NESRGB board available now

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travette
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by travette »

I was able to fix the one pixel shift on a front loader with the clock fix board. I haven’t had symptoms since. I did have to put the 220 pF capacitor back between pin 13 and 20 to fix the palate ram bug though. I would try to see if that helps the pixel shift.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

I finished my NES RGB install on my front loader today. But, I'm having some issues with the color. Yellows and Oranges are completely gone or white. I'm not sure what the hell I'm doing wrong. I've triple checked soldering. I'm using Voultar's quick solder board and ffc cable, so I'm not really sure how or why the colors would be off. I think my jumpers are all correct. All of my controller hooks are working. I can switch through all 6 palettes which all look off thanks to the missing colors, and my in game reset works fine. I'd say the only thing I didn't like was that I really had to bend that ffc cable to get it to tuck under the motherboard with that stupid bottom expansion slot in the way right behind the Voultar board. It felt like I had to bend it to an uncomfortable degree. Anyone know why the colors might be messed up? Tried with HD Retrovision cables and an Insurrection Scart cable.

Also, I realized after the fact that I should have soldered Voultar's board on the underside of the RGB kit. It seems so obvious that I sort of overlooked it and was like oh yeah, it goes on the top right here.. I've since fixed it LOL

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Last edited by TooBeaucoup on Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

TooBeaucoup wrote:I finished my NES RGB install on my front loader today. But, I'm having some issues with the color. Yellows and Oranges are completely gone or white. I'm not sure what the hell I'm doing wrong. I've triple checked soldering. I'm using Voultar's quick solder board and ffc cable, so I'm not really sure how or why the colors would be off. I think my jumpers are all correct. All of my controller hooks are working. I can switch through all 6 palettes which all look off thanks to the missing colors, and my in game reset works fine. I'd say the only thing I didn't like was that I really had to bend that ffc cable to get it to tuck under the motherboard with that stupid bottom expansion slot in the way right behind the Voultar board. It felt like I had to bend it to an uncomfortable degree. Anyone know why the colors might be messed up? Tried with HD Retrovision cables and an Insurrection Scart cable.
I would check your solder joints specifically on EXT0-3 pins of the PPU; pretty sure a bad joint on one of them can cause this issue.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Well, I reflowed most everything and all my joints sure look good and solid, but my color is still messed up. I wonder if I damaged the flex cable giving it such a hard bend when I had Voultar's board mounted on the top of the RGB kit. I mean, I really had to crease it hard to get it to fold under. Maybe I'll have to grab another ffc and try again. I don't understand what else it could be. So frustrating after all that damn work.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

OK, the plot thickens. I went back AGAIN and made sure everything was soldered. I get normal color upon booting any game. But, as soon as I press start and the game moves to another screen, the colors go funny again. If I reset the console, it brings me back to the title screen with messed up colors. Fully powering down and then powering on brings the colors back normal for the title screen. Then they go funny once starting the game. WTF

Colors sure look normal here to me

Image

Then.... :? :?

Image
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Lopenator
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Lopenator »

Have you tried to wiggle the flex to see if the colors act up?
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

I don't think it's your flex cable as if you damaged or shorted that, it should be consistent behavior in whatever its doing. I don't particularly like those things though because theyre pretty thin and fragile - making a wire bundle myself only takes a minute or two. I use cross-linked polyethylene wire and twist my own bundle together with extremely good and reliable results. Polyethylene is also stiff and can be bent and fixed into place however you'd like it. If you think it's the cable, you could try wiring directly in order to rule it out but I think you'd find that it's not based on your symptoms.

However, it's possible for the EXT0-3 problem to be inconsistent like this from what I understand. Different parts of the image are constructed from each pin, so adverse effects on the overall picture can vary with what is in the picture. If reflowing the soldering on those pins caused a material change in behavior, then it's more likely that your problem is there and it's still not correct. Since the NESRGB is constructing its image based off of the data from EXT0-3, if the connections are not correct, it will cause exactly the kind of issues you're having depending on which pin(s) are messed up.

In general, I would check that each of your joints on the PPU in general is well formed - shiny and smooth. Ensure they're conducting correctly with a multimeter, and is not shorting any adjacent pin on either the input or output side and on the socket on the motherboard. Then I'd also make sure that any flux residue is cleaned from the area as some types are conductive and can cause shorts.

If you post some pictures that include the bottom sides of your boards perhaps it can help narrow the problem.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Lopenator wrote:Have you tried to wiggle the flex to see if the colors act up?
I had not tried that, but I just did and wiggling the ffc doesn't shift the colors. However, while doing that, I just discovered that the color goes weird as soon as I press start or select. Although, sometimes the colors shift on their own, they do it immediately when start or select is pressed. I wonder if the in game hooks for palette switching or console reset are messed up. Why it would change colors upon pressing start or select, idk... Here's a video.

https://youtube.com/shorts/0FD54IgPxRI?feature=share
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

TooBeaucoup wrote:
Lopenator wrote:Have you tried to wiggle the flex to see if the colors act up?
I had not tried that, but I just did and wiggling the ffc doesn't shift the colors. However, while doing that, I just discovered that the color goes weird as soon as I press start or select. Although, sometimes the colors shift on their own, they do it immediately when start or select is pressed. I wonder if the in game hooks for palette switching or console reset are messed up. Why it would change colors upon pressing start or select, idk... Here's a video.

https://youtube.com/shorts/0FD54IgPxRI?feature=share
If I were you, I'd try disconnecting those wires temporarily to see if it fixes your problem. If it does, then you can reconnect them again after confirming and more carefully scrutinize their connections.
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Lopenator
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Lopenator »

TooBeaucoup wrote:
Lopenator wrote:Have you tried to wiggle the flex to see if the colors act up?
I had not tried that, but I just did and wiggling the ffc doesn't shift the colors. However, while doing that, I just discovered that the color goes weird as soon as I press start or select. Although, sometimes the colors shift on their own, they do it immediately when start or select is pressed. I wonder if the in game hooks for palette switching or console reset are messed up. Why it would change colors upon pressing start or select, idk... Here's a video.

https://youtube.com/shorts/0FD54IgPxRI?feature=share
maybe try with no palette or IGR connected.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Well, of course, I can't find the toggle switch that I think came with the kit. Is there a way to just set it to the default palette without a switch? Otherwise, I suppose I have to track down a switch.
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

TooBeaucoup wrote:Well, of course, I can't find the toggle switch that I think came with the kit. Is there a way to just set it to the default palette without a switch? Otherwise, I suppose I have to track down a switch.
I think it just goes to palette 1 by default in controller mode, but if you want to run it in switch mode without a switch you can jump a wire between the palette number pin and the ground pin.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

starlightk7 wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:Well, of course, I can't find the toggle switch that I think came with the kit. Is there a way to just set it to the default palette without a switch? Otherwise, I suppose I have to track down a switch.
I think it just goes to palette 1 by default in controller mode, but if you want to run it in switch mode without a switch you can jump a wire between the palette number pin and the ground pin.
Thanks very much. I just gave it a whirl in switch mode and same problem. I push start or select, and the colors go weird. I just don't get it. LOL! All of my soldering looks just how you'd expect it to. Unfortunately, I'm not someone who is good with a multimeter and checking components. Other than checking continuity, that's about all I know how to do. BLEH!!!
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

Give some hi-res pics of both sides of the boards and I'll point out any potential problem spots and tell you how to check them with your multimeter :p
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

starlightk7 wrote:Give some hi-res pics of both sides of the boards and I'll point out any potential problem spots and tell you how to check them with your multimeter :p
I'll do that by tomorrow. I'll take any help I can get.
viletim
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by viletim »

TooBeaucoup,

It looks like your NESRGB board is not receiving the EXT2 signal from the PPU. You can check this visually by shorting test mode jumper 'D'. LEDs 0-3 represent the data received on the EXT0-3 inputs of the NESRGB.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

viletim wrote:TooBeaucoup,

It looks like your NESRGB board is not receiving the EXT2 signal from the PPU. You can check this visually by shorting test mode jumper 'D'. LEDs 0-3 represent the data received on the EXT0-3 inputs of the NESRGB.
So this is what I get at the main menu screen of Mario 3. LEDs 2, 4, 6, and 7 are off

Image

When I start Mario 3 and go to the world map LEDs 2, 6, and 7 are off

Image
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

TooBeaucoup wrote:
viletim wrote:TooBeaucoup,

It looks like your NESRGB board is not receiving the EXT2 signal from the PPU. You can check this visually by shorting test mode jumper 'D'. LEDs 0-3 represent the data received on the EXT0-3 inputs of the NESRGB.
So this is what I get at the main menu screen of Mario 3. LEDs 2, 4, 6, and 7 are off

Image

When I start Mario 3 and go to the world map LEDs 2, 6, and 7 are off

Image
See how LED2 is off in both cases in your photo? Tim is saying that means EXT2 is not connected correctly (makes sense to me as EXT0-3 problem was my original guess). Check your joints related to that pin very carefully and use the debug mode to verify the connection. That light should light up once the connection is good. Ignore the other whackiness until that is fixed as the nesrgb constructs the picture from those pins and its missing the data from one of them, so all kinds of weird things can happen.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

starlightk7 wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:
viletim wrote:TooBeaucoup,

It looks like your NESRGB board is not receiving the EXT2 signal from the PPU. You can check this visually by shorting test mode jumper 'D'. LEDs 0-3 represent the data received on the EXT0-3 inputs of the NESRGB.
So this is what I get at the main menu screen of Mario 3. LEDs 2, 4, 6, and 7 are off

Image

When I start Mario 3 and go to the world map LEDs 2, 6, and 7 are off

Image
See how LED2 is off in both cases in your photo? Tim is saying that means EXT2 is not connected correctly (makes sense to me as EXT0-3 problem was my original guess). Check your joints related to that pin very carefully and use the debug mode to verify the connection. That light should light up once the connection is good. Ignore the other whackiness until that is fixed as the nesrgb constructs the picture from those pins and its missing the data from one of them, so all kinds of weird things can happen.
Yeah, that was my assumption. I'm just bewildered because I've reflowed all the joints twice now, and they all look terrific. I've probably installed a dozen advanced kits as well as other various soldering projects. So, I'll go over them one more time, and then post pictures! LOL
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Lopenator
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Lopenator »

Confirm it with a multimeter also.
viletim
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by viletim »

For reference, here is the signal path of the EXT2 signal. It goes to a level translator IC (5V to 3.3V), then to the FPGA.

Image
coppermine733
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by coppermine733 »

I installed my first NESRGB (v4) a couple days ago into my top loader, along with Voultar's QSB for the multiout connection. I don't have any RGB cables, but I do have a few different good quality s-video cables. It seems to work well at first, but after playing for five to ten minutes a strange horizontal shimmering effect appears, where it's like individual lines in the image get shifted to the side by a bit. The lines are smaller than pixels. The effect gets worse the longer the console runs, and eventually most of the picture is affected. I get this effect on composite and two different s-video cables. I've got the dejitter jumper on the NESRGB jumped. I think it's heat or power related, as the effect persists through power cycles but goes away after letting the console sit and cool down. The heatsink doesn't get hot. My NESRGB kit didn't come with the additional voltage regulator so it's was just running on the stock 7805, but I replaced it with a 78S05 to no effect. I also replaced all the caps with a kit from console5. Lastly, I've tried a couple different OEM power supplies as well as one of those Triad ones that gets recommended.

Here are a few examples of the shimmering:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/139jlHX ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1358AsQ ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13CHaY4 ... sp=sharing

Thanks in advance to anyone taking a look.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

OK. I spent an hour checking continuity between every single solder point and the opposite side of every board. Every pin that gets soldered shows continuity to the other side. I also checked continuity from the EXT2 on the PPU to the level translator IC then checked from the translator IC to the FPGA and all those were good. I'll post pics of my soldering, but I suppose it doesn't really matter since I've verified all connections with continuity. Please ignore the extra solder mask on the board, I simply put my own down before I desoldered the PPU for extra protection from my own clumsy hands. Traces and vias were all fine. I guess my next question is once you install the PPU/RGB board socket and everything is put together, should there be continuity from the very bottom of the NES motherboard on each solder point up to your PPU on each corresponding PPU leg?

I know the soldering isn't perfect, but there is continuity from one side to the other on every pin, on every board, in every spot that the user has to solder.

EDIT: I also, just spent forever, checking each solder point on the bottom of the motherboard for the PPU and followed each trace to their destinations to check for continuity. Everything checks out as connected. :evil: Something wrong with the actual PPU? What else is there to check?

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starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

TooBeaucoup wrote:OK. I spent an hour checking continuity between every single solder point and the opposite side of every board. Every pin that gets soldered shows continuity to the other side. I also checked continuity from the EXT2 on the PPU to the level translator IC then checked from the translator IC to the FPGA and all those were good. I'll post pics of my soldering, but I suppose it doesn't really matter since I've verified all connections with continuity. Please ignore the extra solder mask on the board, I simply put my own down before I desoldered the PPU for extra protection from my own clumsy hands. Traces and vias were all fine. I guess my next question is once you install the PPU/RGB board socket and everything is put together, should there be continuity from the very bottom of the NES motherboard on each solder point up to your PPU on each corresponding PPU leg?

I know the soldering isn't perfect, but there is continuity from one side to the other on every pin, on every board, in every spot that the user has to solder.

EDIT: I also, just spent forever, checking each solder point on the bottom of the motherboard for the PPU and followed each trace to their destinations to check for continuity. Everything checks out as connected. :evil: Something wrong with the actual PPU? What else is there to check?
Do you have access to an oscilloscope? If so you could probe EXT2 to see if anything is being output from your PPU, and that would indicate whether the PPU is the problem or something on the NESRGB board.

By default those pins are unused and are grounded. The NESRGB sets the PPU into a special mode that outputs data on those pins that the system normally does not use. If by chance that function on your PPU was defective, there shouldnt be any noticable symptoms in the normal un-modded mode. However, with those pins being fastened to the ground plane, its would be more likely that there was some damage when removing the chip if thats the case (if you had to pull at or coax it a bit hard to pop it out for example - those are the pins that are hard to get out).

Edit: Just saw that Tim posted the trace route as well - didn't see that when responding. You should also check those two highlighted paths with your multimedia to ensure that the trace's path is not damaged somewhere.
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

coppermine733 wrote:I installed my first NESRGB (v4) a couple days ago into my top loader, along with Voultar's QSB for the multiout connection. I don't have any RGB cables, but I do have a few different good quality s-video cables. It seems to work well at first, but after playing for five to ten minutes a strange horizontal shimmering effect appears, where it's like individual lines in the image get shifted to the side by a bit. The lines are smaller than pixels. The effect gets worse the longer the console runs, and eventually most of the picture is affected. I get this effect on composite and two different s-video cables. I've got the dejitter jumper on the NESRGB jumped. I think it's heat or power related, as the effect persists through power cycles but goes away after letting the console sit and cool down. The heatsink doesn't get hot. My NESRGB kit didn't come with the additional voltage regulator so it's was just running on the stock 7805, but I replaced it with a 78S05 to no effect. I also replaced all the caps with a kit from console5. Lastly, I've tried a couple different OEM power supplies as well as one of those Triad ones that gets recommended.

Here are a few examples of the shimmering:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/139jlHX ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1358AsQ ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13CHaY4 ... sp=sharing

Thanks in advance to anyone taking a look.
If you post some hi-resolution uncropped photos of both sides of your install (motherboard) and nesrgb board I'll attempt to help you.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

starlightk7 wrote:
TooBeaucoup wrote:OK. I spent an hour checking continuity between every single solder point and the opposite side of every board. Every pin that gets soldered shows continuity to the other side. I also checked continuity from the EXT2 on the PPU to the level translator IC then checked from the translator IC to the FPGA and all those were good. I'll post pics of my soldering, but I suppose it doesn't really matter since I've verified all connections with continuity. Please ignore the extra solder mask on the board, I simply put my own down before I desoldered the PPU for extra protection from my own clumsy hands. Traces and vias were all fine. I guess my next question is once you install the PPU/RGB board socket and everything is put together, should there be continuity from the very bottom of the NES motherboard on each solder point up to your PPU on each corresponding PPU leg?

I know the soldering isn't perfect, but there is continuity from one side to the other on every pin, on every board, in every spot that the user has to solder.

EDIT: I also, just spent forever, checking each solder point on the bottom of the motherboard for the PPU and followed each trace to their destinations to check for continuity. Everything checks out as connected. :evil: Something wrong with the actual PPU? What else is there to check?
Do you have access to an oscilloscope? If so you could probe EXT2 to see if anything is being output from your PPU, and that would indicate whether the PPU is the problem or something on the NESRGB board.

By default those pins are unused and are grounded. The NESRGB sets the PPU into a special mode that outputs data on those pins that the system normally does not use. If by chance that function on your PPU was defective, there shouldnt be any noticable symptoms in the normal un-modded mode. However, with those pins being fastened to the ground plane, its would be more likely that there was some damage when removing the chip if thats the case (if you had to pull at or coax it a bit hard to pop it out for example - those are the pins that are hard to get out).

Edit: Just saw that Tim posted the trace route as well - didn't see that when responding. You should also check those two highlighted paths with your multimedia to ensure that the trace's path is not damaged somewhere.
Yeah, I mentioned that I checked the trace routing to the FPGA after Tim mentioned it, and it's all good. Unfortunately, I don't have an oscilloscope. I used a desoldering gun to remove the PPU, and it came out quite easily with little fuss. I do have a spare PPU that I took out of another NES just for fun, but it seems like an awful lot of work to desolder this first PPU from the RGB board, risk damaging something, and not even know if the other PPU would fix things. I guess, I'm stuck.
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

TooBeaucoup wrote: Yeah, I mentioned that I checked the trace routing to the FPGA after Tim mentioned it, and it's all good. Unfortunately, I don't have an oscilloscope. I used a desoldering gun to remove the PPU, and it came out quite easily with little fuss. I do have a spare PPU that I took out of another NES just for fun, but it seems like an awful lot of work to desolder this first PPU from the RGB board, risk damaging something, and not even know if the other PPU would fix things. I guess, I'm stuck.


If you have a desoldering gun it should be pretty quick to swap the chip as the solder will all be fresh and will remove much easier. If you don't want to, then if you try calling your local maker space if there's one in your area they may have an oscilloscope you can use as part of their facilities. Some do, some don't - can't hurt to ask.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by TooBeaucoup »

OMFG!!!! I just installed my other PPU and the problem remains!!!!!!!!!! LOL! OK, so every solder joint on all boards shows continuity. All traces from the bottom of PPU on motherboard to all respective traces on motherboard show continuity. Positive continuity from the EXT2 on the PPU to the level translator IC then from the translator IC to the FPGA. Anything else on the motherboard that would cause this? Defective RGB board? Seriously, what the actual fck! Tim? Tim? TIMMMMM!!!! :lol:
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Lopenator
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by Lopenator »

TooBeaucoup wrote:OMFG!!!! I just installed my other PPU and the problem remains!!!!!!!!!! LOL! OK, so every solder joint on all boards shows continuity. All traces from the bottom of PPU on motherboard to all respective traces on motherboard show continuity. Positive continuity from the EXT2 on the PPU to the level translator IC then from the translator IC to the FPGA. Anything else on the motherboard that would cause this? Defective RGB board? Seriously, what the actual fck! Tim? Tim? TIMMMMM!!!! :lol:
You are one unlucky dude. You should be a beta tester.
starlightk7
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Re: NESRGB board available now

Post by starlightk7 »

TooBeaucoup wrote:OMFG!!!! I just installed my other PPU and the problem remains!!!!!!!!!! LOL! OK, so every solder joint on all boards shows continuity. All traces from the bottom of PPU on motherboard to all respective traces on motherboard show continuity. Positive continuity from the EXT2 on the PPU to the level translator IC then from the translator IC to the FPGA. Anything else on the motherboard that would cause this? Defective RGB board? Seriously, what the actual fck! Tim? Tim? TIMMMMM!!!! :lol:
Oof. It's sounding like a problem with your NESRGB as the odds of two PPUs having this exact same issue are probably near 0.

When you were verifying the paths in Tim's diagram, did you check this one too? I'm assuming probably not since the chip was covering it, but perhaps this one is broken:

Image

If that works too, I'm out of ideas and we'll have to wait for Tim to respond again.
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