Micomsoft XCAPTURE-1 USB 3.0 Capture Unit

[Fudoh]

I can think of more games that won't work in RGB, but in VGA instead of the other way around.

some games seem to look better to me over SCART than they do in VGA.

that my apply to a TV screen, but captured the VGA version should always come out better.

[TheDrifter363]

I have a question. It seems the xcapture-1 and the avermedia extremecap u3 both support 1080p60 so would the extremecap be better? I say this as a person who owns a xrgb mini so I don't need anything to do with 240p as everything's getting upscaled to 1080p anyway. Having both the xrgb mini and xcapture-1 seem redundant. What does everyone else think? Any benefit to having both of these devices? I ask because the xcapture-1 costs just as much as the xrgb mini, quite pricey.

[eightbitminiboss]

I have a question. It seems the xcapture-1 and the avermedia extremecap u3 both support 1080p60 so would the extremecap be better? I say this as a person who owns a xrgb mini so I don't need anything to do with 240p as everything's getting upscaled to 1080p anyway. Having both the xrgb mini and xcapture-1 seem redundant. What does everyone else think? Any benefit to having both of these devices? I ask because the xcapture-1 costs just as much as the xrgb mini, quite pricey.

If all you're using it for is the Mini, then the ExtremeCap should be enough. What the XCAPTURE-1 has over the ExtremeCap beyond VGA and 240p support is passthrough connections as the ExtremeCap only has inputs. You would have to supplement your AV chain with splitters to have it on your TV and capture at the same time.

[Sixfortyfive]

The XCAPTURE has the following advantages over the Extremecap:
- VGA, S-video, and composite inputs
- passthrough for all inputs
- support for sub-480p, 15khz/24khz video

If you don't need any of that, then it doesn't have any significant advantage. As long as you don't have any games that cause problems with the XRGB-mini (e.g. games that constantly switch resolutions and cause the picture to drop out), then you're probably fine with just chaining the XRGB into another capture card.

[TheDrifter363]

The XCAPTURE has the following advantages over the Extremecap:
- VGA, S-video, and composite inputs
- passthrough for all inputs
- support for sub-480p, 15khz/24khz video

If you don't need any of that, then it doesn't have any significant advantage. As long as you don't have any games that cause problems with the XRGB-mini (e.g. games that constantly switch resolutions and cause the picture to drop out), then you're probably fine with just chaining the XRGB into another capture card.

Thank you ver much for that information. Well the only games that constantly switch resolutions are resident evil 2 for the n64 and majora's mask's bomber notebook switches to 480i but that's about it. Resident evil 2 can be played without the expansion pack and I can just not click on the bomber notebook. By the way doesn't the xcapture-1 stop recording if it detects a resolution change, so a game like resident evil 2 on the n64 with the expansion pack would be unplayable anyway?

[Sixfortyfive]

Thank you ver much for that information. Well the only games that constantly switch resolutions are resident evil 2 for the n64 and majora's mask's bomber notebook switches to 480i but that's about it. Resident evil 2 can be played without the expansion pack and I can just not click on the bomber notebook. By the way doesn't the xcapture-1 stop recording if it detects a resolution change, so a game like resident evil 2 on the n64 with the expansion pack would be unplayable anyway?

The XCAP can handle resolution changes fine as long as the relevant option toggle is checked. That's actually kind of a rarity in my experience; not a lot of capture cards seem to handle that issue well. The worst that the XCAP will give you is some screen tearing.

[Smashbro29]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/310671254252?ss ... 1439.l2649

So I use that on my motherboard (Asus P8Z68-V Pro/Gen3) for the X-Capture 1.

I notice in the preview windows sometimes it's a bit sluggish, it has some (very minor) stutters. This never happened with my old capture card that was PCI-E so I was wondering, how could I optimize this?

[eightbitminiboss]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/310671254252?ss ... 1439.l2649

So I use that on my motherboard (Asus P8Z68-V Pro/Gen3) for the X-Capture 1.

I notice in the preview windows sometimes it's a bit sluggish, it has some (very minor) stutters. This never happened with my old capture card that was PCI-E so I was wondering, how could I optimize this?

Well, I'd have to ask the obvious questions; Did you update the firmware of the chip and are you using the latest drivers? Could you describe the stuttering, does it look like an actual stutter or is it tearing?

[Smashbro29]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/310671254252?ss ... 1439.l2649

So I use that on my motherboard (Asus P8Z68-V Pro/Gen3) for the X-Capture 1.

I notice in the preview windows sometimes it's a bit sluggish, it has some (very minor) stutters. This never happened with my old capture card that was PCI-E so I was wondering, how could I optimize this?

Well, I'd have to ask the obvious questions; Did you update the firmware of the chip and are you using the latest drivers? Could you describe the stuttering, does it look like an actual stutter or is it tearing?

I suppose for lack of a better explanation, it just seems slower.

Of course, everything is current as can be.

[Smashbro29]

You ever try to play a game on PC and it can mostly handle it but sometimes dips to like 55fps and it's super noticeable? It's like that.

[robneal81]

Is the XCAPTURE-1 the only USB capture card that can accept a 240p RGB signal?

[Fudoh]

yes, but in general I would recommend going for a HD capture unit plus an upscaler instead. Capturing 720p using an Avermedia/Framemeister combo looks better than capturing native 240p on a XCapture.

[robneal81]

yes, but in general I would recommend going for a HD capture unit plus an upscaler instead. Capturing 720p using an Avermedia/Framemeister combo looks better than capturing native 240p on a XCapture.

I appreciate the advice. Are there any upscalers that are cheaper than the Framemeister that are good enough for capture?

[Fudoh]

Well. The older XRGB units only output in VGA, which makes the choice of capture card more complicated.

With a combo like the Avermedia LGP Lite ($130 ?) and a DVDO scaler like an iScan HD ($100-130), you're looking at results like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUeZxXm8_II

Not 100% like a Framemeister, but still extremely solid and the iScan allows stuff like overscan compensation, capturing from composite, s-video, component, RGBs and VGA.

[robneal81]

Well. The older XRGB units only output in VGA, which makes the choice of capture card more complicated.

With a combo like the Avermedia LGP Lite ($130 ?) and a DVDO scaler like an iScan HD ($100-130), you're looking at results like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUeZxXm8_II

Not 100% like a Framemeister, but still extremely solid and the iScan allows stuff like overscan compensation, capturing from composite, s-video, component, RGBs and VGA.

Good suggestion. Thanks, I'll look into it.

[alamone]

yes, but in general I would recommend going for a HD capture unit plus an upscaler instead. Capturing 720p using an Avermedia/Framemeister combo looks better than capturing native 240p on a XCapture.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this statement.
When would a processed, scaled signal ever look better than capturing at the original resolution?

[Fudoh]

The XCapture can't capture in "original resolution". You get a perfect line alignment, but the sampling on the horizontal is completely off when you capture "whatever you get" in 720 pixels width. Uploading videos to YT in 240p is a no-go, so you'd anyway be upscaling in software while processing and in my experience (I have a XCapture) this doesn't look as good as directly capturing in 720p.

For archiving it's not much different. When you use a 4:2:0 codec (like x264) you're losing so much information that it's again better to capture upscaled in the first place.

It's actually quite obvious.

[alamone]

The XCapture can't capture in "original resolution". You get a perfect line alignment, but the sampling on the horizontal is completely off when you capture "whatever you get" in 720 pixels width. Uploading videos to YT in 240p is a no-go, so you'd anyway be upscaling in software while processing and in my experience (I have a XCapture) this doesn't look as good as directly capturing in 720p.

For archiving it's not much different. When you use a 4:2:0 codec (like x264) you're losing so much information that it's again better to capture upscaled in the first place.

It's actually quite obvious.

No, I don't think it's "quite obvious".

What if the framerate is not exactly 59.94? You are going to get stuttering from framerate conversion.
These video processors are probably going to be using a buffer and changing the output framerate,
whereas if you capture the signal directly, you get the exact same vertical refresh that you started with.

Further, when is "sampling of 720 pixels width" ever a problem? I'd like to see some evidence of sampling distortion.

Also, you are making a bunch of assumptions. Who said anything about uploading to youtube or encoding to x264?
What if I'm archiving using a lossless codec? Obviously, if you care enough to buy a XCAPTURE-1, you care enough
about capturing the original signal to spend the extra bucks. Otherwise, as you said,
one would be satisfied with any scaler and any generic HDMI capture solution.

[Fudoh]

No, I don't think it's "quite obvious".

the difference in quality is obvious. Even if I aimed at archiving lossless in original res, I would still capture in HD and downscale afterwards.

What if the framerate is not exactly 59.94? You are going to get stuttering from framerate conversion.

on most processors you can choose if you want locked or unlocked video.

Further, when is "sampling of 720 pixels width" ever a problem? I'd like to see some evidence of sampling distortion.

care to post a snapshot or upload a short sample of any of your captures ? Then I'll show you.

Who said anything about uploading to youtube or encoding to x264?

My guess is that 95%+ of all users do the one or the other.

What if I'm archiving using a lossless codec?

then you're pretty cool, but pretty alone with that as well.

Obviously, if you care enough to buy a XCAPTURE-1, you care enough
about capturing the original signal to spend the extra bucks. Otherwise, as you said,
one would be satisfied with any scaler and any generic HDMI capture solution.

wasn't this robneal81's question ? He was looking for alternatives to a XCAP, wasn't he ?

[alamone]

Re: capturing upscaled and downscaling:
This just sounds strange to me. Upscale, Downscale, you're processing it twice.
I'm having a hard time believing this provides a better representation of the original signal
than just capturing it once.

Re: capturing locked vs unlocked:
The IA-101 does not have this option. It does framerate conversion.
Similarly the Gefen DVI scaler also uses a buffer and does a framerate conversion.
In fact, I believe most scalers use a buffer and framerate conversion, and only very
expensive scalers allow you to follow the same frequency as the input signal.
I just don't think this feature is as widespread as you purport it to be.

Re: 240P capture samples:
Just look at my SC-500N1 thread. I have posted plenty of screen captures.

Re: intended application:
Sorry, but I'm not making any assumptions as to the intended use of the product.
Further, isn't it better if the system is as flexible as possible if you intend to change your workflow
in the future? In the past, everyone used 128K mp3s. When was the last time you encoded a mp3 at 128K?

Re: solicited advice:
He was looking for other cards that might support 240P.
From that, I'm guessing he wants to capture the original signal in the highest quality possible.

[Fudoh]

Can you still enlighten me which codec you're using ? There are so few codecs out there which record in 4:4:4 RGB or YCbCr. And which playback software do you use to prevent bilinear filtering during playback ?

[Fudoh]

Just look at my SC-500N1 thread. I have posted plenty of screen captures.

Just to clarify - from a recent snapshot taken from the 500N1 thread:



See all those halos and false contoures around the vertical edges ? That's the problem you get with wrong sampling.

[alamone]

I use Lagarith for the codec. Also, I think playback software is a little outside of the scope here, we're talking about capture aren't we?

[Fudoh]

Re: capturing upscaled and downscaling:
This just sounds strange to me. Upscale, Downscale, you're processing it twice.
I'm having a hard time believing this provides a better representation of the original signal than just capturing it once.

unfortunately it does.

The IA-101 does not have this option. It does framerate conversion.

I know. But I recommend a DVDO and there you can choose.

Further, isn't it better if the system is as flexible as possible if you intend to change your workflow in the future?

absolutely. That's why I have both, a XCAP and a Framemeister

[Fudoh]

Also, I think playback software is a little outside of the scope here?

It is, yes. But still, you'll have a much harder time achieving good looking playback from 240p files than from 720p files.

But hey. All I do is showing the options. If you're happy with your XCAP captures, then I'm happy for you.

[alamone]

I think NES/SNES is a bit of an edge case because of the 256 pixel wide resolution.
I'm primarily interested in arcade boards, and they mostly run at 320 pixels wide.
I suppose this just depends on what you're interested in capturing.

[blizzz]

Just to clarify - from a recent snapshot taken from the 500N1 thread:



See all those halos and false contoures around the vertical edges ? That's the problem you get with wrong sampling.

Could you post a screenshot (of the same scene) with the Framemeister?
I'm curious how it scales a 256x224 picture into a 960x720 frame. 256 doesn't fit into 960 with an integer scale factor unless you mess up the aspect ratio.
Edit: To clarify that mess of a sentence; the PAR isn't 1:1 which should always cause problems with digital captures unless you add the aspect ratio as a meta information to the video container.

[Fudoh]

can't find anything on hand. There have very nice sample captures been posted in the Framemeister thread some time ago. The AR doesn't really matter. It's the job of the scaling engine to keep visible sampling errors like this from happening. And the Mini does this really well. Not as perfect as a emulation snapshot, but still considerably better than what the XCAP or the 500N1 do on their own.

[Sixfortyfive]

With a combo like the Avermedia LGP Lite ($130 ?) and a DVDO scaler like an iScan HD ($100-130), you're looking at results like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUeZxXm8_II

I think recommending something USB2 like an LGP might be a further step back once you factor in the hardware encoding.

Truthfully, I think the biggest shortcoming of the XCAPTURE with regard to picture quality is the YUY2 color sampling. It crushes bright greens and dark reds on a lot of sources to a noticeable degree. The Intensity Shuttle fared better on that in my experience and I'd still like to know what kind of sampling the Extremecap utilizes.

Uploading videos to YT in 240p is a no-go, so you'd anyway be upscaling in software while processing and in my experience (I have a XCapture) this doesn't look as good as directly capturing in 720p.

For archiving it's not much different. When you use a 4:2:0 codec (like x264) you're losing so much information that it's again better to capture upscaled in the first place.

Nearest neighbor scaling in something like Virtualdub is fine for that.

For archiving specifically, I think you could use something lossless like Lagarith. If you have a monster HDD, anyway.

[Pasky]

Just look at my SC-500N1 thread. I have posted plenty of screen captures.

Just to clarify - from a recent snapshot taken from the 500N1 thread:

See all those halos and false contoures around the vertical edges ? That's the problem you get with wrong sampling.

Would you mind explaining in detail what haloing and false contoures are? I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know because I don't really know what you're looking at. I'd like to be able to identify them.