NESRGB board available now

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tzakiel
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by tzakiel »

leonk wrote:what game is that? I can test on my system.
Well the screenshot is from Jackie Chan's action kung fu just before the final boss fight. However this effect is easy to produce if you have super mario 2 for example, just go to a long log in the first stage and check the blue background.

Image

Really anywhere with a long /heavy black line and a solid color background next to it.
Ikaruga11
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Ikaruga11 »

I wonder if this is an issue with the NESRGB mod or the NES in general.
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FBX
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by FBX »

GeneraLight wrote:I wonder if this is an issue with the NESRGB mod or the NES in general.
Aren't the palette and resulting image generated by the NESRGB board directly? I can't imagine how something native in the NES would make its way through the NESRGB and actually cause contrast streaks from the digital palette code.
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Einzelherz
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Einzelherz »

tzakiel wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:That's strange. mikejmoffitt has the exact same problem. I wonder why those horizontal jailbars only manifest on a small strip of the screen.
It's due to the black lines in the bricks being to the left of the background. I see this in any game with black lines against a solid background. The more horizontal space the black line takes up, the worse the streaks are across the nearby background color.
One of the cool things about these streaks is that they occur on modern flat screens as well. They even used to happen on the original gameboy.

With those though I suspect it's failing soldering or circuitry whereas on CRTs I think it's an aged cap situation. This is conjecture, though.
pyroman512
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by pyroman512 »

Anyone know potential issues that could cause this?

Image

This happened to me about 6 months ago and I bought a new board and have not used it yet out of fear mostly I would damage that one too.

Initially everything looked good and then as I ran it for awhile over a period of a day of testing or so this started happening.

It does it on every output on every type of sync.

I'd like to fix it so I can use the backup board in my NES toploader.
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FBX
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by FBX »

Question for Tim or others who would know:

Since it causes a lot of confusion with palette slot #3 being the middle position on the toggle switch, would my proposed wiring correction below work to re-arrange the toggle order?

Image

Thanks!

Edit: Come to think of it, it probably will not work since the top diagram shows that palette #2 will show up if both 2 and 3 are grounded at the same time. :-(

Edit 2: I found Tim's palette order chart on his NESRGB page, and unfortunately it will not work because 2+3 both being grounded defaults to palette 2:

Image

Back to the drawing board...
pyroman512
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by pyroman512 »

FBX,

I'm pretty positive your order will work just fine. You can assign any of the three to any of the spots on the switch depending on the wiring. The middle position just needs to be the one shorted to ground. I could be wrong though.

Edit:
Yea after looking at the wire diagram. I see what you mean.
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mikejmoffitt
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by mikejmoffitt »

The horizontal streaks do not occur for the exact same game on the exact same monitors on the exact same connection. The only difference here is a different NESRGB board.
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tzakiel
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by tzakiel »

mikejmoffitt wrote:The horizontal streaks do not occur for the exact same game on the exact same monitors on the exact same connection. The only difference here is a different NESRGB board.
Or a different NES, right? Conceivably something could be bad on the main board or some other part?
Quantum
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Quantum »

tzakiel, can you reproduce the image here? -- http://i.imgur.com/w46tmWf.png
You can go back a page or two to see my chat with tim on diagnosing and fixing this problem.
tzakiel
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by tzakiel »

Quantum wrote:tzakiel, can you reproduce the image here? -- http://i.imgur.com/w46tmWf.png
You can go back a page or two to see my chat with tim on diagnosing and fixing this problem.
I saw that one. Mine doesn't looks that bad at a stage like that. But I'll try to get to that exact screen and see. I noticed the same effect you have on my CRT but not my LCD screen. The screens I posted are visible on both crt and LCD tvs I've tried. But I'll check again, with that spot.
Quantum
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Quantum »

Weird, with mine I could barely notice it on CRT but it was more noticable with OSSC capture to LCD.
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Link83
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Link83 »

FBX wrote:Edit 2: I found Tim's palette order chart on his NESRGB page, and unfortunately it will not work because 2+3 both being grounded defaults to palette 2:

Image

Back to the drawing board...
Hmm, I wonder why Tim choose this order :?

IMO this would make more sense and offer greater flexibility:-
Image


With the current implementation there doesn't appear to be a way to get the P1-P2-P3 order when using a SPDT on-off-on switch. To get the 'correct' order you would have to either re-order the palettes in the firmware, or use a DPDT switch.
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FBX
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by FBX »

Link83 wrote:To get the 'correct' order you would have to either re-order the palettes in the firmware, or use a DPDT switch.
Can it be done with a DPDT? The middle position still has to be palette 3 even on a SPDT. Scroll down to that switch on Tim's web page about it:

https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/switch/

Really the only thing that can be done is to 'pretend' palette slot #2 is actually #3 and vice versa.


-FBX
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Link83
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Link83 »

FBX wrote:
Link83 wrote:To get the 'correct' order you would have to either re-order the palettes in the firmware, or use a DPDT switch.
Can it be done with a DPDT? The middle position still has to be palette 3 even on a SPDT. Scroll down to that switch on Tim's web page about it:

https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/switch/

Really the only thing that can be done is to 'pretend' palette slot #2 is actually #3 and vice versa.


-FBX
Yes it could be done with a three position DPDT on-on-on switch.
First connect Pad 3 to GND on the NESRGB board, then the only bits we need to concentrate on are these:-
Image
Then wire up the switch like this:-
Image
That should give you the correct P1-P2-P3 palette order.

However if Tim could update the firmware with the order I showed above, it would be possible to do the same thing with the SPDT on-off-on switch already included with the NESRGB.
Last edited by Link83 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:56 am, edited 4 times in total.
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FBX
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by FBX »

Link83 wrote: That should give you the correct P1-P2-P3 palette order.
I'm sorry but I'm not seeing it that way. Since 1 and 2 MUST be floating in order to activate palette #3, the middle position is FORCED to be palette 3.
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Link83
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Link83 »

FBX wrote:
Link83 wrote: That should give you the correct P1-P2-P3 palette order.
I'm sorry but I'm not seeing it that way. Since 1 and 2 MUST be floating in order to activate palette #3, the middle position is FORCED to be palette 3.
Hold on I see the issue, give me a minute.
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FBX
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by FBX »

Link83 wrote: Hold on I see the issue, give me a minute.
The issue is exactly as I said: 1 and 2 MUST be floating in order to activate palette 3. That means palette #2 can never be in the middle on these switches. You'd have to rig up more elaborate wiring with multiple switches to pull it off.
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Link83
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Link83 »

FBX wrote:
Link83 wrote: Hold on I see the issue, give me a minute.
The issue is exactly as I said: 1 and 2 MUST be floating in order to activate palette 3. That means palette #2 can never be in the middle on these switches. You'd have to rig up more elaborate wiring with multiple switches to pull it off.
Picture is fixed now, sorry for the error (Its late and i'm a bit tired :roll:)
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FBX
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by FBX »

Link83 wrote:
FBX wrote:
Link83 wrote: Hold on I see the issue, give me a minute.
The issue is exactly as I said: 1 and 2 MUST be floating in order to activate palette 3. That means palette #2 can never be in the middle on these switches. You'd have to rig up more elaborate wiring with multiple switches to pull it off.
Picture is fixed now, sorry for the error (Its late and i'm a bit tired :roll:)
And it's still wrong. You've got 1, 2, and 3 all grounded in Position 1, which turns everything OFF (i.e. No palette is active). As I said, it's impossible to directly wire these switches with palette 2 in the middle because 1 and 2 must be left floating for 3 to work.
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Link83
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Link83 »

FBX wrote:And it's still wrong. You've got 1, 2, and 3 all grounded in Position 1, which turns everything OFF (i.e. No palette is active). As I said, it's impossible to directly wire these switches with palette 3 in the middle because 1 and 2 must be left floating for it to work.
Nope, Pad 2 is not grounded in Position 1 :|
Pad 2 does get conected to two pins in Position 1 due to the wire link, but neither pins are connected to GND.
Hopefully this helps simplify the positions:-
Image

I know that you think its impossible, but please look at the POS. 1/2/3 diagrams carefully.
(and if you still dont believe me, just try wiring up a DPDT on-on-on switch as shown in the diagram)
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by FBX »

Link83 wrote: Nope, Pad 2 is not grounded in Position 1 :|
Ah sorry, for some reason I though both sides were connected in position 1. So here's my next question: If your new diagram works (and it looks like it does), why wouldn't Tim use that diagram on his web page? He has position 3 in the middle again on his page for DPDT switches.
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Link83
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Link83 »

FBX wrote:So here's my next question: If your new diagram works, why wouldn't Tim use that diagram on his web page? He has position 3 in the middle again on his page for DPDT switches.
I really couldn't tell you :? You would be best asking Tim. I mean its possible to have all four 'mode' combinations with just two pads instead of three, so I can only assume there was perhaps some initial plan to offer more than 3 palette choices? I also dont quite understand why Tim choose that particular mode order, especially the addition of the third 'Off' mode.

The mode order table I suggested earlier would make it so that Palette 2 is always in the middle position when wiring a switch with the 'simple' method - it would even work with a SPDT on-off-on switch. I mirrored the 4 'modes' so that Pad 3 is basically a 'modifier' and gives you the same mode choices with entirely the opposite grounded/floating pad combination (e.g. You could select palette 2 by having both pins grounded, or both pins floating, depending on if Pad 3 is grounded or not - hence being a 'modifier') I dont know if Tim would be open to changing the mode order at this stage though?
Last edited by Link83 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
numbski
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by numbski »

Looks like Jackie Chan.


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FBX
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by FBX »

Thanks for finding a solution, Link. I'm in a bit of a dilemma though since the vast majority (if not all) NESRGB installations have palette 3 in the middle, I'd only be solving the issue on my own NES and not anyone else's if I replace the toggle switch with a DPDT one.
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FBX
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by FBX »

Link, I put your diagram up as a solution on my palette page here:

http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

Let me know of that looks kosher. Thanks!

-FBX
leonk
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by leonk »

I tested the game on my older top loader nesrgb. No problem with shadows / streaks. But. I recently got 2 NESRGB boards directly from Tim. One of them installed into a famicom AV and this is what I see when I press the Pause button. Goes away when unpause (but still see shadow as described and shown above)

I tried different PPU. Replaced caps and 7805. I even wired an external port to make sure there are no ground loops. This definitely points to an NESRGB hardware issue. Here it is connected to LCD directly using the composite out but can see it on my pvm via rgb as well.

Image
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FBX
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by FBX »

@ Link83, I ordered the exact model DPDT switch shown on Tim's web site and tossed the original toggle switch 'Yurkie' had used. Those DPDT switches are a bit longer/larger than the single pole switches, so it wasn't going to fit in the same port Yurkie made. I chose a more spacious location for the switch and drilled a new port for it on my NES. After soldering the wires up as per your diagram, I put everything back together and I'm happy to announce it works great! Palette slot #2 is now the middle position, with #1 and #3 working correctly on the left and right sides of it. I also put the switch flush with the bottom and side of the plastic housing, which forces perfect horizontal alignment of the switch and prevents it from ever rotating out of alignment. Here are a couple pics of my finished job on it:

Image

Image

Thanks again for your help on figuring out the wiring scheme!

-FBX
tzakiel
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by tzakiel »

Wow, leonk's result is just like my NES. Are you sure it couldn't just be the NES you tried putting it into? Is there anything that can be done for a bad RGB board if one has this problem? I unfortunately paid for a mod job and not just a rgb board so I'm $190 in for streaks.
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by bobrocks95 »

Wouldn't the large number of similar and recent problems imply that Tim got a bad batch of something on his boards last time he produced them? I've been reading this thread from the start and I don't remember any problems being so widespread/consistent.
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