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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:36 pm 



Joined: 20 Oct 2013
Posts: 2
I wanted to chime in.

For the love of god, why the fuck would anyone "desolder" dip package chips with a hot air gun. I guess it gets the job done, but you're putting way to much stress on the board and you look like a caveman using the wrong tools for these complicated jobs. Its almost as bad as using radio shack anything.

Buy a desoldering iron and do it properly. With a hakko 808, some flux,and some solder you can do this mod professionally, safely, and the right way.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:11 pm 



Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 168
leonk wrote:
You guys realize that standard circuit board IC's are rated at 85C max. More commercial industrial ones are rated at 105C.

That's operating temperature, not storage temperature. If you can't heat the components above 85℃, how are you going to solder surface mount components? :)


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:12 pm 


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Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 3010
Location: UK
Quote:
Any one in the uk able to fit one of these for me please? (For some money obviously) :D


I'm interested in ordering a couple to see if that's viable for my technician friend/business partner to do as a service. I know he'll want to try one one out before offering it to anyone else though.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:30 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1026
Location: Toronto, Canada
mufunyo wrote:
leonk wrote:
You guys realize that standard circuit board IC's are rated at 85C max. More commercial industrial ones are rated at 105C.

That's operating temperature, not storage temperature. If you can't heat the components above 85℃, how are you going to solder surface mount components? :)


Components are never heated above 85C!! Only the solder around the legs are for a second or less, 1 pin at a time. The PPU never reaches 85C! Also, with a hot air gun, how can one guarantee that all the other components around the PPU don't get damaged!? You can't! Just cause it luckily worked before doesn't mean it's right!

Ok. That's all I have to say about this subject. I'll be ordering some kits and giving it a shot. Stay tuned for some pics of my personal custom install. Hope it inspires others in the forum.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:15 pm 



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 647
Ordered one with an adapter. Just need to track down a top loader now.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:34 pm 



Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 168
leonk wrote:
Components are never heated above 85C!!

Heating the entire PCB with its components in an oven is standard for SMT (Surface Mount Technology). See also Reflow soldering.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:39 am 



Joined: 10 Sep 2010
Posts: 7
Drakon wrote:
installed sockets for the cpu, ppu, and the two ram chips


what for?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:41 am 


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Posts: 411
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defor wrote:
Drakon wrote:
installed sockets for the cpu, ppu, and the two ram chips


what for?

System was completely dead on arrival so after testing the power board I was testing the chips. Turned out to be a dead ram chip it's now revived.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:29 am 


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Joined: 19 Oct 2013
Posts: 314
Viletim, 2 questions:

1.) Is the extra voltage regulator purely a precaution, or did you actually experience overheating issues with the NES's 7805 when only using it? (If so I'd rather just put a bigger heatsink on it to reduce the amount of wires)

2.) Can the palette switch be used during gameplay, or does the NES have to be reset for the palette changes to take effect?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:51 am 



Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 20
Nice work Viletim. I'll be placing an order for several boards soon.

@cr4zymanz0r, I believe the extra regulator is done as a precaution. It's meant to off load additional work from the onboard regulator to prevent it from overheating and burning out. A bigger heatsink isn't the answer just to avoid soldering in a few more wires.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:10 am 


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Posts: 314
shadowkn55 wrote:
Nice work Viletim. I'll be placing an order for several boards soon.

@cr4zymanz0r, I believe the extra regulator is done as a precaution. It's meant to off load additional work from the onboard regulator to prevent it from overheating and burning out. A bigger heatsink isn't the answer just to avoid soldering in a few more wires.


The RGB board would place a bigger load on the 7805 voltage regulator without the additional regulator. I'm pretty sure the 7805 could handle the load, but that would make it run hotter. The 7805 heatsink in the front loader NES is pretty small, so I can understand Viletim being concerned about the extra load on it and including another regulator. Putting a larger heatsink on the original 7805 would make it dissipate heat better and run a larger load safely.

He actually has a jumper on the RGB board that can set it to use the 7805 regulator in the NES, so having this option would make no sense if a suitable sized heatsink wouldn't solve the overheating issue. I'm just curious if viletim actually experienced overheating issues when only using the NES's regulator, or if he was just playing it safe and being cautious by including the secondary regulator.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:13 am 


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Posts: 411
Location: Toronto Canada
cr4zymanz0r wrote:
shadowkn55 wrote:
Nice work Viletim. I'll be placing an order for several boards soon.

@cr4zymanz0r, I believe the extra regulator is done as a precaution. It's meant to off load additional work from the onboard regulator to prevent it from overheating and burning out. A bigger heatsink isn't the answer just to avoid soldering in a few more wires.


The RGB board would place a bigger load on the 7805 voltage regulator without the additional regulator. I'm pretty sure the 7805 could handle the load, but that would make it run hotter. The 7805 heatsink in the front loader NES is pretty small, so I can understand Viletim being concerned about the extra load on it and including another regulator. Putting a larger heatsink on the original 7805 would make it dissipate heat better and run a larger load safely.

He actually has a jumper on the RGB board that can set it to use the 7805 regulator in the NES, so having this option would make no sense if a suitable sized heatsink wouldn't solve the overheating issue. I'm just curious if viletim actually experienced overheating issues when only using the NES's regulator, or if he was just playing it safe and being cautious by including the secondary regulator.

I did a marathon run with my twin using the nesrgb kit and the famicom n8, it was fine, but the heatsink is pretty huge in that thing.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:22 am 


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Wait....is this running 2 7805's in parallel with the NES main PCB? If that's the case, this is a very bad idea as both regulators will be fighting over regulating the voltage and can destroy the other.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:25 am 



Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 20
I'm fully aware of how power draw works and the heat dissipation involved. If you're concerned about heat, you can try this replacement part. It's a little more touchy than the 7805 but it's more efficient. You still need to make sure that the power draw is still less than 1 amp. That's the max output of the 7805 and 2940. If the nes by itself is already pushing close to 1amp, a separate regulator is the safest choice. These regulators can do a burst output higher than 1 amp but at sustained lengths of time it will result in component failure.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread ... eplacement

@Drakon, see what I did there? I offered some criticism AND provided relevant information. That's something you often fail to do. Like here:

http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?to ... 2#msg31602

I've solved the problem you weren't interested in answering in lengthy detail here.

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthrea ... ost3604310

In case you want to accuse me of choosing an old post with that attitude. Here's one from your personal forums, June 25, 2013.

http://16bitgamer.forumotion.ca/t252p15 ... -snes-mini

Drakon wrote:
OnyxDomain it's clear that you have zero understanding of how any of this works and what these things do. I suggest you google, or hire someone who knows how these things work.


I'm quoting you here because you have a habit of removing incriminating evidence on your own forums. This poor dude (OnyxDomain) clearly looks like he knows bits of information but can't quite put the pieces together. I thought the whole point of having a console modding forum like yours was to help each other out. You look like you want him to give up and contact you to finish the job. You defense is not wanting him to fry more hardware. The system BELONGS TO HIM, what he wants to do with it is his privilege. At least if things go awry, it's his loss and he doesn't have to report the bad news to a customer.

Drakon wrote:
My holes are straight, and my work is getting better. There are quite a number of satisfied customers. I do try to improve at my own pace. Of course if you're going to judge me based on one job gone wrong I can see your point of view. Anyway I'd love to take polite suggestions by pm if you have any.


You've been around since at least 2010. That's plenty of time to clean up act in more than one ways. I no have problem with people taking their time to improve themselves. Just don't do it on other people's dimes and hardware. Don't experiment new techniques and skills on other people's belongings. If you are, take full responsibility for your mistakes. Offering a partial (or even full) refunds of modding costs and returning damaged goods is the ultimate sign of disrespect. If I took my car in for an oil change and the mechanic punctured my fueling take by accident, I'd be f-ing pissed off if he said the oil change was free of charge and said oops on the fuel tank and didn't fix it. You need to replace everything that was damaged by you even if you're taking the entire job as a loss. That's the price of inexperience and unwillingness to improve oneself.

I'm not solely basing my criticisms on just one job. You continually post pictures of your work and it's horrendous. I can't tell if you're posting them as a badge of honor or bragging that someone paid you any amount of money for this hack job.

We've been giving you polite suggestions this entire time. You just brush them off and continue your poor practices. Offering you tips through PM would be a disservice to the community. We should be openly sharing out modding techniques so everyone can improve. Of course if you want private lessons, I can give a very competitive rate. How's $175 sound? Let me know if that figure rings a bell.

Here's a tip for the future. When mounting connectors and switches, find panel mount ones that fasten with screws and/or nuts. That way, you don't need hot glue to reinforce it's stability. Tightening them down is more than enough. http://www.digikey.com and http://www.jameco.com have plenty to choose from.

These are panel mount alternatives the MiniDin8 that Viletim provides in the kit. The second one is better because it's less dependent on the thickness of the plastic wall and looks cleaner but it doesn't come with the screws or nuts. The first one comes with a nut but if the plastic is too thick, it won't screw on.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... -ND/352864

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... -ND/135502


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:39 am 


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Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Posts: 847
Location: San Jose, CA
Isn't the voltage regulator heat sink also connected to the metal shielding of the RF/AV box?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:50 am 


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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5485
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
Drakon wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:
Any idea of how long it may take for this to be available for top loaders?

He already has the necessary adapter for sale on his website for 8$.



Sorry for being so hardware clueless, but so with the adapter, this will all fit inside the top loader? No outside boxes or plugs?
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:52 am 



Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 20
ApolloBoy wrote:
Isn't the voltage regulator heat sink also connected to the metal shielding of the RF/AV box?


It could be. I think the more important question is power draw from a stock nes vs one with the board installed.

Drakon wrote:
I did a marathon run with my twin using the nesrgb kit and the famicom n8, it was fine, but the heatsink is pretty huge in that thing.


I can red line my car for a week straight but it doesn't mean that it'll do wonders for the engine longevity. We need someone with a watt meter and find the power draw so we can put this to rest.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:01 am 


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Posts: 434
Location: Texas, USA
evil_ash_xero wrote:
Drakon wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:
Any idea of how long it may take for this to be available for top loaders?

He already has the necessary adapter for sale on his website for 8$.



Sorry for being so hardware clueless, but so with the adapter, this will all fit inside the top loader? No outside boxes or plugs?


Yes, it makes it so the rgb board moves over to the left a bit. Drakon posted a pic of what it looks like without the adaptor on page 6.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:24 am 


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Location: Where the fish lives, WV
Good to hear. Looking forward to impressions.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:50 am 



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 38
viletim wrote:
philexile wrote:
Drakon wrote:
Only issue with my first run batch is the lack of grayscale mode which is getting added.


Hi Drakon, could you elaborate on this issue? I know in your demo video you showed how it affects FF3 – offhand do you know of other games that would have similar problems?



This bug has been fixed.



Mentioning FF3 reminds me of a (possibly) similar effect in FF1... Is it known whether the light rising up after defeating a fiend in FF1 displays properly? See 94:38 of this recording for an example. Eyeballing it, it might be grayscale mode applied to only parts of scanlines, though this is an uneducated guess.

I've never seen this displayed properly anywhere but on a real NES, though to be fair I haven't seen it tried on an emulator which values accuracy over speed. Not a dealbreaker if it doesn't work properly, I'm just curious.

viletim wrote:
mufunyo wrote:
What's on the little PCB?

A little charge pump voltage converter. It generates 12V from the 5V supply available for SCART switching.


If you were to offer not-quite-SCART cables missing this PCB, would they be priced significantly lower? I don't have any actual SCART TVs, only a scaler and an RGB-to-component transcoder, which both (AFAIK) ignore SCART pin 8. Might not be worth considering if the savings would add up to a dollar or so, but if a more limited cable could be offered for a decent discount, there might be interest.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available soon
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:27 am 



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 469
Location: Sydney, Australia
cr4zymanz0r wrote:
2.) Can the palette switch be used during gameplay, or does the NES have to be reset for the palette changes to take effect?


You can switch between the three palettes at any time. If you want to switch to the original NES/Famicom video signal (if you still use this) you will need to reset the game.

cr4zymanz0r wrote:
1.) Is the extra voltage regulator purely a precaution, or did you actually experience overheating issues with the NES's 7805 when only using it? (If so I'd rather just put a bigger heatsink on it to reduce the amount of wires)


I measured about 12v on the regulator input of my Mattel NES powered with its original Australian AC adapter. This means my NESRGB board, which draws about 120mA will add an additional (12-5)*0.12 = 0.84 watts to the regulator power dissipation. My prototype, when powered from the internal regulator, made the regulator heat sink hot enough to burn my fingers.

By all means, try without the external regulator first. Just be aware that, at least in Australia, the original AC adapter power supply puts out a much higher voltage than necessary. You could have a warm regulator on a third party power supply and have it cook on an original.

This is made worse if you use a flash cartridge or other cartridge with high power consumption (I saw one with LEDs in it a while ago).

Use your most heavy duty cartridge to test and if you find the regulator is too hot you can:
1. Reduce the input voltage. ie. don't use an original Nintendo AC adapter.
2. Increase the size and/or thermal conductivity of the heat sink. Something made of copper works best.
3. Use the external regulator to dump the heat elsewhere.

Choice #3 is the cheapest and most universal solution which is why I include the regulator board.

Pasky wrote:
Wait....is this running 2 7805's in parallel with the NES main PCB? If that's the case, this is a very bad idea as both regulators will be fighting over regulating the voltage and can destroy the other.


That's not how it works. PPU pin 40 is connected to the system regulated power supply. This is always used to power the PPU. The NESRGB board has a solder finger labeled +5v and this must be connected somewhere to power the NESRGB board. There is a jumper between PPU pin 40 and the +5v solder finger. You can short this is you want to power the NESRGB board from the system regulator power.

ApolloBoy wrote:
Isn't the voltage regulator heat sink also connected to the metal shielding of the RF/AV box?


It is in both the NES and original Famicom (the only two models which I own). But the RF box shield is not very thick so has high thermal resistance.

bryan_c wrote:
Mentioning FF3 reminds me of a (possibly) similar effect in FF1... Is it known whether the light rising up after defeating a fiend in FF1 displays properly? See 94:38 of this recording for an example. Eyeballing it, it might be grayscale mode applied to only parts of scanlines, though this is an uneducated guess.

I've never seen this displayed properly anywhere but on a real NES, though to be fair I haven't seen it tried on an emulator which values accuracy over speed. Not a dealbreaker if it doesn't work properly, I'm just curious.


From that video it looks like greyscale mode to me.

bryan_c wrote:
If you were to offer not-quite-SCART cables missing this PCB, would they be priced significantly lower? I don't have any actual SCART TVs, only a scaler and an RGB-to-component transcoder, which both (AFAIK) ignore SCART pin 8. Might not be worth considering if the savings would add up to a dollar or so, but if a more limited cable could be offered for a decent discount, there might be interest.


I not going to do this. I only want to make and stock one cable. Cable making is not something I really enjoy...


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:59 am 


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Posts: 411
Location: Toronto Canada
mickcris wrote:
Yes, it makes it so the rgb board moves over to the left a bit. Drakon posted a pic of what it looks like without the adaptor on page 6.

Yup.
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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:33 pm 



Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Posts: 48
Location: Sweden
Hi!

First I would like to say: Good Job on the product!! :D

I'm planning on using my AV Famicom with the NESRGB and the adapter. Will you provide an instruction for that?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:40 pm 


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Location: Germany
Drakon, so what's your opinion ? Is it worth upgrading from a PPU-RGB mod to the NESRGB board except for the palette options ?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:23 pm 



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 83
Fudoh wrote:
Drakon, so what's your opinion ? Is it worth upgrading from a PPU-RGB mod to the NESRGB board except for the palette options ?



wouldn't the difference be a more correct color palette and digital (not analog) video output?


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:25 pm 


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sure, but what counts are the visible results and both my RGB-modded NES and my AV Famicom look pretty good already. So far Drakon is likely the only one to have experience with both mods, hence my question.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:31 pm 



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 83
I agree. it would be good to know. I'd like to see a side by side comparison to see the differences. Even nicer wold be a side by side difference of the other palette as well. Most likely, I won't install the palette switch and just jumper the mode I like the best (thinking normal mode).
I've heard of the palette difference between the playchoice10 but don't really know WHAT those difference are. Sad that many playchoice 10's had to die to RBG the NES.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:39 pm 


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Quote:
I've heard of the palette difference between the playchoice10 but don't really know WHAT those difference are.

If you grab Nestopia you can switch between RGB and NTSC palettes on the fly. This way it's pretty obvious. I don't mind the RGB colors on a real hardware setup. It's likely more about the few titles that don't show properly when using a RGB PPU.


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:50 pm 



Joined: 15 May 2012
Posts: 188
Fudoh wrote:
sure, but what counts are the visible results and both my RGB-modded NES and my AV Famicom look pretty good already. So far Drakon is likely the only one to have experience with both mods, hence my question.




Check out the first page of this thread. I asked this exact question.

-Jim


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 Post subject: Re: NESRGB board available now
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:47 pm 


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Viletim, can you offer discounted shipping if i order 2 pcbs??


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