NESRGB board available now

[lettuce]

Regarding the voltage regulator for the front loader NES, are people using the supplied regulator or just using the internal NES regulator? If using the internal NES regulator are people getting the +5v from the +5v leg of the PPU on the NESRGB and then getting the ground from the ground pin of the internal NES regulator?

Just wondered if there a higher rated chip that could replace the 7805 regulator, so it might not produce soo much heat??

[stuntman]

...I understand this may not be a big issue to those with the requisite technical experience to fix the problem on their end, but for a regular consumer who's interested in purchasing your amazing NES RGB kit, this is not acceptable to have a timing issue that once again requires the customer to fix the problem. I realize that this product exists solely in the realm of the modding enthusiasts and not "laymen"...

Yes, this is not a "regular consumer" product.

Please don't take my point harshly, I'm merely saying from a business standpoint (as well as customer relations angle) that it is preferable to take more time to ensure an optimal product is released, than to ship one with lingering issues expediently...

Niche interest, specialist items (such as the NESRGB) are often produced by an individual or very small team in their spare time. With a product of this nature purchasers become the testers. Expecting Tim to test every game/configuration is not reasonable. A fixable product is better than no release at all.

[viletim]

...I understand this may not be a big issue to those with the requisite technical experience to fix the problem on their end, but for a regular consumer who's interested in purchasing your amazing NES RGB kit, this is not acceptable to have a timing issue that once again requires the customer to fix the problem. I realize that this product exists solely in the realm of the modding enthusiasts and not "laymen"...

I developed the NESRGB over a year ago. The original hardware had very a tolerant RAM chip. Now the hardware has changed, the bugs have come out, and by this time I've forgotten how this thing works. It's not a good excuse, but that's the gist of it.

I spent some more time on it today. Even though V1.6 should do the trick, I was not completely happy with it and made some further changes. There will be no more RAM related problems now. I have gone over everything carefully. Version 1.7 is available here:
http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/background_fault/

The link above also contains a instructions to effectively fix V1.5 by soldering on a capacitor. I have tried it on three boards and it solves the problem for the two known problem games (Mario 2 and Metroid).

[Voultar]

...I understand this may not be a big issue to those with the requisite technical experience to fix the problem on their end, but for a regular consumer who's interested in purchasing your amazing NES RGB kit, this is not acceptable to have a timing issue that once again requires the customer to fix the problem. I realize that this product exists solely in the realm of the modding enthusiasts and not "laymen"...

I developed the NESRGB over a year ago. The original hardware had very a tolerant RAM chip. Now the hardware has changed, the bugs have come out, and by this time I've forgotten how this thing works. It's not a good excuse, but that's the gist of it.

I spent some more time on it today. Even though V1.6 should do the trick, I was not completely happy with it and made some further changes. There will be no more RAM related problems now. I have gone over everything carefully. Version 1.7 is available here:
http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/background_fault/

The link above also contains a instructions to effectively fix V1.5 by soldering on a capacitor. I have tried it on three boards and it solves the problem for the two known problem games (Mario 2 and Metroid).

Good to know, Tim.

Where does the S-Video/subcarrier diagonal jail-barring rest at on your priority list? The firmware updates are great, but this is a pretty big issue for a few people, including myself. Even though I have migrated onto an XRGB-Mini, I'd like to get my customers sorted. I'm not trying to rush or press you, just curious to see what you can find. Thanks for taking these issues to task!

[ms06fz]

Regarding the voltage regulator for the front loader NES, are people using the supplied regulator or just using the internal NES regulator? If using the internal NES regulator are people getting the +5v from the +5v leg of the PPU on the NESRGB and then getting the ground from the ground pin of the internal NES regulator?

Just wondered if there a higher rated chip that could replace the 7805 regulator, so it might not produce soo much heat??

There was no "supplied regulator" with my order, so I'm using the stock regulator for now. Was a bit distressed when I first turned it on, didn't know that you had to short out J3 to use the NES 5V supply, so I was left wondering for a bit why I wasn't seeing anything.
IIRC gametech US uses a 1.5A regulator to replace the stock regulator - I'll probably go that route as well.

I don't know if the stock regulator on my NES is having any issues - I've only tested my install for brief periods and haven't checked the temperature of the regulator to see if there's an issue. But upgrading the 5V supply seems like a thing that should be done, so I'm-a do it... I don't want to potentially run into issues later.

[TheRetromancer]

Tim, I am continually amazed at your drive to fix bugs so quickly. In a world where the corporate mentality is "it works well enough", to see someone who really stands by their product and pushes for excellence...well, I admire that. I truly do, and I think it's worth pointing out to others.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

...I understand this may not be a big issue to those with the requisite technical experience to fix the problem on their end, but for a regular consumer who's interested in purchasing your amazing NES RGB kit, this is not acceptable to have a timing issue that once again requires the customer to fix the problem. I realize that this product exists solely in the realm of the modding enthusiasts and not "laymen"...

I developed the NESRGB over a year ago. The original hardware had very a tolerant RAM chip. Now the hardware has changed, the bugs have come out, and by this time I've forgotten how this thing works. It's not a good excuse, but that's the gist of it.

I spent some more time on it today. Even though V1.6 should do the trick, I was not completely happy with it and made some further changes. There will be no more RAM related problems now. I have gone over everything carefully. Version 1.7 is available here:
http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/background_fault/

The link above also contains a instructions to effectively fix V1.5 by soldering on a capacitor. I have tried it on three boards and it solves the problem for the two known problem games (Mario 2 and Metroid).

I can understand how hardware revisions can introduce previously nonexistent problems, and I certainly acknowledge the completely unfeasible concept of having this board %100 bug free and tested for compatibility at it's inception. I suppose my hesitation was that for someone like me who would have to contract someone to install the kit on my NES, there's currently no user-friendly way to update the firmware if previously unknown issues arise on my end once I receive it.

As darcagn mentioned above, if there was some built-in update interface implemented that would be easy for the consumer to update if needed, I would have bought the second revision when I had the chance. As an example, when there was a certain incompatibility with Krikzz's N8 Everdrive flash cart, it was easily remedied by downloading and extracting the latest OS update in a user friendly format. I realize that flash carts are fundamentally a different type of hardware, but I'm curious if after this second hiccup, you'll consider implementing some direct firmware update method for the end user, as I would definitely be willing to pay the requisite increased price to have that convenience and piece of mind.

Am I right in assuming that boards ordered from you will now ship with the 1.7 firmware?

[leonk]

The NESRGB is user upgradable. Tim has released multiple upgrades for it. Because the NESRGB is the engine in a much bigger installation solution, it is up to your installer to provide an upgrade port with the external upgrade device (parts in total should cost about $10). If your installer doesn't offer this to you then you should ask for it if it's that important for you. Blaming Tim for an incomplete install is just silly. There have been more than a few posts in this long thread with examples of permanent upgrade ports installed for the NESRGB.

[darcagn]

The NESRGB is user upgradable. Tim has released multiple upgrades for it. Because the NESRGB is the engine in a much bigger installation solution, it is up to your installer to provide an upgrade port with the external upgrade device (parts in total should cost about $10). If your installer doesn't offer this to you then you should ask for it if it's that important for you. Blaming Tim for an incomplete install is just silly. There have been more than a few posts in this long thread with examples of permanent upgrade ports installed for the NESRGB.

Come on, the NESRGB is not intended to be user upgradeable. If it were, you wouldn't have to purchase clone programmer hardware from China in order to do so or wait for the manufacturer (Tim) to send you such hardware, instructions to remedy issues by hardware (via replacement chips or adding caps) wouldn't have been released, instructions for using the blaster and a pinout for the 6 pins would have been included prior to the first shipments, or more likely it would have been able to connect via USB and a firmware file, not using a blaster and quartus, etc. Can you name another product that had a manufacturer-sanctioned sharing program to distribute hardware to upgrade a firmware file? Serious question, how many modders are leaving pin headers or USB blasters integrated with their installs? I think you're the only one, leonk. It is what it is and there's no use in complaining about it now, IMO either buy it with a blaster or don't buy it at all, but there's no point in trying to rewrite history and pretending that this was intended to happen in the first place. Because, honestly, if it was, Tim made some really stupid decisions.

[Voultar]

I believe that everyone had the pre-conceived notion that the NESRGB was 100% ready to go, out of the box.

Ultimately, it's an enthusiast's toy, and it should be treated as such. It's a pain in the ass for those of us in the modding community like myself who do mod-work on a weekly basis. I guess I really feel bad for those who have to keep paying commission every time Tim finds a hole that needs patching. The only thing I can ask of Tim to improve upon is his communication; the lack of disclosure is what I find most disconcerting.

But hey, this is still a relatively new process for Tim. He's trying to work everything out, and he's doing the best he can do. I know this is a side project for him, but that doesn't mean that being attentive and prompt should come secondary.

Money is being exchanged, after all.

@ darcagn

- I leave headers in the JTAG interface, why wouldn't I at this point? But yes, I certainly see it from your point of view. This comes back to disclosure, I believe that the consumer was generally under the impression that this would be a one time deal, a lot of people have invested more money and time in this than they wanted to initially. But hey, that's just how it goes sometimes. I'm just happy that we have this product. Tim really needs to look into a fix for the diagonal Jail-Barring. I tried assisting in troubleshooting that issue, eliminating factors and going through the process of elimination. Hopefully Tim will read through my notes and not try to pass it off as sub-par cabling again.

I don't know if any of you other peeps are doing this. But tacking in headers to the JTAG interface on the underside of the NESRGB work great for fast programming.

[leonk]

Come on, the NESRGB is not intended to be user upgradeable.

Hold on there.. I think that you are really mistaken by that statement. Tim could have easily programmed EPROMs with the FPGA code, and soldered them on board. But he had the foresight (or good education) to include the JTAG port on the NESRGB. Yes, it makes it simple for him to program blanks, but he could have saved a bit of space, and some components by leaving the port (and required components to make it work) off.

This is no different than the mini-USB port on an SDSNES or mini-USB port on an Apple TV. It just so happened that these 2 companies (1 hobbiest and 1 big corporation) decided to externalize their upgrade ports. Just because you decided not to externalize yours doesn't mean it's Tim's problem. It's all in the installation.

At the end of the day, Tim has created an amazing product. It requires a skilled individual to put it together and install it. It is a heck of a lot more difficult to install an NESRGB into a fresh NES system than it is to upgrade the firmware on a unit.

A "regular user" that complains about needing to upgrade the firmware shouldn't be purchasing and installing an NESRGB in the first place! If I were to sell modified units, I would include an upgrade port .. it would cost me 10$ more (and I'll pass the cost onto my customers) but it will also mean future proofing their investment. For my own personal system, I left the upgrade port just under the case. All I need to do is remove the 4 screw, lift the top case, and there it is. Many others have do so, and showed pictures of the headers just under the lid.

I don't know Tim. I never met him, or spoke to him in person. But I really believe that his product is the best thing that happened to the NES since Super Mario Bros 3 came out on the system. If anyone has a problem with how he does things, they are more than welcome to not buy from him, and create their own version of the NESRGB..

[darcagn]

Hold on there.. I think that you are really mistaken by that statement. Tim could have easily programmed EPROMs with the FPGA code, and soldered them on board. But he had the foresight (or good education) to include the JTAG port on the NESRGB. Yes, it makes it simple for him to program blanks, but he could have saved a bit of space, and some components by leaving the port (and required components to make it work) off.

This is irrelevant; the NESRGB does not use an FPGA, it uses a CPLD, which has non-volatile programmable memory built into the chip. All of the JTAG holes are literally straight through to pins on the CPLD without any components so there was no extra cost associated with including a JTAG port on every single board.

This is no different than the mini-USB port on an SDSNES or mini-USB port on an Apple TV.

I wouldn't compare it to flash cartridges considering the SD2SNES is user upgradable via firmware on the SD card and not via the USB port. Actually I'm pretty sure the USB port on the current SD2SNES firmware revision literally does nothing.

If you want to compare it to flash cartridges I would say it's more like the Everdrive, which comes in two varieties, a user modifiable version (with a port) and a non-user modifiable version (with holes for a port but no port actually present... just like NESRGB).

It just so happened that these 2 companies (1 hobbiest and 1 big corporation) decided to externalize their upgrade ports. Just because you decided not to externalize yours doesn't mean it's Tim's problem. It's all in the installation.

I did externalize mine and I posted pics. But the very fact that Tim took his own time and money to distribute blasters worldwide shows that it is Tim's "problem" if that's how you choose to define this situation. Also doesn't him modifying the blasters so that they can update the board without the console being powered indicate that he didn't intend on people updating the boards while they were installed in a console?

At the end of the day, Tim has created an amazing product. It requires a skilled individual to put it together and install it. It is a heck of a lot more difficult to install an NESRGB into a fresh NES system than it is to upgrade the firmware on a unit.

A "regular user" that complains about needing to upgrade the firmware shouldn't be purchasing and installing an NESRGB in the first place! If I were to sell modified units, I would include an upgrade port .. it would cost me 10$ more (and I'll pass the cost onto my customers) but it will also mean future proofing their investment. For my own personal system, I left the upgrade port just under the case. All I need to do is remove the 4 screw, lift the top case, and there it is. Many others have do so, and showed pictures of the headers just under the lid.

I don't know Tim. I never met him, or spoke to him in person. But I really believe that his product is the best thing that happened to the NES since Super Mario Bros 3 came out on the system. If anyone has a problem with how he does things, they are more than welcome to not buy from him, and create their own version of the NESRGB..

No one is arguing the legacy of Tim Worthington and his accomplishments in this thread. It's a very great product, Tim has satisfactorily done all he can to rectify the situation with the background fault, and I plan on buying more of them. I bought two boards that didn't work with the majority of games "out of the box" and I never made a single peep or complaint about it. If you're not interested in discussing the product, why are you in this thread at all? I don't see how what I said was the least bit rude/disrespectful/disparaging of Tim, and it certainly doesn't warrant a snide "feel free to not buy the product and take your money elsewhere" comment. No one even implied that they were interested in doing that, so I would appreciate it if you stopped these borderline ad hominem attacks.

[Shining]

Wait, just to make it clear. To be able to use an Altera USB Blaster one would need to install a JTAG port/socket on the NESRGB board? My version should be 1.7 when it ships but it couldn't hurt to let my modder install such a port.

[eightbitminiboss]

Wait, just to make it clear. To be able to use an Altera USB Blaster one would need to install a JTAG port/socket on the NESRGB board? My version should be 1.7 when it ships but it couldn't hurt to let my modder install such a port.

Not quite that simple. You need to modifying the JTAG cable to facilitate the pin orientation on the NESRGB and also deciding to modify the blaster to allow the power the NESRGB it needs to be able to flash without needing a separate power source.

[lettuce]

Would this L78S00 series regulator be an ok upgrade to the internal NES regulator to cut down on heat build up??.....

OUTPUT CURRENT TO 2A
OUTPUT VOLTAGES OF 5; 7.5; 9; 10; 12; 15;
18; 24V
THERMAL OVERLOAD PROTECTION
SHORT CIRCUIT PROTECTIONn
OUTPUT TRANSITION SOA PROTECTION

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/76145.pdf

or though the one im looking at ends in 5 (L78S05) so im guessing thats 5v is that enough fro the NES or should i get the 10v version, i guess L78S10??

[mickcris]

Would this L78S00 series regulator be an ok upgrade to the internal NES regulator to cut down on heat build up??.....

OUTPUT CURRENT TO 2A
OUTPUT VOLTAGES OF 5; 7.5; 9; 10; 12; 15;
18; 24V
THERMAL OVERLOAD PROTECTION
SHORT CIRCUIT PROTECTIONn
OUTPUT TRANSITION SOA PROTECTION

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/76145.pdf

or though the one im looking at ends in 5 (L78S05) so im guessing thats 5v is that enough fro the NES or should i get the 10v version, i guess L78S10??

I think you would fry the NES if you used anything higher than a 5v regulator and it would not work with anything less. Jason (game-tech-us) was replacing the stock 5v 7805 with one rated at 1.5a i think. I think the stock regulator is rated at 1a. Not sure about the different series though.

[darcagn]

You honestly don't need to replace the voltage regulator in the NES. But if you really want to, just replace it with this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171332337993

The regulator has thermal paste on it, you will want to clean the old thermal paste off of the heatsink and reapply new paste. It might be fine without paste but I have plenty so I haven't bothered to experiment there.

[mvsfan]

when you power the usb blaster from the usb port it works fine for programming boards without them being hooked up to an nes.

if you dont power it like that, you will have to first install it in a nes and turn the nes on.

also it doesnt seem to matter if you program it with a game in or not i accidentally programmed one while it was running super mario bros and it programmed fine.

also - does anyone have any idea where i can get a new replacement connector for a US toploader board?

i have one that someone tore the connector plastic off of and its just the pins left and i havent been able to find a replacement.

[lettuce]

You honestly don't need to replace the voltage regulator in the NES. But if you really want to, just replace it with this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171332337993

The regulator has thermal paste on it, you will want to clean the old thermal paste off of the heatsink and reapply new paste. It might be fine without paste but I have plenty so I haven't bothered to experiment there.

Its not better to use a 2A regulator then?

Regarding the 5v and 10v, i though it would only output whats asked of it so if the NES is only asking for 5v thats what the regulator would supply?

[ms06fz]

You honestly don't need to replace the voltage regulator in the NES. But if you really want to, just replace it with this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171332337993

The regulator has thermal paste on it, you will want to clean the old thermal paste off of the heatsink and reapply new paste. It might be fine without paste but I have plenty so I haven't bothered to experiment there.

Its not better to use a 2A regulator then?

Regarding the 5v and 10v, i though it would only output whats asked of it so if the NES is only asking for 5v thats what the regulator would supply?

There is no "what the NES is asking for", there's just what you give it. If you give it too much, something's gonna fry.

But the 5V/10V options were for different parts in the same family - you could buy different variations of basically the same part to get those different voltages.

[darcagn]

You honestly don't need to replace the voltage regulator in the NES. But if you really want to, just replace it with this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171332337993

The regulator has thermal paste on it, you will want to clean the old thermal paste off of the heatsink and reapply new paste. It might be fine without paste but I have plenty so I haven't bothered to experiment there.

Its not better to use a 2A regulator then?

Regarding the 5v and 10v, i though it would only output whats asked of it so if the NES is only asking for 5v thats what the regulator would supply?

The stock 1A regulator has already been determined to be adequate, so upgrading to 1.5A is more of a paranoia thing than anything else. No point in going to 2A.

Regarding voltage, no, the NES doesn't ask for anything, you need to supply it with a 5V power regulator or you'll fry it. The NES will only draw the current (in amps) it needs, but voltage must be supplied properly.

[Vault94]

Can anyone do this for me for a NES toaster, with the 3 colour pallet switch. I was going to contact GameTech but by the time I added shipping together from the UK it was over $300. I'm looking for someone within Europe who's done it before, you'd be paid well.

- Matt

[lettuce]

You honestly don't need to replace the voltage regulator in the NES. But if you really want to, just replace it with this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171332337993

The regulator has thermal paste on it, you will want to clean the old thermal paste off of the heatsink and reapply new paste. It might be fine without paste but I have plenty so I haven't bothered to experiment there.

Its not better to use a 2A regulator then?

Regarding the 5v and 10v, i though it would only output whats asked of it so if the NES is only asking for 5v thats what the regulator would supply?

The stock 1A regulator has already been determined to be adequate, so upgrading to 1.5A is more of a paranoia thing than anything else. No point in going to 2A.

Regarding voltage, no, the NES doesn't ask for anything, you need to supply it with a 5V power regulator or you'll fry it. The NES will only draw the current (in amps) it needs, but voltage must be supplied properly.

I was under the assumption that if a 2A regulator was used over a 1.5A then the regulator would run even cooler??

[leonk]

Email Jason from gametechUSA. I'm sure he can hook you up with a connector from one of his parts top loaders.

[ms06fz]

I was under the assumption that if a 2A regulator was used over a 1.5A then the regulator would run even cooler??

Well, not really... It's a linear regulator, which means (roughly) it's like having a resistor in line whose value adjusts to produce 5V output. In other words, all the excess voltage (times whatever amount of current) is expended as heat. So it should be the same amount of heat dissipation whether it's a 2A regulator or a 1.5A.

[Unseen]

There are some switching regulators that can be used as a direct replacement for a 78xx regulator, e.g. Recom R-78xx or Traco Power TSR-1. They should work in a NES, but it might require a small modification of the heat sink because the packages are thicker than the TO220 of the original regulator.

IIRC these switching regulators have a higher noise/ripple voltage compared to the 78xx linear regulators, but at least in the Commodore scene (some people replace the internal regulators of a C64 or C16 with these to reduce heat) I haven't seen any reports about reduced video/audio quality due to that.

[alimadhi]

Hi,
What I should do update the NESRGB to 1.7 and Added capacitor 22pf ? i have (capacitors are yellow and Text reads NESRGB, T.W. 2013.) Hardware.

[darcagn]

Hi,
What I should do update the NESRGB to 1.7 and Added capacitor 22pf ? i have (capacitors are yellow and Text reads NESRGB, T.W. 2013.) Hardware.

That's a second batch board, and it came with 1.0 or 1.3. The capacitor fix doesn't fix any of the bugs that are present in 1.0 and 1.3. I would suggest purchasing a cheap USB blaster and updating the firmware.

If you have 1.0, there should be bugs with a majority of games.
If you have 1.3, there should only be bugs with Orb 3D, Morskoy Boy, Duck Maze, and the Castlevania II English Re-translation. Others have seen bugs in Final Fantasy and Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy in this revision as well.

1.7 has no known bugs at the moment.

[Shining]

Wait, just to make it clear. To be able to use an Altera USB Blaster one would need to install a JTAG port/socket on the NESRGB board? My version should be 1.7 when it ships but it couldn't hurt to let my modder install such a port.

Not quite that simple. You need to modifying the JTAG cable to facilitate the pin orientation on the NESRGB and also deciding to modify the blaster to allow the power the NESRGB it needs to be able to flash without needing a separate power source.

Ok.. thanks.

I know there is no 'absolute' way in doing this mod but i'd like some advice. The person who did my RGB AV Famicom (Playchoice 10) is going to re-mod it and install a NESRGB (1.7) board instead. The original composite PPU is going to be soldered back in. Anything in particular to take into consideration when modding an AV Famicom?

[darcagn]

Wait, just to make it clear. To be able to use an Altera USB Blaster one would need to install a JTAG port/socket on the NESRGB board? My version should be 1.7 when it ships but it couldn't hurt to let my modder install such a port.

Not quite that simple. You need to modifying the JTAG cable to facilitate the pin orientation on the NESRGB and also deciding to modify the blaster to allow the power the NESRGB it needs to be able to flash without needing a separate power source.

Ok.. thanks.

I know there is no 'absolute' way in doing this mod but i'd like some advice. The person who did my RGB AV Famicom (Playchoice 10) is going to re-mod it and install a NESRGB (1.7) board instead. The original composite PPU is going to be soldered back in. Anything in particular to take into consideration when modding an AV Famicom?

1. Make sure you get the AV Famicom adapter board when you purchase the kit.
2. The three capacitors on the R, G, and B output lines on the NESRGB should be removed, as the AV Famicom uses multiout cables and multiout SCART cables already have capacitors in them.
3. Decide if you want to use the stock audio circuit (no work necessary) or if you want the NESRGB audio circuit (will need stock audio disconnected, expansion audio hooked up to NESRGB board, and NESRGB board wired to the multiout pins).