUV signal, while being the original PPU video output, doesn't cause colour interference problem like the V signal does because it doesn't have any colour in it while the NESRGB board is operating.

If you have later hardware (marked NESRGB12) then all the signals with sync should be fine: PPUV, Y, V, CS#. I generally recommend the Y signal for most setups. The CS# is not really designed to drive a 75 ohm video input, but it should work (as well as any other console at least).


Hmmm... I received my board in January of 2014--so that means it has the crappy separation circuit? "V" did cause some faint jailbar like lines upon the original install, so I changed to CS# and it fixed the problem and has been flawless until I got the Keene. Thats what I dont get, CS# seems like it is working like it should. Just tonight I popped open the NES and moved the sync wire to Y/Luma. Tried it with the Keene, and at first I thought it fixed the problem, but upon closer inspection, it was still there, though perhaps not as pronounced. So, I moved the wire back to CS#.

Your recommendation of PPUV is interesting-- I had not considered that it wouldnt have any chroma in it while the NESRGB is operating. I may give it one last shot and see if PPUV cures the issue without causing other problems. Below is a Youtube video I just posted showing the problem. Thanks for responding Tim, and Ill update with the results when I get a chance to try PPUV. If it works I'll be one happy camper-- I just hope I dont screw up my NES tearing into it yet again (I shiver just thinking about it :x ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIbSSHk ... e=youtu.be

In the closeups, especially on the text at :37, you can see the digital looking horizontal "shifts" of the graphics- this is the issue, the video captured it quite well. When I bypass the Keene the problem disappears...


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:13 am 



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this is the first version of nesrgb. if your board looks exactly like it thats what you have.

its missing the through hole for expansion audio and its also missing the 5 through holes by the video encoder for the component add on board.
the later nesrgb has them.


Image


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:20 pm 


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OK, I just opened it back up and moved the sync wire to PPUV-- I dont get any picture at all like that. I even tried bypassing the Keene, same issue-- the CSY-2100 sees something, because the AA component switch changes to the CSY input, and the TV switches to 720x240p, but just a black screen, not even any sound. :(

I re-connected the sync wire back to CS# and got picture and sound back. Anyone have any clue why I get nothing at all on PPUV for sync?

Would it by chance happen to have anything to do with the palette switch? I have mine wired for natural, improved, and OFF. I tried each position, no banana with PPUV. This seems a bit strange-- is there anything to check continuity on or certain solder jumpers that would stop it from working? I did check resistance to ground, and I dont remember the exact reading, but it definitely was not shorted.

Ill leave my NES halfway disassembled till I hear back, really would like to see if Tim has any insight. I really thought the PPUV was a good idea, thats just my luck that its completely dead :( .

BTW my NESRGB board says "NESRGB 2013 " on it.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:05 pm 



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Josh128 wrote:
OK, I just opened it back up and moved the sync wire to PPUV-- I dont get any picture at all like that. I even tried bypassing the Keene, same issue-- the CSY-2100 sees something, because the AA component switch changes to the CSY input, and the TV switches to 720x240p, but just a black screen, not even any sound. :(

I re-connected the sync wire back to CS# and got picture and sound back. Anyone have any clue why I get nothing at all on PPUV for sync?


This isn't normal. Connecting the PPUV signal should not change anything, certainly not stop the picture/audio. You don't need to touch the palette switch. I can't think of an explanation for this behaviour...

The NESRGB is in a front loader NES isn't it? If so, you have an alternative point for PPUV. It's the signal coming from the Nintendo's original video output connector.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:51 pm 


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So I ought to get 0 ohms from the PPUV to the original video RCA jack, correct? Doesnt moving the palette switch away from the OFF position turn off the original video signal? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:35 pm 


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Just wanted to provide an update to my current situation--

This afternoon I decided to make sure the original composite jack still worked, so I plugged it in my plasma and was quickly reminded why I undertook a NESRGB installation in the first place. It worked, but looked HORRIBLE! :shock:

So, after that, I disconnected the console and decided to check continuity from the jack to the PPUV solder point on the NESRGB. Its definitely not the same point electrically according to my Fluke, at least not when powered off.

Anyway, I moved the sync wire back to PPUV from CS# to try again. At first, it didnt work, not sure why, but I reseated everything, including the cartridge, and it actually worked. After that point, I couldnt make it not work, so I just rolled with it.

So anyway--I connected to the Keene, and to my surprise, the shifting problem was greatly reduced-- to the point I couldnt even see it at first, but then I noticed it is still there, but barely, at the top and bottom portions of the screen. Its reduced enough so that I cant detect it at normal playing distance from the set (4-5 feet). So just as a test, I bypassed the Keene again, and again the effect was completely eradicated. I also confirmed, both ways, that there were no visible interference/jailbars as when using V for sync. So, there is just something with the Keene, and at least the original hardware rev NESRGB, that just doesnt play well together...

BUT-- the reduction of the effect by moving the sync wire to PPUV is enough that Ive decided that I can live with it, and keep it on the Keene. I noted earlier that using sync on Luma seemed to help with the problem, and I guess it did--just as moving to PPUV did to an even greater extent.

Now I have a question-- it was hard to tell and of course I could not directly compare, but is it technically possible that using the PPUV composite video as sync would result in a less sharp picture than using C-sync? As I confirmed before, it doesnt cause jailbars, but could it result in a softer image or cause slight color bleed or anything? Im not saying its doing this on my setup, but I would like to know.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:19 pm 


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New to the board, but I'm running into an issue that I don't think has come up yet. I read through the thread so far before posting, but it's entirely possible I missed it. I'm throwing this one out there to the community to see if anyone has any ideas.

I'm using the latest version of the NESRGB board with the 1.7 firmware on a front loader Nintendo. I'm also using the new component video board along with it. Composite and s-video all look like they're supposed to - no unexpected distortion at all. Component video is giving me diagonal jail bars for the top third of the screen, and the very top strip of the screen is blurry and seems to flicker along with the jail bars. Here's a screen shot of Zelda II that shows what I mean:

Image

You can see the jailbars that disappear right above the town. Also, at the very top you can see how blurry the field and forrest look. Below that though, everything is crisp and beautiful! It does this in every game I try.

I really do love the NESRGB so far! Even with the distortion, it's a massive step up from composite video. I could live with the jail bars, but the flickering on the top of the screen on component video is driving me crazy.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:41 pm 


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PookaKnight wrote:
New to the board, but I'm running into an issue that I don't think has come up yet. I read through the thread so far before posting, but it's entirely possible I missed it. I'm throwing this one out there to the community to see if anyone has any ideas.

I'm using the latest version of the NESRGB board with the 1.7 firmware on a front loader Nintendo. I'm also using the new component video board along with it. Composite and s-video all look like they're supposed to - no unexpected distortion at all. Component video is giving me diagonal jail bars for the top third of the screen, and the very top strip of the screen is blurry and seems to flicker along with the jail bars. Here's a screen shot of Zelda II that shows what I mean:


You can see the jailbars that disappear right above the town. Also, at the very top you can see how blurry the field and forrest look. Below that though, everything is crisp and beautiful! It does this in every game I try.

I really do love the NESRGB so far! Even with the distortion, it's a massive step up from composite video. I could live with the jail bars, but the flickering on the top of the screen on component video is driving me crazy.


I had the exact same jailbars, but using the NESRGB composite video for sync on RGB, which was then transcoded to component with an external converter. It is odd that your jailbars disappear mid-screen though. :? Mine were just like yours, except uniform from top to bottom.

As for the flickering you describe at the top of the screen, does it look anything like whats going on in my video here-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIbSSHk ... e=youtu.be ?

You might try sync on CS# or Y if you are not already doing so. If you are, you might try sync on PPUV.

Unfortunately component video is not an option in the early NESRGB I bought last year.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:40 am 


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Josh128 wrote:
As for the flickering you describe at the top of the screen, does it look anything like whats going on in my video here-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIbSSHk ... e=youtu.be ?


That looks pretty close to what I'm seeing on mine. I tried to get some video of the flickering, but my phone is too good at compensating. My initial thought on the problem is that maybe I have a bad connection or am getting some interference somewhere, but I'd expect that to be visible on the whole screen, not just just the top.

If I could try a different sync source, I'd certainly do it! Here are the instructions for the component board: http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/component/

It doesn't look like the component board gets any sync signal, just R, G, B, +5v, and a ground. I've got Y going directly to the component socket as the instructions call for.

I just took a close look at the video in composite and s-video again. It seems like it's doing the same behavior with the flickering on those two as well, but it's not nearly as noticeable. Could a bad connection on one of PPU pins cause something like this? This is my first project like this, so I'm really just guessing.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:04 am 


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PookaKnight wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
As for the flickering you describe at the top of the screen, does it look anything like whats going on in my video here-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIbSSHk ... e=youtu.be ?


That looks pretty close to what I'm seeing on mine. I tried to get some video of the flickering, but my phone is too good at compensating. My initial thought on the problem is that maybe I have a bad connection or am getting some interference somewhere, but I'd expect that to be visible on the whole screen, not just just the top.

If I could try a different sync source, I'd certainly do it! Here are the instructions for the component board: http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/component/

It doesn't look like the component board gets any sync signal, just R, G, B, +5v, and a ground. I've got Y going directly to the component socket as the instructions call for.

I just took a close look at the video in composite and s-video again. It seems like it's doing the same behavior with the flickering on those two as well, but it's not nearly as noticeable. Could a bad connection on one of PPU pins cause something like this? This is my first project like this, so I'm really just guessing.


Component video gets its sync from the green (Y or Luma) cable. Pretty much the same Luma as in S-Video. The way that the component board is connected straight from the encoder, I dont see how you could get a different sync. If you had the old board, you could have run a wire from the Y on the NESRGB to the green on the component board (that is, if they arent the same already-- they probably are).

Have you tried the RGB out? Perhaps through an external component transcoder? That way you have several sync signals to choose from.

Are you going straight into your set or through some sort of component switch? My problem only occured with going through an auto-sensing SCART switch. If not, then perhaps its your TV that doesnt like something in the sync signal, much like the Keene. Can you try it on a different TV to see if you still have the problem?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:33 am 


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I have it going through an Audio Authority 1154B component switch, but I hooked it directly to the TV to troubleshoot. I get the same jail bars and flickering no matter how it's hooked up.

A straight RGB connection is a good idea. Unfortunately, I don't have an RGB cable or anything that could accept the input even if I did.

I did just now try the original composite from the side of the Nintendo. There is definitely flickering from there too. I don't remember getting that from the console before I did the mod, but it could be that I just didn't notice with as bad as it looks on an HD TV anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:01 am 


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Can you post a picture of how you mounted the NESRGB board in there? Along with your YPbPr add on and how you soldered the cables to the pads (the Pb, Pr, Gnd, and Y).


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:02 pm 


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PookaKnight wrote:

I did just now try the original composite from the side of the Nintendo. There is definitely flickering from there too. I don't remember getting that from the console before I did the mod, but it could be that I just didn't notice with as bad as it looks on an HD TV anyway.


My NES composite still shows some odd flickering too, especially at the top portion of the screen-- almost like the massive dot crawl of the NES is messing with the what the TV is trying to do with its internal scaler/deinterlacer.

This odd flickering coincides perfectly with the "shifting" Im see with RGB through the Keene. Odd thing is, I still get the flickering through composite without the Keene, but when switching to RGBs > Component without the Keene, its 100% perfect.

Im not sure my NES exhibited this "dot crawl" flickering on my plasma via composite before I installed the NESRGB. In order to tell, I'd need to borrow another "vanilla" NES and try it. It would be very interesting if there is indeed a difference. I know someone whom I may be able to borrow one from. I'll have to try it.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:02 am 



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If you get flickering or distortion at the top of the screen it is just a result of the non-standard timing of the NES video signal. Lots of new TVs can't handle it, especially on component video inputs.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:10 am 


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viletim wrote:
If you get flickering or distortion at the top of the screen it is just a result of the non-standard timing of the NES video signal. Lots of new TVs can't handle it, especially on component video inputs.


Are you speaking about composite video over the component inputs, that I was referring to, or component out of the NESRGB?

The strangest thing is that the on/off distortion I get at the top of the screen via composite looks like my sets scaler is struggling to de-interlace the signal every few seconds, even though its recognized as 240p. I dont understand how that could be a timing issue because RGB out is using the same timing, and its perfect on my set.

When going RGB>Component, without the Keene, the TV displays the entire screen beautifully, with zero distortion or flickering, regardless of what sync I use (though V gives jailbars). Ive concluded though, that the Keene and NES/NESRGB timing just dont play well together. Using PPUV for sync produces a "good enough" result for me, but its still got the same graphical shifting near the top of the screen if you look closely, just at a much lower level than with sync on Y or CS#. If you take the Keene out of the equation and its 100% perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:03 am 


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viletim wrote:
If you get flickering or distortion at the top of the screen it is just a result of the non-standard timing of the NES video signal. Lots of new TVs can't handle it, especially on component video inputs.

I've noticed it does this on the XRGB-3 as well so it's not just an issue with newer TVs.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:02 pm 


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Apollo- I assume you are using RGB through the XRGB, not composite?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:18 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
Apollo- I assume you are using RGB through the XRGB, not composite?

It had that issue across RGB, S-vid and composite video. And to clarify, I don't actually own an XRGB-3 (I have an XRGB-2 though); one of my modding customers (Sixfortyfive) sent it to me for testing and that's when I found that issue.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:43 pm 


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viletim wrote:
If you get flickering or distortion at the top of the screen it is just a result of the non-standard timing of the NES video signal. Lots of new TVs can't handle it, especially on component video inputs.

That actually puts my mind at ease quite a bit. Since I'm so new at this, I thought for sure it was a mistake on my part. Thank you for your response!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:39 pm 


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Just got my NESRGB installed and all solder joints are perfect and it looks beautiful. I went ahead and used right angle headers with crimped wires so I could change around certain installs of what I wanted to use for my video. I do have 2 extra PPU's and a multiout I harvested a long time ago from a SNES if anyone needs one. Some of the PPU's do need a fixing but nothing bad at all. I'll upload pictures, my phone's screen got destroyed the other day but I just got a new one in the mail today.

Anyways, I'll making my own Multiout to SCART cable along with a Multiout to Component cable and as well be compatible with the existing AV Multiout to Composite cable. All in All, the Multiout on the back of my NES will support 3 types of video output.

I still have a bunch of work to do. I'm currently modding my GBS8200 To accept SCART in where I'll be using the LM1881 to strip Composite Video down to Composite Sync (as well as use the Vertical Sync supplied from the LM1881). I've been doing alot of research in deciding if I should use a NAND gate as well (such as an 74HCT) to get pure Horizontal Sync as well so I can take the SCART to the GBS8200. Don't know if this is truly necessary but I'll do a prototype to see.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:43 am 


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All I have to do is just wire up the audio and it's finished...

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

..and the power LED


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:53 am 


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Cool. What pin header/pin/push/crimp molex-like connectors did you use?


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