NESRGB board available now

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starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

elephantthief wrote:Awesome. Just curious, are you in Australia? As I'm in the US, I wonder if I would send to Tim or to the US distributor...
I am in Japan, so shipping between JP/AU is not that long. The exchange completed relatively quickly.

As for other updates from me...

I have now installed a 2231 V3 in my AN-505-BK Famicom Twin as well. It is 95% working - audio/video is perfect, but the In Game Reset function does not respond despite palette changing by controller working. I tested conductivity between the NESRGB board's test points and all of the indicated pins for Famicom Twin and it checks out. All key combinations work except the reset. I pinged Tim to ask if he has any advice and am waiting for a response. Mine is the Turbo model and I noticed he used a non-Turbo model in the guide. I wonder if there's an issue because of the Turbo buttons since that is the only key combo that involves A/B...? I tried with Turbo both on and off for these buttons, but it still doesn't reset. Does anyone have IGR working on Turbo Twin?

Edit: I received the following response from Tim:
viletim wrote:The reset of the Famicom is just a switch to ground connected to pin 3 of the CPU. There's a pull up resistor to +5V inside the chip. The reset output from the NESRGB is an open collector output. You can test it's operation with a voltmeter or LED or something. When you hold down the reset button combination it starts a timer, when you release the button combination the reset output is held low for the same duration. The timer overflows after about 4 seconds.
Based on this i tried the following:

1) I stuck a multimeter in voltage mode in RO and GND test points respectively on the nesrgb board. I booted and tested the key combination. I see the voltage held low like Tim described.
2) Next, i moved the positive probe from the RO test point to holding against the actual reset signal pin where the wire is soldered. I observed the same behavior when pressing the key combination, but the console still doesn't reset.
3) Finally, I pushed in the physical reset button while holding the probe in the same location on the pin. I also saw the voltage drop, but it does actually reset.

So now I'm a bit confused... Does that make any sense to anyone?

Edit 2: My problem is now resolved!

Tim followed up with the following advice:
viletim wrote:Are you sure you have continuity between the NESRGB reset output and pin 3 of the CPU? Also, what is the actual voltage you measure on the reset pad with the NESRGB reset activated? If you have an auto ranging multimeter, you may net to set its range manually to speed up the response time.
This emphasis on the pin 3 connection led me to the correct fix... which was not what i expected. I'm not sure if this is due to a model difference or a typo, but on my board, the correct pin for the reset signal is different than in Tim's instructions.

I am using the AN-505-BK like so: this is a Turbo model. The one featured in Tim's instructions is a non-turbo model.

Image

The instructions for wiring reset were wrong for my board. The pin indicated in Tim's picture is only connected to CPU PIN 3 when the Reset button is physically pressed in - that is why the in-game reset circuit was not working even though I could see the NESRGB doing its thing on my multimeter. I moved it to the one in the row below as shown in this pic - this is correct for my motherboard. This side is always connected to CPU Pin 3, so when the NESRGB routes the RO to ground, it triggers the reset as expected.

Image

My final install looked like this - pic out of case since the Twin install is on the bottom of the motherboard. Everything works perfect. I hijacked the 8-pin DIN connection for RF and wired it to Neo Geo spec as suggested. I am using an HD Retrovision Genesis cable with Neo Geo adapter. My Twin was one of the ones where the factory DIN was not fully pinned, so i had to replace it with the one from Tim's kit.

Image

And here is the NESRGB running my FDS Doki Doki Panic (cell phone pic, so sorry its not quite straight). All is well!

Image

Next up for me will be an OG Famicom, but the one I'm fixing up to install needs some trace repair first. It'll probably be a few days before I'm done. My NESRGB 3.0 is on an HVC-CPU-07 OG Famicom. The one I'm doing this time is GPM type. I did the 3.0 Bakutendo style behind the board, but this time I'm going to try Tim's way with Retrogamerestore's laser cut acrylic eject replacement mechanism which is supposed to have enough clearance for the nesrgb to be installed Tim's way without losing reset. I need to buy some acrylic to cut though.

I'm saving the frontloader for last.... that one is my childhood unit. So I want to have comfortably got all other units working first before I touch my old buddy. If it got broken I'd never forgive myself.
TheRetroCarrot
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TheRetroCarrot »

Looks like these are back in stock today. I'm very confused on what ongoing issues still remain if any in the latest batch? I've skimmed quite a few pages of this thread but with 182 pages it's a little tough to start researching at this point haha. From what I understand the latest revision is the 2238 board and the only remaining issue people regularly run into is a front loader problem where you need to isolate the reset signal which is documented in another thread?

Is there anything else I should be aware of before diving into this, I've recently modded all my systems to RGB and the NES is the last one stuck on composite so I've been looking forward to this restock. But game compatibility or inaccuracy issues aren't worth the image quality improvement to me.

Thanks in advance!
travette
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by travette »

Update, I received both the boards from Tim...but I seemed to have messed something up. On installing the INTFIX board I cut the trace as instructed and removed the resistor. I checked to make sure the appropriate connections were no longer in continuity after I cut the trace. I connected the pcb as per the instructions, but unfortunately I managed to pull the pad off the the PGA side of the nesrgbv4 board... I connected the wire to the via instead, I uncovered it by gently scraping. I tested all the nearby components and it seems that everything is still appropriately in continuity. I also installed the clockfix board, but I removed it after I had the issue for troubleshooting purposes. Anyways I have attached my install and the video out I'm now getting after the botched install. https://imgur.com/a/ooUtHWs

-Here is another picture to show the spot where I pulled the pad off and exposed the via https://imgur.com/a/Cn9MGRU

-edited for additional board picture
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

JemmyPaeg wrote:Looks like these are back in stock today. I'm very confused on what ongoing issues still remain if any in the latest batch? I've skimmed quite a few pages of this thread but with 182 pages it's a little tough to start researching at this point haha. From what I understand the latest revision is the 2238 board and the only remaining issue people regularly run into is a front loader problem where you need to isolate the reset signal which is documented in another thread?

Is there anything else I should be aware of before diving into this, I've recently modded all my systems to RGB and the NES is the last one stuck on composite so I've been looking forward to this restock. But game compatibility or inaccuracy issues aren't worth the image quality improvement to me.

Thanks in advance!
The firmware on those boards is new version 3; its the same as the one Tim put on my RMA'd 2231 boards. It's supposed to have all known issues fixed. I am working through installing in each console type. Have completed AV Famicom and Famicom Twin - currently working on OG Famicom, and then will finish up with a Frontloader and an OpenTendo. I will continue to report on my results as I finish them, but it might be a bit due to limited free time.
travette wrote: -Here is another picture to show the spot where I pulled the pad off and exposed the via https://imgur.com/a/Cn9MGRU

-edited for additional board picture
Ouch, that's really unfortunate. I hope you're able to get it working... Please keep us posted on your progress.

With the FPGA part being so cheap, I don't really understand the logic of developing/producing/deploying these mod boards vs. just replacing FPGAs on RMA for the affected customers, especially when they do not fix all of the problems. In addition to design and testing time for each board, one still has to pay for the boards to be produced and assembled, and then pay to ship them out and risk further complications occurring in the field with the customer install. I would think it'd have been better to just offer to do the RMA service and be done with it... though I guess that depends how many of these were actually sold with the defects that customers were unhappy with. I'm glad Tim agreed to just replace the FPGAs on mine because of color tint being unfixable. The tricky part is, once you start altering the board, if the fixes don't work then just swapping the FPGA is no longer a clean and easy option, as those changes would have to be reverted as well, or the board replaced in its entirety... it just seems.... messy.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

JemmyPaeg wrote:Looks like these are back in stock today. I'm very confused on what ongoing issues still remain if any in the latest batch? I've skimmed quite a few pages of this thread but with 182 pages it's a little tough to start researching at this point haha. From what I understand the latest revision is the 2238 board and the only remaining issue people regularly run into is a front loader problem where you need to isolate the reset signal which is documented in another thread?

Is there anything else I should be aware of before diving into this, I've recently modded all my systems to RGB and the NES is the last one stuck on composite so I've been looking forward to this restock. But game compatibility or inaccuracy issues aren't worth the image quality improvement to me.

Thanks in advance!
Same. I'm waiting for the USA store to get restocked on the 8th, but I don't want to order one if it still has problems or requires a bunch of board modifications. I wish we could get Tim to pop into the thread and clarify, or if they'd have posted info on the store page. Tim is a standup dude, so I can't imagine they'd be listing these latest boards with a bunch of ongoing issues, but dumber things have happened, I suppose.
DejahThoris
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by DejahThoris »

TooBeaucoup wrote:
JemmyPaeg wrote:Looks like these are back in stock today. I'm very confused on what ongoing issues still remain if any in the latest batch? I've skimmed quite a few pages of this thread but with 182 pages it's a little tough to start researching at this point haha. From what I understand the latest revision is the 2238 board and the only remaining issue people regularly run into is a front loader problem where you need to isolate the reset signal which is documented in another thread?

Is there anything else I should be aware of before diving into this, I've recently modded all my systems to RGB and the NES is the last one stuck on composite so I've been looking forward to this restock. But game compatibility or inaccuracy issues aren't worth the image quality improvement to me.

Thanks in advance!
Same. I'm waiting for the USA store to get restocked on the 8th, but I don't want to order one if it still has problems or requires a bunch of board modifications. I wish we could get Tim to pop into the thread and clarify, or if they'd have posted info on the store page. Tim is a standup dude, so I can't imagine they'd be listing these latest boards with a bunch of ongoing issues, but dumber things have happened, I suppose.
I'm also waiting on a bit of info before buying.

I saw the comment that color tint isn't a problem that he intended to fix some pages ago, and don't really want to buy one unless it has been fixed. It's hard to tell if starlightk7 got what everyone else would be getting if they ordered this week, or if they got the only actually fixed ones as they're one of the few people who cared enough to complain out loud.
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Lopenator
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Lopenator »

I'm curious if every 22.31 board had these bugs or if only some of them had them.
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

DejahThoris wrote:I'm also waiting on a bit of info before buying.

I saw the comment that color tint isn't a problem that he intended to fix some pages ago, and don't really want to buy one unless it has been fixed. It's hard to tell if starlightk7 got what everyone else would be getting if they ordered this week, or if they got the only actually fixed ones as they're one of the few people who cared enough to complain out loud.
Color tint was only broken on 2231 V1 firmware. It (and the other problems from 2231) were fixed on the 2238 (V2) firmware according to Tim. He doesn't intend to fix it as a mod board for 2231 V1, but it is fixed in the newer ones. V2 had one regression from 2231 - the frontloader problem. The V3 firmware I have on my fixed 2231 V3s is the same one that is shipping on these new boards; color tint definitely works, its the first thing I tested and compared to my stock NES and NESRGB30. The V3 firmware is also supposed to fix the frontloader issue which is the only known bug on the 2238 boards, but I have not verified that myself yet. I am nervous about that and saving it for last because that unit is my childhood unit that has been with me over 30 years... I don't want it to end up a failed install so I'm stalling a bit myself..... It is not known if there are any new regressions with this firmware version.

They are all the exact same nesrgb boards pcb wise minus date stamp and installed firmware. The only difference is that the FPGA Tim is using is a 1 time flash only model; that's why the rest of us cant just update unfortunately. As the problems came up and he fixed them, any new units are receiving the fixes- its just hard with this design to fix the old ones. Leftovers in the 2231 batch got the 2238 fixes too (the ones with V2 written on the chip).

But that fpga chip is also dirt cheap - a mere $7 on digikey/mouser without any bulk purchase discount, and readily in stock. That's why I don't understand why we're not just RMA'ing these for the fix. At that price I'd even have paid the $7 myself just to have it fixed properly. If I was selling the product, I'd also prefer that to be the solution. It's more time on my part - but more time/money than developing, testing, and deploying mod boards for hard to repro problems with tons of hardware variants in the field? I doubt it. And then the ability to be sure the fix worked would be in my hands to certify. If the customer messes up installing a complicated mod board (or damages their console or board trying to do so) - then it just digs a deeper hole of dissatisfaction. I don't think that's a good business strategy personally. But it's not my call to make.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

starlightk7 wrote:The V3 firmware is also supposed to fix the frontloader issue which is the only known bug on the 2238 boards.
What was the frontloader bug?
DejahThoris
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by DejahThoris »

starlightk7 wrote:
DejahThoris wrote:I'm also waiting on a bit of info before buying.

I saw the comment that color tint isn't a problem that he intended to fix some pages ago, and don't really want to buy one unless it has been fixed. It's hard to tell if starlightk7 got what everyone else would be getting if they ordered this week, or if they got the only actually fixed ones as they're one of the few people who cared enough to complain out loud.
Color tint was only broken on 2231 V1 firmware. It (and the other problems from 2231) were fixed on the 2238 (V2) firmware according to Tim. He doesn't intend to fix it as a mod board for 2231 V1, but it is fixed in the newer ones. V2 had one regression from 2231 - the frontloader problem. The V3 firmware I have on my fixed 2231 V3s is the same one that is shipping on these new boards; color tint definitely works, its the first thing I tested and compared to my stock NES and NESRGB30. The V3 firmware is also supposed to fix the frontloader issue which is the only known bug on the 2238 boards, but I have not verified that myself yet. I am nervous about that and saving it for last because that unit is my childhood unit that has been with me over 30 years... I don't want it to end up a failed install so I'm stalling a bit myself..... It is not known if there are any new regressions with this firmware version.

They are all the exact same nesrgb boards pcb wise minus date stamp and installed firmware. The only difference is that the FPGA Tim is using is a 1 time flash only model; that's why the rest of us cant just update unfortunately. As the problems came up and he fixed them, any new units are receiving the fixes- its just hard with this design to fix the old ones. Leftovers in the 2231 batch got the 2238 fixes too (the ones with V2 written on the chip).

But that fpga chip is also dirt cheap - a mere $7 on digikey/mouser without any bulk purchase discount, and readily in stock. That's why I don't understand why we're not just RMA'ing these for the fix. At that price I'd even have paid the $7 myself just to have it fixed properly. If I was selling the product, I'd also prefer that to be the solution. It's more time on my part - but more time/money than developing, testing, and deploying mod boards for hard to repro problems with tons of hardware variants in the field? I doubt it. And then the ability to be sure the fix worked would be in my hands to certify. If the customer messes up installing a complicated mod board (or damages their console or board trying to do so) - then it just digs a deeper hole of dissatisfaction. I don't think that's a good business strategy personally. But it's not my call to make.
Thank you for taking the time to explain!
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

TooBeaucoup wrote:What was the frontloader bug?
See here: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.p ... 1#p1511761

There was a race condition with the power-on circuit that caused the palette to not initialize and needed a workaround that required isolating the reset circuit and updating the MCU firmware (which is flashable).

Hopefully there are no regressions like this on the V3 firmware. But to be fair to Tim - there's some many subvariants of all this hardware - there are many models of the motherboards out there that all may have their own quirks. Having some bumps here and there is not really avoidable.... however, that's where I think the one-time flash FPGA config was a huge mistake. If the FPGA was reflashable like on earlier NESRGBs, we'd have just updated firmware and been fixed. It's only hard because we cant do that. The FPGA Tim chose is very cheap and very widely available in large quantities - thats how he's been able to get 3 sizable batches out now in the last 6 months despite the supply chain issues. However, this chip is also able to be put in a reflashable mode - but it requires an external memory chip to load the firmware from to do so. It's the internal memory of the FPGA that is one-time flash only. That would've raised the per-board cost, but as a customer, I'd rather have paid a few bucks more and had an upgradable unit. The NESRGB itself isn't that expensive compared to a lot of the mods out there today, so I don't think a few bucks more would've been a dealbreaker for most people. Non-flashable also means that if improved palettes come out in the future, unlike earlier NESRGB models we can't receive them via firmware update. The 6 we have are the 6 we have.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

starlightk7 wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:What was the frontloader bug?
See here: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.p ... 1#p1511761

There was a race condition with the power-on circuit that caused the palette to not initialize and needed a workaround that required isolating the reset circuit and updating the MCU firmware (which is flashable).

Hopefully there are no regressions like this on the V3 firmware. But to be fair to Tim - there's some many subvariants of all this hardware - there are many models of the motherboards out there that all may have their own quirks. Having some bumps here and there is not really avoidable.... however, that's where I think the one-time flash FPGA config was a huge mistake. If the FPGA was reflashable like on earlier NESRGBs, we'd have just updated firmware and been fixed. It's only hard because we cant do that. The FPGA Tim chose is very cheap and very widely available in large quantities - thats how he's been able to get 3 sizable batches out now in the last 6 months despite the supply chain issues. However, this chip is also able to be put in a reflashable mode - but it requires an external memory chip to load the firmware from to do so. It's the internal memory of the FPGA that is one-time flash only. That would've raised the per-board cost, but as a customer, I'd rather have paid a few bucks more and had an upgradable unit. The NESRGB itself isn't that expensive compared to a lot of the mods out there today, so I don't think a few bucks more would've been a dealbreaker for most people. Non-flashable also means that if improved palettes come out in the future, unlike earlier NESRGB models we can't receive them via firmware update. The 6 we have are the 6 we have.
Thanks. Seems like I just have to order and cross my fingers. lol
travette
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by travette »

travette wrote:Update, I received both the boards from Tim...but I seemed to have messed something up. On installing the INTFIX board I cut the trace as instructed and removed the resistor. I checked to make sure the appropriate connections were no longer in continuity after I cut the trace. I connected the pcb as per the instructions, but unfortunately I managed to pull the pad off the the PGA side of the nesrgbv4 board... I connected the wire to the via instead, I uncovered it by gently scraping. I tested all the nearby components and it seems that everything is still appropriately in continuity. I also installed the clockfix board, but I removed it after I had the issue for troubleshooting purposes. Anyways I have attached my install and the video out I'm now getting after the botched install. https://imgur.com/a/ooUtHWs

-Here is another picture to show the spot where I pulled the pad off and exposed the via https://imgur.com/a/Cn9MGRU

-edited for additional board picture
I've been looking at the board and I really can't find what I messed up. I've redone the wiring several times, and the INTFIX board appears to be in continuity with the FPGA chip despite the ripped pad... I took out the clockfix board to make sure that isn't the issue. I can't find any other continuity issues or shorts. Maybe I damaged the PPU when I lifted it off the board to cut the trace? I was pretty gentle though and have a desolder gun... Only thing I can think of now is to take the PPU out and pop it into the NES without the mod board again to make sure it still works. I still do get sound, but no matter what game I put in I get that same weird picture I linked above. Also it seems I can no longer disable the board and get a composite signal, I can still reset the console with controller inputs though.

I have a second NES and a friend who potentially wants an RGB nes so I did buy another board.....I feel like I'm crazy at this point
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Lopenator
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Lopenator »

Do you think we could just buy the 7$ chip and flash it ourselves and install it?
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

travette wrote:I've been looking at the board and I really can't find what I messed up. I've redone the wiring several times, and the INTFIX board appears to be in continuity with the FPGA chip despite the ripped pad... I took out the clockfix board to make sure that isn't the issue. I can't find any other continuity issues or shorts. Maybe I damaged the PPU when I lifted it off the board to cut the trace? I was pretty gentle though and have a desolder gun... Only thing I can think of now is to take the PPU out and pop it into the NES without the mod board again to make sure it still works. I still do get sound, but no matter what game I put in I get that same weird picture I linked above. Also it seems I can no longer disable the board and get a composite signal, I can still reset the console with controller inputs though.

I have a second NES and a friend who potentially wants an RGB nes so I did buy another board.....I feel like I'm crazy at this point
Oh man, that's the kind of scenario that has me terrified to touch my front-loader after all this... I think I'll do the OpenTendo first...

I hope your PPU is alive. They are usually pretty tough from my experience; so hopefully it's ok and its something with the board mod.
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by DejahThoris »

travette wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/ooUtHWs

-Here is another picture to show the spot where I pulled the pad off and exposed the via https://imgur.com/a/Cn9MGRU

I feel like I'm crazy at this point
Some of that soldering is fairly dodgy.

I'd look at going over your work a few times. Especially the PPU and adapter board.

Also make sure that your checking continuity on your wiring isn't checking one end of the wire to the other, but the pad to the other pad or an adjacent component in the circuit. Knowing the wire is intact isn't the same as knowing it's making a solid connection on each end.
travette
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by travette »

DejahThoris wrote:
travette wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/ooUtHWs

-Here is another picture to show the spot where I pulled the pad off and exposed the via https://imgur.com/a/Cn9MGRU

I feel like I'm crazy at this point
Some of that soldering is fairly dodgy.

I'd look at going over your work a few times. Especially the PPU and adapter board.

Also make sure that your checking continuity on your wiring isn't checking one end of the wire to the other, but the pad to the other pad or an adjacent component in the circuit. Knowing the wire is intact isn't the same as knowing it's making a solid connection on each end.
I don't disagree, I've been slowly getting better at this. I'll probably redo it again. Also good point about making sure it's the pad in continuity and not the wire. I'll double check that as well. I've been trying to do that when I check continuity, but who knows at this point. Appreciate the input.
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

Lopenator wrote:Do you think we could just buy the 7$ chip and flash it ourselves and install it?
Not really. You would need Tim to be willing to give you the firmware to flash, you'd need the hardware to flash it and the know-how of the process for it. Then you'd need the appropriate reflow equipment and experience. It's not an intro to soldering level job. If you have the right equipment it's not a hard job, but the tooling to do it right isn't cheap. You could take the old one off with a hot air station pretty easily, but you'd really want to use a reflow oven to put the new one on. The pins are so small that you'd risk shorting it doing it by hand, and you'd need to adequately check for shorts before powering it on. Shorted pins can damage the overall unit depending on what gets shorted. The firmware is encrypted so you can't just dump it from the old one to flash (and you wouldnt want the same buggy version anyways), or from another unit.

That is one of the advantages for Tim of the current design. Since it's encrypted and never leaves the chip it runs on, it's harder to extract the firmware, which in turn makes it harder to clone the hardware. You can't try to snoop on the firmware load like you could if it was loading from external chip. At that point, I'd just ask him to replace the chip for you if the problems bother you that much; if I were him, I'd prefer to do that rather than support someone trying to do it themselves. Though, whether he's willing or not is another question. I think it's good business and a good customer satisfaction measure. But I'm also keenly aware that I probably only got replaced because I filed the paypal claim - which the window is rapidly expiring if not already expired for anyone on 2231.
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Lopenator
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Lopenator »

I can install the chip and flash it. I have the tools. I need the firmware though.

Maybe he be willing to send me a flashed chip.
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by viletim »

travette wrote:Update, I received both the boards from Tim...but I seemed to have messed something up. On installing the INTFIX board I cut the trace as instructed and removed the resistor. I checked to make sure the appropriate connections were no longer in continuity after I cut the trace. I connected the pcb as per the instructions, but unfortunately I managed to pull the pad off the the PGA side of the nesrgbv4 board... I connected the wire to the via instead, I uncovered it by gently scraping. I tested all the nearby components and it seems that everything is still appropriately in continuity. I also installed the clockfix board, but I removed it after I had the issue for troubleshooting purposes. Anyways I have attached my install and the video out I'm now getting after the botched install. https://imgur.com/a/ooUtHWs

-Here is another picture to show the spot where I pulled the pad off and exposed the via https://imgur.com/a/Cn9MGRU

-edited for additional board picture
1) Start with bypassing the INTFIX board. Disconnect the wire from the PGA pad an connect it to the BG pad. This way the BG pad is connected to both sides of the resistor on the NESRGB board.

2) Bad connections... Check the continuity between the PPU pins an the motherboard. All except 2-9 and 14-18 are supposed to connect through. I guess you have probably checked this already.

3) Failed parts... parts often fail with an input or output shorted to ground. Check for short circuits on the digital buses. Take off the cartridge connector, use a multimeter in resistance mode, measure between ground and each digital signal pin in turn. All should measure either a rather high value (>100k ohms) or simply infinite, except /IRQ and PPU A13 as detailed below. The exact value you measure isn't important. You are looking for a pin that measure much less than all the others.

Image
Image

Code: Select all

  (front/top)           (back/bottom)
       NES  | Cart slot  |    NES
               -------
       +5V -- |36   72| -- GND
              |35   71|
              |34   70|
    PPU D3 <> |33   69| <> PPU D4
    PPU D2 <> |32   68| <> PPU D5
    PPU D1 <> |31   67| <> PPU D6
    PPU D0 <> |30   66| <> PPU D7
    PPU A0 -> |29   65| <- PPU A13
    PPU A1 -> |28   64| <- PPU A12
    PPU A2 -> |27   63| <- PPU A10
    PPU A3 -> |26   62| <- PPU A11
    PPU A4 -> |25   61| <- PPU A9
    PPU A5 -> |24   60| <- PPU A8
    PPU A6 -> |23   59| <- PPU A7
 CIRAM A10 <- |22   58| <- PPU /A13
   PPU /RD -> |21   57| -> CIRAM /CE
              |20   56| <- PPU /WR
              |19   55|
              |18   54|
              |17   53|
              |16   52|
      /IRQ <- |15   51|
   CPU R/W -> |14   50| <- /ROMSEL (/A15 + /M2)
    CPU A0 -> |13   49| <> CPU D0
    CPU A1 -> |12   48| <> CPU D1
    CPU A2 -> |11   47| <> CPU D2
    CPU A3 -> |10   46| <> CPU D3
    CPU A4 -> |09   45| <> CPU D4
    CPU A5 -> |08   44| <> CPU D5
    CPU A6 -> |07   43| <> CPU D6
    CPU A7 -> |06   42| <> CPU D7
    CPU A8 -> |05   41| <- CPU A14
    CPU A9 -> |04   40| <- CPU A13
   CPU A10 -> |03   39| <- CPU A12
   CPU A11 -> |02   38| <- M2
       GND -- |01   37|
               -------
            
 /IRQ (pin 15) measures about 10k (due to a pull up resistor)
 PPU A13 (pin 65) measures about 7k (due to a pull up resistor)
 all the rest should be >100k
            
            
             PPU
           .--\/--.
           |01  40|
 CPU D0 <> |02  39| -> ALE
 CPU D1 <> |03  38|
 CPU D2 <> |04  37|
 CPU D3 <> |05  36|
 CPU D4 <> |06  35|
 CPU D5 <> |07  34|
 CPU D6 <> |08  33|
 CPU D7 <> |09  32|
           |10  31|
           |11  30|
           |12  29|
           |13  28|
           |14  27|
           |15  26|
           |16  25|
           |17  24|
           |18  23|
           |19  22|
    GND -- |20  21|
           `------' 
The NESRGB sits between the CPU D0-7 and PPU D0-7, so you should measure these nine PPU pins too. Ignore the unlabelled ones.

If all tests are inconclusive then remove the PPU from the NESRGB board and plut in directly into the NES. If it works, the NESRGB is faultly and needs replacing.
User avatar
TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Tim, are the latest NES RGB boards on your site fixed and working appropriately?
travette
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:36 am

Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by travette »

viletim wrote:
travette wrote:Update, I received both the boards from Tim...but I seemed to have messed something up. On installing the INTFIX board I cut the trace as instructed and removed the resistor. I checked to make sure the appropriate connections were no longer in continuity after I cut the trace. I connected the pcb as per the instructions, but unfortunately I managed to pull the pad off the the PGA side of the nesrgbv4 board... I connected the wire to the via instead, I uncovered it by gently scraping. I tested all the nearby components and it seems that everything is still appropriately in continuity. I also installed the clockfix board, but I removed it after I had the issue for troubleshooting purposes. Anyways I have attached my install and the video out I'm now getting after the botched install. https://imgur.com/a/ooUtHWs

-Here is another picture to show the spot where I pulled the pad off and exposed the via https://imgur.com/a/Cn9MGRU

-edited for additional board picture
1) Start with bypassing the INTFIX board. Disconnect the wire from the PGA pad an connect it to the BG pad. This way the BG pad is connected to both sides of the resistor on the NESRGB board.

2) Bad connections... Check the continuity between the PPU pins an the motherboard. All except 2-9 and 14-18 are supposed to connect through. I guess you have probably checked this already.

3) Failed parts... parts often fail with an input or output shorted to ground. Check for short circuits on the digital buses. Take off the cartridge connector, use a multimeter in resistance mode, measure between ground and each digital signal pin in turn. All should measure either a rather high value (>100k ohms) or simply infinite, except /IRQ and PPU A13 as detailed below. The exact value you measure isn't important. You are looking for a pin that measure much less than all the others.

Image
Image

Code: Select all

  (front/top)           (back/bottom)
       NES  | Cart slot  |    NES
               -------
       +5V -- |36   72| -- GND
              |35   71|
              |34   70|
    PPU D3 <> |33   69| <> PPU D4
    PPU D2 <> |32   68| <> PPU D5
    PPU D1 <> |31   67| <> PPU D6
    PPU D0 <> |30   66| <> PPU D7
    PPU A0 -> |29   65| <- PPU A13
    PPU A1 -> |28   64| <- PPU A12
    PPU A2 -> |27   63| <- PPU A10
    PPU A3 -> |26   62| <- PPU A11
    PPU A4 -> |25   61| <- PPU A9
    PPU A5 -> |24   60| <- PPU A8
    PPU A6 -> |23   59| <- PPU A7
 CIRAM A10 <- |22   58| <- PPU /A13
   PPU /RD -> |21   57| -> CIRAM /CE
              |20   56| <- PPU /WR
              |19   55|
              |18   54|
              |17   53|
              |16   52|
      /IRQ <- |15   51|
   CPU R/W -> |14   50| <- /ROMSEL (/A15 + /M2)
    CPU A0 -> |13   49| <> CPU D0
    CPU A1 -> |12   48| <> CPU D1
    CPU A2 -> |11   47| <> CPU D2
    CPU A3 -> |10   46| <> CPU D3
    CPU A4 -> |09   45| <> CPU D4
    CPU A5 -> |08   44| <> CPU D5
    CPU A6 -> |07   43| <> CPU D6
    CPU A7 -> |06   42| <> CPU D7
    CPU A8 -> |05   41| <- CPU A14
    CPU A9 -> |04   40| <- CPU A13
   CPU A10 -> |03   39| <- CPU A12
   CPU A11 -> |02   38| <- M2
       GND -- |01   37|
               -------
            
 /IRQ (pin 15) measures about 10k (due to a pull up resistor)
 PPU A13 (pin 65) measures about 7k (due to a pull up resistor)
 all the rest should be >100k
            
            
             PPU
           .--\/--.
           |01  40|
 CPU D0 <> |02  39| -> ALE
 CPU D1 <> |03  38|
 CPU D2 <> |04  37|
 CPU D3 <> |05  36|
 CPU D4 <> |06  35|
 CPU D5 <> |07  34|
 CPU D6 <> |08  33|
 CPU D7 <> |09  32|
           |10  31|
           |11  30|
           |12  29|
           |13  28|
           |14  27|
           |15  26|
           |16  25|
           |17  24|
           |18  23|
           |19  22|
    GND -- |20  21|
           `------' 
The NESRGB sits between the CPU D0-7 and PPU D0-7, so you should measure these nine PPU pins too. Ignore the unlabelled ones.

If all tests are inconclusive then remove the PPU from the NESRGB board and plut in directly into the NES. If it works, the NESRGB is faultly and needs replacing.
Tim,

Thank you for taking the time to post all of this. It works now! I desoldered everything and tested the PPU first, which worked. I then proceeded to put everything back together. I think the culprit was a small piece of debris which shorted between pins D4-D5. Must have got in there when I lifted the PPU up to cut the trace, since was working before I attempted the mod board install. Board is working with the INTFIX board now, and I went ahead and installed the clockfix board. Both seem to be working together, and it appears I am no longer getting the 1 pixel shift from the clock issue. It also seems to help with the palate instability issue, it took longer to occur before I started having issues. I'm going to go ahead and put a capacitor back and see if that fixes it again.

It appears my install issues were user error, but I guess that's part of the learning process. Appreciate all the help.
viletim
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Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by viletim »

TooBeaucoup wrote:Tim, are the latest NES RGB boards on your site fixed and working appropriately?
Yes, all good now.
User avatar
TooBeaucoup
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:31 am

Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

viletim wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:Tim, are the latest NES RGB boards on your site fixed and working appropriately?
Yes, all good now.
I appreciate the response. I'm going to grab one from the U.S. site when they go live.
starlightk7
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:09 pm

Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

I completed my OG Famicom install late last night...err, early this morning haha. I used a HVC-CPU-GPM-02 model Famicom for this install (my NESRGB3.0 is an HVC-CPU-07 type). I had to do some up front repair work as the unit I was restoring to upgrade had some trace damage on both sides of the 74LS139 socket that rendered the unit broken. For the most part I rebuilt the original trace paths using either copper foil tape or enameled copper wire and then covered it with some new mask, but I ended up having to run alternate bodge wire of my own on the back to connect to the S-RAM as that trace was an intermediate layer trace... I had managed to reconnect the original of that one, but unfortunately it wouldnt stay connected while soldering due to how weak the connect grip was and I couldn't get a better connection on it because the ground layer was immediately overtop and scraping away more would've caused a short..

I socketed all chips on the board while repairing the machine so that it can also serve as a test bed / debug unit. I had originally intended to try Retro Game Restore's new low profile acrylic eject mechanism to keep ejection functionality without doing the Bakutendo mod, but due to putting socket's on the logic chips as well, I had to stack two sockets on top of each other in the PPU slot to have sufficient clearance to mount the NESRGB. That left insufficient room even for the low profile eject. Actually barely made it into the case... but it did fit. For the 2nd layer of ppu socket and the one on the NESRGB I used dual leaf sockets instead of the turn pin ones as they sit slightly lower. That gave me *just* enough space to squeeze in with everything socketed, with mild shell trimming for the ppu as noted in Tim's guide.

Currently I wired this unit for S-Video as I don't have 8-pin DIN cables... I preferably want it to use a 9-PIN Genesis 2 DIN so that I can share cables, so I think I'm gonna swap the power/audio board with RGR's new one that is coming out soon, as that supports 9-pin SEGA layout as well as USB-C power; then I can use the unit with my existing HD Retrovision cables (I think 9-pin support would be a nice addition for a future revision of the PA board).

Image

Image

Image

That just leaves my frontloader and opentendo.I gotta take a break for a bit to finish tax stuff that's due in about a week, so it may be several days before I do my front-loader install.
lordixidor
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:11 am

Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by lordixidor »

hello friends, does anyone know how to solve this dislocated pixel?
my support applied the clock fix, but it doesn't seem to have worked.

dislocated:
Image

normal:
Image

Edited:
The Clock Buffer seems to be working and fixed the sync bug that caused the screen to flicker at times.

This dislocated pixel seems to occur mainly on everdrive. I believe this is another issue, I hope the 220pF cap between pin 13 and ground of the PPU as suggested can be the solution.
Last edited by lordixidor on Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:01 pm, edited 6 times in total.
User avatar
Lopenator
Posts: 214
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Lopenator »

Your images don't work for me.
User avatar
Kez
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:09 am

Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Kez »

Here
Dislocated:
Spoiler
Image
Normal:
Spoiler
Image
starlightk7
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:09 pm

Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

Can we get some pics of the install?
lordixidor
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:11 am

Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by lordixidor »

jkuch77 wrote:
viletim wrote:As far as I can tell there are two separate problems that some people are having with version 4.

Colour changing bug.
I found that the Super Mario Bros 3 map screen is a good test for this as it continually updates the palette without any user input. If the conditions are just right the palette ram access will fail and palette indexes will either be black or an entirely wrong colour. It seems this can be fixed by placing a small capacitor (47pf seems to work best) between pin 13 (CE#) of the PPU and ground.

PPU sync bug.
The NESRGB will sync to the PPU ok during start up, but will lose sync by itself at some point. It seems to happen more often when an Everdrive cartridge is used. It looks like the images moves left and right by about 1 pixel and there are colour fringes on the edges of graphics. Here's a video of the symptom. I haven't been able to reproduce this one yet, but I suspect some kind of clock buffer circuit will be required to solve it.
Lopenator wrote:I don't know if I'm experiencing the color change bug. The ppu sync bug is exactly what happens to me in your video. Maybe I don't need to add a capacitor to the ppu in my case?
Same here. The issue in the video is exactly what I was experiencing. I received the 220pF 50V ceramic capacitor (Part#K221J15C0GF5TL2) today that I had ordered from Mouser per Tim's suggestion and soldered it between pins 13 and 20 of the PPU. I have been playing the same games that I saw the issue with before for the past 4 hours or so and the issue seems to be gone now. Again, this is on a NTSC NES Front Loader with the Everdrive N8 Pro in case this helps someone else experiencing this issue with the NESRGB v4.
Are you still using the 220pF cap?
My issue is the same using an N8 everdrive.
I will try this fix.
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