NESRGB board available now

[lechu]

I was wondering, did anyone ever attempt passing component out the Nintendo MultiAV port?

Makes more sense to me to use a Wii multi-out for this purpose, or even a playstation one.

Could just wait for HDRetrovision to finish their SNES component cables.

[BONKERS]

I was wondering, did anyone ever attempt passing component out the Nintendo MultiAV port?

Makes more sense to me to use a Wii multi-out for this purpose, or even a playstation one.

Could just wait for HDRetrovision to finish their SNES component cables.

That would transcode the RGB though, not much point when you have the Component board for the NESRGB

[thebeautifulones]

I noticed that there's noise on my AV Famicom that coincides with what's happening on screen, but it only happens once the console has warmed up for about 3-15 minutes. Once it's cooled back down the noise is gone. Is this happening to anyone else? An easy way to test it is to turn your volume up fairly high, wait for the heatsink/shield to get warm, and then start up Rockman 2; if you have the same problem that I'm having the noise will usually begin when the second white text comes up ("Capcom"). It sounds similar to when you rub a microphone.

Any thoughts on how to solve it? I'm considering adding thermal compound to the 7805; adding another 7805, the way it's typically done in the front loader installation; or replacing the 7805. I don't even know that the regulator has anything to do with it, so any advice is appreciated.

[Guspaz]

That would transcode the RGB though, not much point when you have the Component board for the NESRGB

The NESRGB component board is doing the same thing (transcoding RGB to PbPr), so it doesn't seem to offer any advantage. The component cables would be easier (no install, no soldering, no wiring up sockets) and maintain flexibility: still have the choice of doing either RGB or component based on cable used. If you wire in the NESRGB component board, you're locked into component unless you're adding even more connectors to the NES.

[RGB32E]

That would transcode the RGB though, not much point when you have the Component board for the NESRGB

The NESRGB component board is doing the same thing (transcoding RGB to PbPr), so it doesn't seem to offer any advantage. The component cables would be easier (no install, no soldering, no wiring up sockets) and maintain flexibility: still have the choice of doing either RGB or component based on cable used. If you wire in the NESRGB component board, you're locked into component unless you're adding even more connectors to the NES.

The NESRGB-COMPONENT offers better picture quality compared to an external solution. I posted a comparison between the N-C and Kramer FC-14 some pages back and the N-C has the edge. The N-C has a shorter signal path and is specifically optimized for the NESRGB.

It will be interesting to see how the retro vision cables turn out, but it's taking them forever to ship, especially when their product might have actually been useful a decade ago! Perhaps Ste is too busy advising Micomsoft on their products...

Perhaps you could give options more thought. If anything, one could route RGB and component through a switch before feeding it to the output connector, or even provide an internal header swapping option, or just switching PbPr and B/R and keeping luma on it's original pin.

[mvsfan]

I just built an Nesrgb console with one of Tims component add on boards for myself.

I have to say that the component add in board Produces a way better picture than the same NES

Going through my csy2100 clone. On the csy2100 the colors look washed out and no amount of adjusting fixes it. on the component add on board the colors are bold and sharp like RGB.

It almost looks as good as my PVM. I have a hard time seeing a difference.

My Jvc tv really shines with the NES.

With that said, Im thinking about using the component add on board in other systems like my SNES because it looks so much better than the csy. does anyone have experience with that? does it work good? are any extra component required?

[RGB32E]

With that said, Im thinking about using the component add on board in other systems like my SNES because it looks so much better than the csy. does anyone have experience with that? does it work good? are any extra component required?

Yes, you can use the N-C on any console with a CXA1645, CXA2075, BH7236AF, BA6595F (SNES S-RGB), BA6596F (SNES S-RGB A) or equivalent. So, later rev SNES (all 1CHIPs), later rev Genesis 2 (short PCB), all Genesis 3, all Sega Saturns, and others can utilize the N-C. For systems that already wire luma to an output connector, you wouldn't even have to add the 75 ohm + 220uF capacitor! If you took an additional step of replacing the CXA1145P found in the SMS, Genesis 1, Neo Geo AES, and the like with a CXA1645/2075 or equivalent, you could use the N-C on those too!

And yes, I've installed a N-C in a SNES mini for kicks and it looked good to me!

[Guspaz]

I'm not sure that I'd risk it, because the component board derives Pb and Pr from RGB, but uses luma from the NESRGB itself. This works fine for the NESRGB where the luma is derived from the RGB directly and he knows in advance what the signal levels will be, but in the SNES the board would be calculating luma from the RGB to generate Pb and Pr, but then you'd be using the SNES luma, which may not be exactly the same as what the NESRGB component board was using.

To explain it another way, in YPbPr, you calculate it from RGB like this:

Y = 0.2126 R + 0.7152 G + 0.0722 B
Pb = B - Y
Pr = R - Y

If the SNES calculates Y differently from the NESRGB board, then it might look off. But it might also look fine, you'd need to test it. But the mod seems kind of pointless when you could just use the HDR cables to achieve the same thing, and not have the potential luma mismatch (those cables calculate luma from RGB instead of using it directly from the SNES, likely to avoid this exact problem).

The comments about the NESRGB approach having a shorter signal path is kind of iffy: either way you're going through a 6 foot cable, converting RGB to component a few inches down a shielded cable shouldn't matter. Likely the reason it does better than the CSY2100 clone is a combination of the NESRGB board being specifically designed against the NESRGB itself, and due to the CSY2100 not being all that good in the first place. I'd argue that judgement should be reserved until the HDR cables are actually available.

[leonk]

actually length very much matters. we are talking analog signal here (not digital). cable length, cable shielding, quality of components all play a role. if the component converter is inside the NES you just cut an entire 4' cable from the chain.

Personally, I still dont see why people bother with component when it's clear that RGB or HDMI is where this hobby is headed. 5-10 years down the road I think some people would regret the extra effort. I think over the next few years we're going to get more and more RGB and HDMI solutions for less and less.

[Guspaz]

I did state in my post that it might work fine and that he'd have to try it out for themselves, and the fact that you're calling out specific encoder chips validates the concerns that I raised. But it's a lot of work to go to instead of just plugging a cable right into the SNES, so it doesn't really make any sense to do that mod on a SNES.

actually length very much matters. we are talking analog signal here (not digital). cable length, cable shielding, quality of components all play a role. if the component converter is inside the NES you just cut an entire 4' cable from the chain.

You're not eliminating any cable from the chain, if we're talking about putting the converter in the SNES versus using the HDR cables, certainly not 4 feet. You're just putting the converter a few inches down a shielded cable instead before the start of the cable. If the overall cable length is going to be the same either way, there shouldn't be much difference.

Personally, I still dont see why people bother with component when it's clear that RGB or HDMI is where this hobby is headed. 5-10 years down the road I think some people would regret the extra effort. I think over the next few years we're going to get more and more RGB and HDMI solutions for less and less.

At the moment, RGB is inaccessible to most people, and HDMI requires expensive and often laggy converters, and people have devices that support neither RGB or HDMI.

An RGB-to-HDMI upscaler that had no lag, worked well with the SNES, and cost $100? That'd be a great option. But it doesn't exist yet. OSSC is the closest we've come so far, but it's still not cheap, still not the most user-friendly thing (requires tweaking the sampling rate and changing settings for different consoles), and apparently has issues with the SNES. Hopefully some of that will get resolved by firmware updates.

Ultimately we may end up with HDMI mods installed directly into consoles being the ideal approach. It already seems to be the best option for the NES, N64, and GameCube. From what I've read, SNES is far trickier, and the choices seem to either be to convert analog RGB to HDMI directly inside the console (benefiting from the parameters of the conversion targeting the specific console and its quirks), or re-implement most of the SNES hardware on an FPGA (far more than the NES, where only the PPU got re-implemented for the Hi-Def NES). Neither option is optimal, but it may be all that exists.

[CkRtech]

Personally, I still dont see why people bother with component when it's clear that RGB or HDMI is where this hobby is headed.

Simplicity and affordability for casual retro gamers - and that is basically what the HD Retrovision guys are going after. I am most likely going to gift some modded consoles to friends/family this year, and I want to give them something that they can just plug and play (and I already know about their TV's 240p abilities). The upscaler option is an expensive one, and many would rather shrug off the cost and complexity and stick to "yellow plug is fine" regardless of how ugly it is.

Another way to put it - component is a gateway drug.

[mvsfan]

well, the advantage to using Tims component board in other systems would be that the HD retrovision cables are not out yet.
they are also probably going to be expensive. the board isnt and I have quite a few extra rca component cables here.

also the component board looks perfect. I dont know how the cables will stack up.

I also have a question about the Nesrgb. Does it still have the programming to use an on on on switch or was it taken out when the nesrgb started using the new switch?

I want to wire this one so the rf still works but i need 2 toggle switches because i dont want to use the slider.

1 to control the 3 palettes 1 to turn the nesrgb off.

[Guspaz]

This is true, it's available now and the HDR cables aren't. But since the HDR cables are in the middle of their production run, it's not likely to matter much.

In terms of price, the Kickstarter price for the cables was $35 USD. The final price may differ, but all signs point to them being quite reasonably priced. The cost of the NES RGB component board plus a good set of component cables isn't that much cheaper, and certainly requires a lot more effort.

But it's a fair point that the component board is a known quantity, while the HDR cables are not. Reviews of prototypes indicated quality was excellent, but we'll have to wait for the final version to be out for the final word.

[mvsfan]

rgb32e can i ask what the difference is between the cxa1145 and the cxa1645 besides the number of pins and pinout?

They both Generate S-Video and RGB. on the surface it looks like it would work with either chip.

[leonk]

Simplicity and affordability for casual retro gamers - and that is basically what the HD Retrovision guys are going after. I am most likely going to gift some modded consoles to friends/family this year, and I want to give them something that they can just plug and play

If that's what you want to do this year, give them a Retron 5.

I stand behind my comment. NES, N64 and GC started it. I can see over the next few years more and more HDMI mods coming out for all the other consoles. It's going to get cheaper and it's going to be super easy to use. The Hi Def NES already proved that you just plug HDMI cable and play. If you're adventurous, get into the menu and start tweaking.

[leonk]

The cost of the NES RGB component board plus a good set of component cables isn't that much cheaper, and certainly requires a lot more effort.

??? Have you ever installed Tim's component board?

Based on my personal experience installing many of them, there is no effort to install the component board. It's drilling 1 hole! Tim gives you the 3.5mm to component breakout cable!

[RGB32E]

rgb32e can i ask what the difference is between the cxa1145 and the cxa1645 besides the number of pins and pinout?

They both Generate S-Video and RGB. on the surface it looks like it would work with either chip.

You could start by comparing the datasheets! The CXA1145 and it's equivalents lack 75 ohm drivers for luma and chroma, so it's misleading to state that they actually provide S-Video output. The Y/C in/out on the 1145 is intended for external filters, not to drive a signal over a cable! The CXA1645 and later moved these filters internally and added proper 75 ohm drivers for S-Video output. The various piss poor quality S-Video mods for the CXA1145 out in the wild all fail to compare in quality to RGB encoders with 75 ohm drivers for luma and chroma. So, while one could still use the N-C with a CXA1145 to generate PbPr signals, there's no suitable luma output, even with adding one of the various janky buffer circuits floating around the web.

[CkRtech]

If that's what you want to do this year, give them a Retron 5.

Some of them already have their console of choice and just need a minor mod or a cable to keep going. Not to mention that for the gifting, I already have spare consoles available.

I stand behind my comment. NES, N64 and GC started it. I can see over the next few years more and more HDMI mods coming out for all the other consoles. It's going to get cheaper and it's going to be super easy to use. The Hi Def NES already proved that you just plug HDMI cable and play. If you're adventurous, get into the menu and start tweaking.

I understand, but I think we are looking at a lot more development, bug tweaking, software updates via firmware, etc before that stuff has full penetration. Not to mention the fact that the things cost a good deal of money. Tim's board is like $16 USD right now! Component is a very viable option.

[brandonx76]

Hey all - hope I could ask some questions, regarding NESRGB. I recently installed successfully, after alot of turmoil (nuked my original AV/Famicom CPU/PPU somewhere along the way of checking connectivity with a multimeter, and replaced them both from a front loader on ebay). It's working nice now, but..I immediately noticed playing Castlevania 3 Japanese the enhanced sound is barely audible for some of the enhanced audio.

I'm enjoying the NESRGB via framemeister, and I even have an Analogue NT which runs HiDef NES, but I was expecting to have better audio than what I'm getting out of my AV/Famicom with NES RGB. The Scanlines are good however, compared to whatever is going on with HiDefNes.

I am also interested in running some games via EverDriveN8. I read something to the effect that I may want to connect or wire things between CPU differently but I'm not sure what specifically or what compatability issues I may run into with an Everdrive?

I've had some conversations with Tim, but trying to limit hitting him up with some of these one-offs. Lot of great info on this thread, but not sure it's specifically stated already regarding the audio enhancements etc (stereo or other)

Ok, thanks all

[mvsfan]

Thanks, Rgb32E. I didnt pick up on why it doesnt work until you explained it.

I didnt realize that the 1145 wasnt designed to carry a signal over a cable.

[leonk]

Are you kidding me? If somebody has a SNES and has no soldering experience or soldering equipment, are you honestly going to argue that there is "no effort to install" the component board?

Dude. Relax. You're in ***THE*** ultimate NESRGB thread on the entire Internet. Go back the 100+ pages. It's mostly guys that have the skills to install the NESRGB talking here. If you want to talk external component on SNES, please take it to another thread.

If you have anything to contribute to the NESRGB ... please do so. I'm always looking for better technique to improve my craft.

P.S. Another day, another NESRGB install. I just completed another Famicom AV install for a customer.

[leonk]

Hey all - hope I could ask some questions, regarding NESRGB. I recently installed successfully, after alot of turmoil (nuked my original AV/Famicom CPU/PPU somewhere along the way of checking connectivity with a multimeter, and replaced them both from a front loader on ebay). It's working nice now, but..I immediately noticed playing Castlevania 3 Japanese the enhanced sound is barely audible for some of the enhanced audio.

So how did you wire the audio? Did you leave it stock, or did you run it to through the amplifier on the NESRGB? And if so, how?

[mvsfan]

did you use Too strong of a resistor on the expansion sound wire?

[brandonx76]

Hey all - hope I could ask some questions, regarding NESRGB. I recently installed successfully, after alot of turmoil (nuked my original AV/Famicom CPU/PPU somewhere along the way of checking connectivity with a multimeter, and replaced them both from a front loader on ebay). It's working nice now, but..I immediately noticed playing Castlevania 3 Japanese the enhanced sound is barely audible for some of the enhanced audio.

So how did you wire the audio? Did you leave it stock, or did you run it to through the amplifier on the NESRGB? And if so, how?

I actually got a bit more info from another forum - my problem was not really an NESRGB issue, this is how the standard audio on a Famicom A/V apparently sounds. You can utilize the audio amp on the NESRGB but you still have to add some modifications. A very nice poster on this forum gave me some insight, (see: http://krikzz.com/forum/index.php?topic=5046.0) and I'm about to embark on building a secondary mod to get proper enhanced cart audio from actual carts on a Famicom A/V. There's a slight change to this mod if you are primarily wanting to get enhanced audio off an Everdrive, however, apparently you can't have both proper sounding actual carts with enhanced audio, AND enhanced audio enabled on Everdrive. done to the same system, it's one or the other it seems.

[Asbrandt]

I actually got a bit more info from another forum - my problem was not really an NESRGB issue, this is how the standard audio on a Famicom A/V apparently sounds. You can utilize the audio amp on the NESRGB but you still have to add some modifications. A very nice poster on this forum gave me some insight, (see: http://krikzz.com/forum/index.php?topic=5046.0) and I'm about to embark on building a secondary mod to get proper enhanced cart audio from actual carts on a Famicom A/V. There's a slight change to this mod if you are primarily wanting to get enhanced audio off an Everdrive, however, apparently you can't have both proper sounding actual carts with enhanced audio, AND enhanced audio enabled on Everdrive. done to the same system, it's one or the other it seems.

This post here should help you out regarding handling both real cartridges and the Everdrive in the same system when using the NESRGB's audio amp.

Do note though that as I posted further down from the linked post, the capacitor added between pin 45 and ground caused expansion audio to be pulled down in real cartridges of Akumajou Densetsu and Just Breed.
The good news is that the pulldown resistor on the "real cartridge" setting seems to achieve the same goal of preventing the wire from becoming an antenna with non-expansion-audio games, so the capacitor can safely be omitted.

In my listening to the 3rd-party mapper files for 5B and VRC6 (Version with 75% volume on high, best matches the 5B one) I noted that 49k is just a touch not enough resistance, I've seen others recommend closer to 56k, but that complicates keeping the "real cartridge" setting at close to 100k.
Replacing R1 with 15k and R2 with 17.6k (16k + 1.6k in series) should yield the correct "real cartridge" level and 54k setting for the Everdrive setting, but I have not tested this yet.

[Guspaz]

I'm looking to do an NESRGB mod in the near future on a frontloader, but I'm still trying to figure out the cleanest way to get a multi-av connector on it. I want to gather up everything I need before starting. If it were a toploader, the 3D printed replacement part obviously works best, but the closest equivalent on the frontloader seems to require cutting a rectangle into the chassis for BuffaloWing's multi-av port. That's more invasive than I'd like, but more importantly, making that look good requires more precise filing than I'm confident (having never filed anything before) that I can do.

There's the NES-IO, which requires less cutting and replaces the RF/channel switch, which seems to look fantastic when installed, but it's really focused on the IGR stuff, which I don't have any desire for, and it looks like it's just meant for use with repurposed SNES multi-av ports rather than the 3D-printed ones.

Is there anything like the NES-IO that's just going to replace the RF box and nothing else? Like, without all of the extra stuff for IGR? Or some version that works with the 3D-printed multi AV ports? Or is my only real option just to bite the bullet and try really hard to file a perfect rectangle?

[leonk]

If you decide to use the NES-IO which sounds like the cleanest install, you will need to get the PCB fab'd and you do all the SMD mounting but you don't have to wire up the IGR circuit. Heck, you don't have to wire up the the dual LCD drivers (keeps those caps off). The circuit diagram is on GITHUB, download it, and see if you can understand how it works.

Also, the source code for the PIC is on GITHUB.. you can download it, modify the source to remove IGR, and compile you own PIC binaries. Keep in mind that the PIC for the NES-IO is a 14 pin SOIC component. You need to have a setup that can program these sort of IC's and you need to feel comfortable with soldering them to PCB's.

Personally, I found building the NES-IGR a lot of fun .. but I can see how someone can get into trouble if they don't have the right tools.

Your only other options are either 3D printed MultiAV port (if you don't want to rape a broken Nintendo console) or install the port that comes with the kit (same port as found on XRGB Mini) but it's RGB video only.

[Guspaz]

I took a look at the source, and it looks like all the PIC does other than IGR is support palette changing with long holds on the reset. I was more thinking about just locking the NESRGB to the first palette and being done with it: I don't have much interest in doing anything but the regular palette anyhow.

My electronics knowledge is limited, so looking at the circuit diagram isn't getting me very far (doesn't help that this Gerber viewer doesn't seem to even draw out traces, just lots of little labels where traces should be).

I guess my best bet then is the 3D printed port with some drilling and filing, or the Mini-DIN connector (with buying a bunch of drill bits).

[borti4938]

I took a look at the source, and it looks like all the PIC does other than IGR is support palette changing with long holds on the reset. I was more thinking about just locking the NESRGB to the first palette and being done with it: I don't have much interest in doing anything but the regular palette anyhow.

It's not a problem to install the NES-I/O without the whole IGR stuff. If some want's to do so, it is just connecting GND and the video line (next to the huge pin header) to the NES-I/O. All other stuff can be left untouched (also the two ICs on the PCB are not needed).

I also understand that the replacement SNES-MultiAV-style connector would be great to be supported but I don't have such a connector to fit it. So it's open to anyone who will include this connector to the design.

[Guspaz]

It's not a problem to install the NES-I/O without the whole IGR stuff. If some want's to do so, it is just connecting GND and the video line (next to the huge pin header) to the NES-I/O. All other stuff can be left untouched (also the two ICs on the PCB are not needed).

I also understand that the replacement SNES-MultiAV-style connector would be great to be supported but I don't have such a connector to fit it. So it's open to anyone who will include this connector to the design.

I think the power stuff would still be needed, though, right? Because the NES-I/O would be displacing the original power circuitry. Although I think your board is designed for DC input, so running that through a 7805 would probably be enough? Anyhow, the connector option would be difficult for me to source, so I think the NES-I/O might not be the right option for me.