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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:59 pm 



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 469
Location: Sydney, Australia
Skips wrote:
Also I had a problem with the sound at first, certain sounds were way too quiet as if the sound channels were improperly balanced (Mario 3 sounded pretty bad). I later came to find out that my power PCB was labeled wrong. I ended up having to run CPU pin 1 to the CPU Pin 2 pad and CPU pin 2 to the CPU Pin 1 pad. Once I did that it sounded perfectly. I am not sure what was up with that because the labels were in the same place as Tim's Tutorial. It is OK thought, once I figured out what was up I got it working with only a minor inconvenience (and no I did not just wire them to the wrong place, I triple checked it to make sure it was not just a brain fart).


The labels are transposed on the silkscreen. Good job spotting it!

I don't know how I managed to bugger that up... I'll put a note about it in the installation guide and send an email to everybody who's bought one so far.

Skips wrote:
One thing people also need to be aware of is the install instructions will not work with a GPM-02 Famicom. The kit should work but it does take a bit of a different way of doing it than what Tim shows in his instructions.


I'll make an installation guide for the newer Famicom board layout next week (if I get time).

RGB32E wrote:
Oooooooh.... I knew something didn't sound quite right. I'll have to swap the two CPU audio pins soon. Did Tim label the 45/46 pins correctly on the PA PCB? I found it interesting that both required connections despite having to cut the trace to pin 45. Seems like 45/46 are both mixed regardless of expansion audio - possibly for active noise cancellation? When I tried disconnecting 45 from the PA and played a non expansion audio cart I noticed a significant amount of noise on the output!


These are correct. You will really notice it if you mix them up.

Pin 45 is connected to a low impedance bias voltage. Basically, it puts silence into the input. Without it, you will hear the sound of the data bus coupled into pin 46 from the parasitic capacitance.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:28 pm 


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Posts: 87
I have GPM-02 Famicom and I'm in a half way of modding it.

My technical and reviewing skills are not outstanding, but I'll try to document everything as good as I can.
(If I'll figure out how to manage additional board. And if I didn't burn anything, 'cause desoldering PPU was a real pain :D )

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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:15 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 1201
looks like you have a workshop going there. If your planning to do more mods i definately reccomend getting a hakko fr-300 or the older 808 desoldering tool.

It makes taking the ppu out about as easy as soldering it in.

I really dont know why i waited so long to get one.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:47 pm 


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mvsfan wrote:
i definately reccomend getting a hakko fr-300 or the older 808 desoldering tool. It makes taking the ppu out about as easy as soldering it in. I really dont know why i waited so long to get one.


Thanks! I thought of buying desoldering gun but I was run out of money at the moment, and got one of that cheap-ass desoldering irons. I'll definitely grab one later.

viletim wrote:
I'll make an installation guide for the newer Famicom board layout next week (if I get time).


Image

Image

Well, I'm stuck :D Unlike the GPM-01, this motherboard is connected with powerboard through 4 pins: V, A, In and VCC Out. I hope it is just question of figuring out right connection points. Is there any easy/fast way to describe it? Can't wait to finish.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:42 pm 



Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Posts: 404
604_degrees wrote:
mvsfan wrote:
i definately reccomend getting a hakko fr-300 or the older 808 desoldering tool. It makes taking the ppu out about as easy as soldering it in. I really dont know why i waited so long to get one.


Thanks! I thought of buying desoldering gun but I was run out of money at the moment, and got one of that cheap-ass desoldering irons. I'll definitely grab one later.

viletim wrote:
I'll make an installation guide for the newer Famicom board layout next week (if I get time).


Image

Image

Well, I'm stuck :D Unlike the GPM-01, this motherboard is connected with powerboard through 4 pins: V, A, In and VCC Out. I hope it is just question of figuring out right connection points. Is there any easy/fast way to describe it? Can't wait to finish.


To connect the PA board to the GPM-02 you will need to power the Famicom on before removing the power switch and RF box and use your multilimeter to find a place on the Famicom PCB that you can connect the PA board's 5v pads to. Pin 1 on the PPU or CPU and pins 31 or 30 on the cartridge connector are some places you can connect the 5v line. You can connect the ground pads to the Famicom PCB where the outer metal part of the RF box itself connects to the Famicom PCB (those two big solder joints). You will also need to connect longer wires to the power switch and run them back to the PA board as Tim's current instructions show. Pin 45 is also masked on this version of the Famicom so the easiest way to disconnect pin 45 is to find and desolder the 100k resistor. It should be labeled on the PCB and is the only 100k resistor. On my model it is by the CPU however I can not remember where it is located on the GPM-02.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:25 pm 


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Skips wrote:
To connect the PA board to the GPM-02 you will need to power the Famicom on before removing the power switch and RF box and use your multilimeter to find a place on the Famicom PCB that you can connect the PA board's 5v pads to. Pin 1 on the PPU or CPU and pins 31 or 30 on the cartridge connector are some places you can connect the 5v line. You can connect the ground pads to the Famicom PCB where the outer metal part of the RF box itself connects to the Famicom PCB (those two big solder joints). You will also need to connect longer wires to the power switch and run them back to the PA board as Tim's current instructions show. Pin 45 is also masked on this version of the Famicom so the easiest way to disconnect pin 45 is to find and desolder the 100k resistor. It should be labeled on the PCB and is the only 100k resistor. On my model it is by the CPU however I can not remember where it is located on the GPM-02.


Rad! I was confused by these two strange unused wires on the older board ribbon cable. Anyway, thanks a lot, I'll it try tonight.
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Last edited by 604_degrees on Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:25 pm 



Joined: 07 Feb 2014
Posts: 110
That is some godawful industrial soldering right there. It actually reminds me of the soldering job on my Atari 2600 rather than something put out by Nintendo. I've never opened up an original Famicom before, but my many Nintendos and my AV Fami all look much cleaner than that. Is that typical of early-model Famis?
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:52 pm 



Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Posts: 404
TheRetromancer wrote:
That is some godawful industrial soldering right there. It actually reminds me of the soldering job on my Atari 2600 rather than something put out by Nintendo. I've never opened up an original Famicom before, but my many Nintendos and my AV Fami all look much cleaner than that. Is that typical of early-model Famis?


The GPM-02 that was posted by 604 is actually from around 1989 so its a pretty late model for a Famicom (Older models had the ribbon cable, blue cartridge connector, and a smaller PCB). The ugly ass solder joints are pretty common on these models. The AV Famicom was a pretty late revision of the Famicom (1993) and continued being manufactured until around 2002-2003 so it is going to be a heck of a lot cleaner looking than the original Famicom systems. But yes, it is typical of that specific model of the Famicom. Most GPM-02's I have worked on looked god awful like that.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:57 am 


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Posts: 87
Well, i've finished everything but the result is weird.

When I power the Famicom on, TV immediately detects Scart RGB input, lighting up blank black screen, but after a second screen turns off. (2 or 3 times screen was covered by barely visible yellow noise but now I don't see it anymore.) Palette LED is working OK; there is no sound at all. Doublechecked every step a few times, nothing suspicious.

I was following Tim's instructions and has everything running as it was described, except that issue with my newer board. I hooked up GND channels of the PA board to those big ground pins left from RF shielding, and soldered +5V channels to the 21 PPU pin, 21 GPU pin and 31 cartridge slot pin. Multimeter is picking up +5.01VDC on all three pins.

I didn't find the 100K resistor mentioned by Skips, but the 45th pin of the cartridge slot had continuity with 43K R7. I saw some comments about Nintendo messed it up so it is probably the one I need, but anyway, Famicom doesn't work no matter is it soldered in or not.

I run out of clues:(
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:11 am 


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Location: San Jose, CA
604_degrees wrote:
and soldered +5V channels to the 21 PPU pin, 21 GPU pin

Uhh pin 21 is the video output for the PPU and D7 for the CPU. Pin 40 is 5V for both chips, hopefully you haven't killed anything this way.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:28 am 


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ApolloBoy wrote:
604_degrees wrote:
and soldered +5V channels to the 21 PPU pin, 21 GPU pin

Uhh pin 21 is the video output for the PPU and D7 for the CPU. Pin 40 is 5V for both chips, hopefully you haven't killed anything this way.


Maybe I messed up pin numbers? I mean these two:

Image
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:59 am 



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 469
Location: Sydney, Australia
The pins from the Famicom power/RF board labelled V and A are video and audio. You can ignore those. The VCC.OUT is the +5V power supply. You can connect the +5V line from the FAMICOM-PA board here, but you'll need to jumper the points of the original power switch. I don't know what the pin labelled IN is for. It seems to be related to the TV/Game switch.

Remember to connect the ground! Originally this was done by the metal shield.

TheRetromancer wrote:
That is some godawful industrial soldering right there. It actually reminds me of the soldering job on my Atari 2600 rather than something put out by Nintendo. I've never opened up an original Famicom before, but my many Nintendos and my AV Fami all look much cleaner than that. Is that typical of early-model Famis?


The two boards in the Famicom are each wave soldered, but they must be hand soldered when they are joined together. The soldering might not be so good on the metal tabs because they do a good job of extracting the heat. My unit looks good, though.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:40 am 



Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Posts: 404
604_degrees wrote:
ApolloBoy wrote:
604_degrees wrote:
and soldered +5V channels to the 21 PPU pin, 21 GPU pin

Uhh pin 21 is the video output for the PPU and D7 for the CPU. Pin 40 is 5V for both chips, hopefully you haven't killed anything this way.


Maybe I messed up pin numbers? I mean these two:

Image



Those circled pins are pin 40 not 21. As Apolloboy said, pin 40 is 5v. I also forgot that the GPM-02 had the fucked up expanded audio like the AV-Famicom. Sorry about that. It is the 43k resistor that you need to remove.

Did you remember to set all the jumpers on the PA board AND the NESRGB PCB? First thing I would do is make sure you have the Jumpers set correctly on the PA board AND the NESRGB (J3 needs to be closed on the RGB kit itself). Also make damn sure you did not count the pins wrong on the cartridge slot. If you connected power to the wrong pin you can fry your system just after 10-30 seconds of it being powered on.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:12 am 


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I've doublechecked everything and things seems to be connected properly. Cartridge pins are OK, jumpers too, multimeter is picking up correct voltage and continuity here and there. But I don't know what to do because I'm unable to diagnose what's wrong. Is it CPU died for some reason? Or PPU was overheated during desoldering? Was the NESRGB killed by the static electricity, or some small trace or tiny electronic component worn somwhere? Is SCART cable OK and should I spent extra money on another Famicom and another NESRGB just to mess with them and figure out what's wrong? I have no idea. I'm terribly sorry for this whining, guys, but you are the only people who could give me some advice :D

viletim wrote:
You can connect the +5V line from the FAMICOM-PA board here, but you'll need to jumper the points of the original power switch. Remember to connect the ground!


Doing so instead of connecting to three different points doesn't change anything.

Also, putting cartridge and PPU chip in and out sometimes gives me some nice pictures:

Image
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:55 pm 



Joined: 22 Oct 2013
Posts: 404
604_degrees wrote:
I've doublechecked everything and things seems to be connected properly. Cartridge pins are OK, jumpers too, multimeter is picking up correct voltage and continuity here and there. But I don't know what to do because I'm unable to diagnose what's wrong. Is it CPU died for some reason? Or PPU was overheated during desoldering? Was the NESRGB killed by the static electricity, or some small trace or tiny electronic component worn somwhere? Is SCART cable OK and should I spent extra money on another Famicom and another NESRGB just to mess with them and figure out what's wrong? I have no idea. I'm terribly sorry for this whining, guys, but you are the only people who could give me some advice :D

viletim wrote:
You can connect the +5V line from the FAMICOM-PA board here, but you'll need to jumper the points of the original power switch. Remember to connect the ground!


Doing so instead of connecting to three different points doesn't change anything.

Also, putting cartridge and PPU chip in and out sometimes gives me some nice pictures:

Image


Assuming you did not connect 5v to the wrong place at any time I am leaning towards the PPU being dead to desoldering (you did say it gave you problems earlier) and or pins on the adapter/kit are not connected properly. Also, you did not install the adapter board upside down did you? It has to be oriented correctly otherwise it will not work. I would start by checking the kit for bad solder joints and if you installed the adapter correctly. After that id suggest trying to find someone with a replacement PPU. The kit is socketed so you could just drop the new one right in.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now (semi-OT)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:19 pm 


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Posts: 1400
Interesting soldering film from 1980! :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... gcPxdnjwt4


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now (semi-OT)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:13 pm 


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Interesting, I'll have a look. Somewhere, I think at one of the vintage Tektronix history sites like http://www.vintagetek.org/ there was a collection of some old videos, which might be on YouTube. One of these showed some early soldering work being done, somewhere between the 1950s-1970s, with ungoggled lady technicians peering closely by the iron :shock: As somebody pointed out, if anything splashed you could lose an eye!


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:08 am 



Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Posts: 207
Location: Philly Area
On the US top loader, where are people tapping audio from? I'm tapping from the third pin of the RF box (removed) and it's very noisy.

Edit: Ignore. I tapped from CPU1 and 2 thru NESRGB and out. Sounds fucking brilliant. Do not use the stock audio on the top loader.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:15 am 


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daskrabs wrote:
On the US top loader, where are people tapping audio from? I'm tapping from the third pin of the RF box (removed) and it's very noisy.

Edit: Ignore. I tapped from CPU1 and 2 thru NESRGB and out. Sounds fucking brilliant. Do not use the stock audio on the top loader.


I don't believe anyone ever does. :)
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:45 pm 



Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Posts: 207
Location: Philly Area
A quick PSA for non-expert solderers like me: When attempting to desolder the PPU, unless you have pro desoldering tools, you will likely need both a desoldering bulb-like tool and a desoldering braid. The former would be used thusly: add a little bit of new solder to each of the pins on the underside of the PPU first, then use your bulb/sucker to remove the old solder from each pin. There will inevitably be a few pins that will not desolder. Repeat the process as needed. You can use your desoldering braid on these as needed as well. Also, there will likely be some solder left on the top side of the chip on some pins, preventing removal. Use your braid on this, but be very careful, as some FC/NES boards have traces that run very close to the PPU and are easily severed. Speaking from experience here. Use your braid gingerly on the stubborn pins. The combination of a braid and bulb should free the PPU without much hassle. I feel that both are necessary in the absence of pro desoldering tools.

Also, if you're using Helder's 3D printed multiout on your install, make sure that you pay close attention to the pin numbers, as they're difficult to read and should be written down or similar. The solder points are very small, and you'll want to make a nice pad on each before soldering lines. It's easy to flow one pin into the other if you're not careful. The jack itself is a very tight fit for most cables.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:34 pm 


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Voultar wrote:
daskrabs wrote:
On the US top loader, where are people tapping audio from? I'm tapping from the third pin of the RF box (removed) and it's very noisy.

Edit: Ignore. I tapped from CPU1 and 2 thru NESRGB and out. Sounds fucking brilliant. Do not use the stock audio on the top loader.


I don't believe anyone ever does. :)


I do :? The sound directly from the CPU sounds nothing like the NES is supposed to. It's extremely clean, but also lacks any depth IMO :)


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:01 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
Voultar wrote:
daskrabs wrote:
On the US top loader, where are people tapping audio from? I'm tapping from the third pin of the RF box (removed) and it's very noisy.

Edit: Ignore. I tapped from CPU1 and 2 thru NESRGB and out. Sounds fucking brilliant. Do not use the stock audio on the top loader.


I don't believe anyone ever does. :)


I do :? The sound directly from the CPU sounds nothing like the NES is supposed to. It's extremely clean, but also lacks any depth IMO :)


I couldn't disagree more! I love the clean audio from the US NES systems with the NESRGB audio circuit! Perhaps you should switch back to an RF connection with a de-modulator. :wink:

One interesting thing I've noticed with US NES systems (both front and top loading without expansion wired) is that there are >20kHz components in the audio. I discovered this when I recorded several titles at 32-bit/96kHz and ran a plot spectrum in Audacity. I'm wondering if some sort of LPF is in order to tame the >20kHz data. Viletim?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:06 pm 



Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 393
daskrabs wrote:
A quick PSA for non-expert solderers like me: When attempting to desolder the PPU, unless you have pro desoldering tools, you will likely need both a desoldering bulb-like tool and a desoldering braid. The former would be used thusly: add a little bit of new solder to each of the pins on the underside of the PPU first, then use your bulb/sucker to remove the old solder from each pin. There will inevitably be a few pins that will not desolder. Repeat the process as needed. You can use your desoldering braid on these as needed as well. Also, there will likely be some solder left on the top side of the chip on some pins, preventing removal. Use your braid on this, but be very careful, as some FC/NES boards have traces that run very close to the PPU and are easily severed. Speaking from experience here. Use your braid gingerly on the stubborn pins. The combination of a braid and bulb should free the PPU without much hassle. I feel that both are necessary in the absence of pro desoldering tools.

Also, if you're using Helder's 3D printed multiout on your install, make sure that you pay close attention to the pin numbers, as they're difficult to read and should be written down or similar. The solder points are very small, and you'll want to make a nice pad on each before soldering lines. It's easy to flow one pin into the other if you're not careful. The jack itself is a very tight fit for most cables.


You'd be surprised how easy it was to remove the PPU with this: http://www.radioshack.com/radioshack-45 ... MqgmkIbBE4

No braid needed, at least in my experience. Maybe add a bit of new solder to help heat up the old solder.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:38 pm 



Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Posts: 207
Location: Philly Area
eightbitminiboss wrote:

You'd be surprised how easy it was to remove the PPU with this: http://www.radioshack.com/radioshack-45 ... MqgmkIbBE4

No braid needed, at least in my experience. Maybe add a bit of new solder to help heat up the old solder.


That's actually what I used. Works well, but in my experience, not perfectly.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:44 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 1201
I used that solder bulb iron before i had an Fr-300.

that thing really doesnt get hot enough and tends to leave a small amount of solder on the pins. just enough to make taking the ppu out a pain.

its ok if you dont solder often.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:38 am 


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Guys, anyone using a Keene SCART Commander switch with your NESRGB modded console? Im having a problem I made a thread about here.

Can someone please check to see if this issue is present if you have one of these Keenes?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:03 pm 


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ApolloBoy wrote:
I have to wonder now, is there anyone else aside from Skips, RGB32E and myself who got the Fami kit?


If me, I bought 2, for me and a friend.
I did not still have time to put myself in it.
In addition, I have NES french (with péritel) to make with PlayChoice 10.
I have a lot of things to do :roll:

I have not unsoldering iron, I plan to use desoldering wick, what do you think about it?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:39 pm 


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Looks like install posts are starting to dwindle.

Here's a commission that I finished today:

Image

Image

Image

Image


I didn't realize my camera was blurry in some of these shots until everything was buttoned back up. Bleh.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:00 pm 



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Greetings Guys! I have just successfully finished all the soldering for my toaster nes, and now the next step is installing all the connectors onto the case. Along with the NESRGB, I also purchased Tim's SCART adapter. It's nice, but I rather implement a good old fashioned SNES multi-out attached to my SNES/N64 scart cable.

Now here are my questions: After reading this thread, my mind is a little blown..reproduction multiouts, capacitors in the scart cable, and more! Could someone clarify if I need to modify the scart connector or the multi-out from a snes (i.e, add resistors, remove capacitors, etc) to properly use with nesrgb? This is the only part I'm finding confusing..

-Dave


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:51 pm 


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Has anyone tried using sync on Luma/Y with the NESRGB? Im considering moving it from C Sync as my Keene Scart Commander switch seems to cause a slight jitter in the picture-- if I bypass the Keene the picture is immaculate. Not sure that would even help, but considering it. Please let me know if anyone has used sync on Y with any success.


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