NESRGB board available now

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viletim
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by viletim »

Pasky wrote:Pretty sure he meant NES Powerpak not retropak. There is also an expansion audio mod to get expansion audio with it.
Oh, right. I have no idea about it. I didn't go out of my way to support it (like I did with the Everdrive) because it's not a Famicom cartridge.
TheRetromancer
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TheRetromancer »

CkRtech wrote:Image
I always like to make sure my stuff is labeled accurately. With the new power/output board, that sticker no longer holds true. I'd love to make a new one for public use if someone would be kind enough to give me the dimensions of that sticker.

Just so I'm clear on the board, from left to right it is:

AC Adaptor - Audio Out - Everdrive Audio Switch - Video Out
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Pasky
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Pasky »

Nothing a simple labeler wouldn't do.

http://www.amazon.com/DYMO-LabelManager ... 005X9VZ70/
mvsfan
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by mvsfan »

The eject mechanism not working isnt really an issue for me. the famicom eject mechanism never worked that well to begin with.

the super nes and super famicom eject i find very useful on the other hand. its a much better design.

I also like the fact that this replacement power board fits where the original board was. no holes to drill. its a nice clean installation.

Great job Tim.

oh lastly this is unrelated but approximately when should we see the nesrgb component board show up? is it almost finished?
TheRetromancer
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TheRetromancer »

Pasky wrote:Nothing a simple labeler wouldn't do.

http://www.amazon.com/DYMO-LabelManager ... 005X9VZ70/
*wrinkles nose in disgust* Oh, that's just in bad taste, Pasky. I'm talking about creating a TRUE replacement label - identical font, spacing, design, and general appearance, not some nasty little DYMO printout. Some of us want our modwork to look as though it was factory made. It's a matter of pride.
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Zets13
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Zets13 »

The label thing on the back of the Famicom isn't a sticker, though I guess you could just placea sticker label on top of it.
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ApolloBoy
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by ApolloBoy »

Zets13 wrote:The label thing on the back of the Famicom isn't a sticker
Uhh yes it is
Zets13
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Zets13 »

Oh, I thought it was a metal plate thing.
Smashbro29
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Smashbro29 »

viletim wrote:The Famicom version of the NESRGB kit replaces the original audio mixing circuit. Some of my customers use the Everdrive and would like to hear the expansion audio sound as it was intended.
So the Everdrive is doing the work? From the page of the Everdrive N8 "Only Famicom can output expansion sound without modification. NES systems require modification to support this feature."

This makes it seem like the system does at least some of the work.
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ApolloBoy
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by ApolloBoy »

Smashbro29 wrote: So the Everdrive is doing the work?
No, what Tim is saying is that the NESRGB has its own audio mixing circuitry that replaces what was there on the original Famicom. The replacement board that comes with the Famicom adapter also comes with a switch that can compensate for the different audio level that the Everdrive has compared to real cartridges that use external audio.
Smashbro29
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Smashbro29 »

ApolloBoy wrote:
Smashbro29 wrote: So the Everdrive is doing the work?
No, what Tim is saying is that the NESRGB has its own audio mixing circuitry that replaces what was there on the original Famicom. The replacement board that comes with the Famicom adapter also comes with a switch that can compensate for the different audio level that the Everdrive has compared to real cartridges that use external audio.
Just to be clear, all the audio comes out of the video connector and/or the standalone audio jack right?
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bobrocks95
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by bobrocks95 »

viletim wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:Knew I'd flipped that around with something. Then the question is, can you repurpose the channel switch? Changing palettes on the controller sounds cool, but I won't ever be using the Everdrive (hyuck).
Repurpose...for what other purpose?
I was thinking maybe a 2-palette switch? Thinking about it, it's probably a LOT more work than it's worth, and less functional compared to the controller method to boot. Hindsight's 20/20, though as I said I won't ever be using the switch for an Everdrive.
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ms06fz
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by ms06fz »

leonk wrote:I'm a tad disappointed by the solution Tim suggested to follow for the Famicom. It's a total different direction from any other 8 bit Nintendo system:

- Svideo or RGB output - not both
- forces users to use his 8 pin DIN (can't use 3D printed multiAV port)
...
- removal of famicom eject button

I think if someone really wants famicom .. famicom AV might be the only solution. :(
There's less free space available in the original Famicom, unfortunately. To do an install in the same vein as the typical installs for NES or AV Famicom (using sockets and pin headers and an adapter board to put the NESRGB above the original location of the PPU) there's pretty much no place to put it except right where Tim put it, right in the way of the eject mechanism.

That's not to say there aren't other options: as I recall some people have installed NESRGB in the Famicom by leaving the PPU where it is, lifting some pins and using wires to connect the thru-holes on the mother board and the lifted pins to NESRGB. To go that route you'd need to lift the CPU data bus, the EXT0..3 lines, and possibly the composite video out (to limit potential sources of interference) and connect those through (in the case of the data bus) or simply to (in the case of the others) the NESRGB. Without a PPU mounted directly on it, the NESRGB board is pretty compact. IIRC it can be fit underneath the Famicom main board, in the bottom half of the console's shell.

I have an AV Fami, and I agree it goes really well with NESRGB. Using the multi-out connector is nice because it gets you everything you need - S-Video, audio, RGB, power... and you can use the "standard" cables. I agree it might have been nice if the new power/AV board were built to accommodate it... But it may not have been possible to accommodate both the multi-out and the mini-DIN as options - and as Tim mentioned those 3D printed connectors are expensive. (Even the cables are expensive, if you want good ones. You can buy a decent-quality mini-din S-video cable for under $5. But for a Nintendo-brand SNES S-video cable you're more in the $40 range minimum. Third-party cables are available for less of course but so many of them are just complete trash that you might as well just use composite anyway. The economical solution is to buy multiple Nintendo-brand SNES composite cables (relatively cheap, under $10 each), take them apart (the official ones can be disassembled) and rewire them to make S-video or other kinds of cables.

Mini-DIN is good because it's a common, off-the-shelf connector. As such it's pretty easy to get cables for it.

Tim's board for the Famicom isn't a perfect solution, but I think it's a very good option, especially as it allows installing without much visible alteration to the plastics.
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Einzelherz
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Einzelherz »

bobrocks95 wrote:
viletim wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:Knew I'd flipped that around with something. Then the question is, can you repurpose the channel switch? Changing palettes on the controller sounds cool, but I won't ever be using the Everdrive (hyuck).
Repurpose...for what other purpose?
I was thinking maybe a 2-palette switch? Thinking about it, it's probably a LOT more work than it's worth, and less functional compared to the controller method to boot. Hindsight's 20/20, though as I said I won't ever be using the switch for an Everdrive.
If you find my photos on here I turned the ch3-ch4 switch into a palette switch and it works great. It was a lot of work though (more than the actual NESRGB install).
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ApolloBoy
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by ApolloBoy »

Einzelherz wrote:In here I turned the ch3-ch4 switch into a palette switch and it works great. It was a lot of work though (more than the actual NESRGB install).
Cutting some traces and soldering a few wires was more work than installing the NESRGB itself? Whaaaaat?
TheRetromancer
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TheRetromancer »

ms06fz wrote:The economical solution is to buy multiple Nintendo-brand SNES composite cables (relatively cheap, under $10 each), take them apart (the official ones can be disassembled) and rewire them to make S-video or other kinds of cables.
That's a great idea, but close to impossible in practice - the official SNES composite cables are not fully wired - they only have LR audio and video plus maybe GND. The pins simply aren't there. I suppose it's possible to grab a bunch of molex connectors and carefully open the AV connector up and reposition the pins, but holy crap, that would be a lot of work.
ApolloBoy wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:In here I turned the ch3-ch4 switch into a palette switch and it works great. It was a lot of work though (more than the actual NESRGB install).
Cutting some traces and soldering a few wires was more work than installing the NESRGB itself? Whaaaaat?
Yeah, my WTF meter blew a fuse at that. Kindly explain your meaning, Einzelherz...
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CkRtech
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by CkRtech »

TheRetromancer wrote:
ms06fz wrote:The economical solution is to buy multiple Nintendo-brand SNES composite cables (relatively cheap, under $10 each), take them apart (the official ones can be disassembled) and rewire them to make S-video or other kinds of cables.
That's a great idea, but close to impossible in practice - the official SNES composite cables are not fully wired - they only have LR audio and video plus maybe GND. The pins simply aren't there. I suppose it's possible to grab a bunch of molex connectors and carefully open the AV connector up and reposition the pins, but holy crap, that would be a lot of work.
I think that is why ms06fz suggested getting multiple Nintendo-brand SNES composite cables. You can just pull the extra pins out of the "parts" cable you are using and fashion a connector that connects to Chroma, Luma, GND, Audio L, Audio R. I did the same thing to make an RGB cable. As for the wires, you could either form Voltron by running your two SNES cable wires into your single multiout connector or buy a high quality S-Video with Stereo audio cable, chop the ends off one side, and solder them up inside the SNES connector.

The Nintendo brand SNES multiout connector is actually quite large on the inside (relatively speaking) and easier to work with than the 3rd party connectors - or at least the ones I have encountered.
TheRetromancer
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TheRetromancer »

CkRtech wrote:
TheRetromancer wrote:
ms06fz wrote:The economical solution is to buy multiple Nintendo-brand SNES composite cables (relatively cheap, under $10 each), take them apart (the official ones can be disassembled) and rewire them to make S-video or other kinds of cables.
That's a great idea, but close to impossible in practice - the official SNES composite cables are not fully wired - they only have LR audio and video plus maybe GND. The pins simply aren't there. I suppose it's possible to grab a bunch of molex connectors and carefully open the AV connector up and reposition the pins, but holy crap, that would be a lot of work.
I think that is why ms06fz suggested getting multiple Nintendo-brand SNES composite cables. You can just pull the extra pins out of the "parts" cable you are using and fashion a connector that connects to Chroma, Luma, GND, Audio L, Audio R. I did the same thing to make an RGB cable. As for the wires, you could either form Voltron by running your two SNES cable wires into your single multiout connector or buy a high quality S-Video with Stereo audio cable, chop the ends off one side, and solder them up inside the SNES connector.

The Nintendo brand SNES multiout connector is actually quite large on the inside (relatively speaking) and easier to work with than the 3rd party connectors - or at least the ones I have encountered.
Yeeeeeeeeaahno. I'll stick with grabbing RGB for my console, thanks. Nothing quite like seeing razor-sharp pixels on a giant-ass HDTV from your old systems...
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CkRtech
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by CkRtech »

TheRetromancer wrote:Yeeeeeeeeaahno. I'll stick with grabbing RGB for my console, thanks. Nothing quite like seeing razor-sharp pixels on a giant-ass HDTV from your old systems...
I was talking about making cables - not about S-Video vs RGB. S-Video was my example of cable making since that is what ms06fz mentioned, and my response was to further explain why he said to get multiple cables in order to use the pins with the connector.

So I don't actually understand your response.
TheRetromancer
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TheRetromancer »

CkRtech wrote:
TheRetromancer wrote:Yeeeeeeeeaahno. I'll stick with grabbing RGB for my console, thanks. Nothing quite like seeing razor-sharp pixels on a giant-ass HDTV from your old systems...
I was talking about making cables - not about S-Video vs RGB. S-Video was my example of cable making since that is what ms06fz mentioned, and my response was to further explain why he said to get multiple cables in order to use the pins with the connector.

So I don't actually understand your response.
My response is predicated on two factors: 1) that actually making, by hand, an S-video cable is wasteful and pointless when 2) pre-made RGB cables are plentiful, relatively cheap, and superiour in all aspects by several orders of magnitude.

This is completely ignoring the horror of someone cannibalizing OEM cables for such an absurd endeavour...
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CkRtech
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by CkRtech »

TheRetromancer wrote:My response is predicated on two factors: 1) that actually making, by hand, an S-video cable is wasteful and pointless when 2) pre-made RGB cables are plentiful, relatively cheap, and superiour in all aspects by several orders of magnitude.
Not everyone can make use of RGB. Also - Again, it was just an example of making a cable. You can do the same thing to make an RGB cable.
This is completely ignoring the horror of someone cannibalizing OEM cables for such an absurd endeavour...
I don't see how it is considered absurd. In order to make the cables, you have to source the multiout plugs from somewhere. The Nintendo OEM cables are the best ones to use because it is easier to pop them open and do the soldering/wiring work.

If you mean the destruction of OEM composite cables simply because they are OEM - I guess I can see that to a certain degree if you are looking to find a set in order to complete a boxed SNES (for example) in a collection. If cables were being destroyed in masses for the sake of making selling cables via ebay or an online shop, I could see that as something that might furrow some brows.

However for personal use - for your own console collection, a friend who asks, a forum member or two on some Internet forum, or even for as many people that would provide their own OEM cables for parts - Using the OEM cables is the best source for that multiout plug because they are so easy to work/rework. I consider the decision to be along the same lines as deciding to drill holes in your console for mods - Maybe some people would never do something like that to their consoles, but there are certainly other people that would.

Perhaps the future might provide multiout plugs that can snap and unsnap the way the OEM Nintendo cables do? I don't really know. The 3rd party ones I have seen require glue to seal them up properly.
ms06fz
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by ms06fz »

TheRetromancer wrote:
ms06fz wrote:The economical solution is to buy multiple Nintendo-brand SNES composite cables (relatively cheap, under $10 each), take them apart (the official ones can be disassembled) and rewire them to make S-video or other kinds of cables.
That's a great idea, but close to impossible in practice - the official SNES composite cables are not fully wired - they only have LR audio and video plus maybe GND. The pins simply aren't there. I suppose it's possible to grab a bunch of molex connectors and carefully open the AV connector up and reposition the pins, but holy crap, that would be a lot of work.
It's not "close to impossible in practice", I've done it. This is exactly how I get S-video cables for my SFC and AV Famicom - after discovering that all the third party S-Video cables I'd bought were complete garbage, I started making my own.

Normally it's two composite cables used to make one S-Video cable (or in greater quantities, it could be 6 composite cables to make 5 S-Video cables) - but it's actually possible to make an S-Video cable with just one composite cable. The AV Multi-out cable has two ground pins, and the Nintendo-branded cables connect to both of them. So it's video + L/R audio + 2 grounds, a total of 5 pins. I think it's better to have both connections, but you can get by with just one. (Luma + Chroma + L audio + R audio + 1 ground = 5 pins) Nintendo produced these cables for close to 20 years and bundled them by default with three generations of their consoles, and they're dirt cheap. I don't feel bad using them for parts.

As CkRtech suggested, I could buy a SCART-style RGB cable but I'd have nothing to connect it to. Anyway the point I was trying to make is that the lengths I go to in order to get S-video cables is an example of why the "standard" Nintendo video connector maybe isn't worth the trouble. To get an official S-Video cable at this point would cost me around $40. The equivalent mini-DIN S-Video cable plus stereo RCA cable is less than $10 at retail.
Though admittedly I didn't know third-party RGB cables for SNES could be gotten so cheaply. It still leaves you with the problem of getting a multi-out receptacle to mount in your console (which, as Tim said, isn't cheap unless you're scrapping another console for it) - and mini-DIN cables are still cheaper than the third-party multi-out RGB cables...
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Einzelherz
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Einzelherz »

ApolloBoy wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:In here I turned the ch3-ch4 switch into a palette switch and it works great. It was a lot of work though (more than the actual NESRGB install).
Cutting some traces and soldering a few wires was more work than installing the NESRGB itself? Whaaaaat?
Oops, my mistake. I was thinking the entire PSU unit work I did. The palette switch was cake. The minidin 9 in place of the RF out was the huge PITA.
TheRetromancer
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TheRetromancer »

ms06fz wrote:It's not "close to impossible in practice", I've done it. This is exactly how I get S-video cables for my SFC and AV Famicom - after discovering that all the third party S-Video cables I'd bought were complete garbage, I started making my own.

Normally it's two composite cables used to make one S-Video cable (or in greater quantities, it could be 6 composite cables to make 5 S-Video cables) - but it's actually possible to make an S-Video cable with just one composite cable. The AV Multi-out cable has two ground pins, and the Nintendo-branded cables connect to both of them. So it's video + L/R audio + 2 grounds, a total of 5 pins. I think it's better to have both connections, but you can get by with just one. (Luma + Chroma + L audio + R audio + 1 ground = 5 pins) Nintendo produced these cables for close to 20 years and bundled them by default with three generations of their consoles, and they're dirt cheap. I don't feel bad using them for parts.

As CkRtech suggested, I could buy a SCART-style RGB cable but I'd have nothing to connect it to. Anyway the point I was trying to make is that the lengths I go to in order to get S-video cables is an example of why the "standard" Nintendo video connector maybe isn't worth the trouble. To get an official S-Video cable at this point would cost me around $40. The equivalent mini-DIN S-Video cable plus stereo RCA cable is less than $10 at retail.
Though admittedly I didn't know third-party RGB cables for SNES could be gotten so cheaply. It still leaves you with the problem of getting a multi-out receptacle to mount in your console (which, as Tim said, isn't cheap unless you're scrapping another console for it) - and mini-DIN cables are still cheaper than the third-party multi-out RGB cables...
I understand the points raised by both of you, but I have to say that the 'for a friend', 'for personal use' argument is a slippery slope in the truest sense of the term. And yes, part of my distaste for the cannibalization of OEM materials IS simply because it's OEM, but it really has to do with the mindset that this encourages, ie, the 'scavenger of the obsolete'.

I also feel the need to point out that this is the NESRGB thread. Yes, the board puts out S-video, too, and that's lovely, but I cannot help but feel that using anything less than the full power of this board is something of a waste. I know all too well the expense and time I went through when I decided to get good video out of my old consoles, and I would have saved much more money had I simply purchased the top-tier stuff at the beginning. And honestly - most people don't need the expense of my setup (which now clocks in at two 5-port SCART autoswitches, 9 custom RGB SCART cables, a very pricey video recorder, and the X-RGB mini Framemeister, which all told cost me somewhere around $1300), and the average joe could make do spending less than $100 for a decent SCART-to-HDMI converter and a premade RGB cable.
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ms06fz
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by ms06fz »

TheRetromancer wrote: I understand the points raised by both of you, but I have to say that the 'for a friend', 'for personal use' argument is a slippery slope in the truest sense of the term. And yes, part of my distaste for the cannibalization of OEM materials IS simply because it's OEM, but it really has to do with the mindset that this encourages, ie, the 'scavenger of the obsolete'.
But that's exactly what we're doing anyway. Taking old hardware, modifying it to suit our needs.
I also feel the need to point out that this is the NESRGB thread. Yes, the board puts out S-video, too, and that's lovely, but I cannot help but feel that using anything less than the full power of this board is something of a waste.
I spent about $120 to get a huge increase in picture quality out of my NES by going to NESRGB and S-Video. (Actually I modded both my systems, that was a bit irresponsible spending maybe, but I'm very happy with the results.) I could spend another couple hundred to go to RGB and get a modest increase in picture quality over S-Video. I'd be happy to go that route but it's not gonna happen right now.

But again, my point with all this talk about cabling was just to point out the problems that come from using proprietary connectors. The fact that you can't make a cable without scrapping a cable (or two) - and the cost associated with doing that, to me that's a pretty good argument against using the multi-out connector in consoles that haven't got it already.
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RGB32E
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by RGB32E »

ms06fz wrote:To get an official S-Video cable at this point would cost me around $40.
:shock:
Just checked eBay, and to my surprise, the official S-Video cables are indeed selling for $30-$40, and the monster ones for even more!? Guess there is a demand for these. Was wondering what I was going to do with the dozen of them I'm sitting on. :? :lol: The monster one is decent, but way too long (10ft IIRC).
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by leonk »

RGB32E wrote:
ms06fz wrote:To get an official S-Video cable at this point would cost me around $40.
:shock:
Just checked eBay, and to my surprise, the official S-Video cables are indeed selling for $30-$40, and the monster ones for even more!? Guess there is a demand for these. Was wondering what I was going to do with the dozen of them I'm sitting on. :? :lol: The monster one is decent, but way too long (10ft IIRC).
I personally prefer the unofficial version. I find the multiAV port on official Nintendo cables to be too big! There's no reason for them to take up so much of the space in the back when unofficial ones are 1/4" to 1/2" narrower!
TheRetromancer
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TheRetromancer »

leonk wrote:I personally prefer the unofficial version. I find the multiAV port on official Nintendo cables to be too big! There's no reason for them to take up so much of the space in the back when unofficial ones are 1/4" to 1/2" narrower!
Agree with you there - I installed my palette switch right next to the AV out on my AV Famicom, and if I plug in the OEM cable, it literally scrapes the switch - the 3rd-party plug is much slimmer and, dare I say, more elegant in a way.
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Einzelherz
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Einzelherz »

RGB32E wrote:
ms06fz wrote:To get an official S-Video cable at this point would cost me around $40.
:shock:
Just checked eBay, and to my surprise, the official S-Video cables are indeed selling for $30-$40, and the monster ones for even more!? Guess there is a demand for these. Was wondering what I was going to do with the dozen of them I'm sitting on. :? :lol: The monster one is decent, but way too long (10ft IIRC).
It's been like this a while now. I sold a couple of Monsters on there earlier this year.

And as far as cannibalizing OEMS there are literally 5.23 billion multi-out AV cables. Repurposing them isn't a hate crime. (I used an aftermarket one personally, but that's because I had it just lying around.)
mvsfan
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by mvsfan »

Ive noticed that tims component board for the nesrgb is out now.
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