X68000 information sponging

[SuperDeadite]

What if you've already got a couple MT-32 units lying around? Can you add a CM-32L and CM-32P to get more or less up to CM-64 territory? And is one of these a prerequisite for the other (i.e., buying a CM-32P alone to supplement a MT-32)? I imagine it's noisier to have three units together, but since I still have a couple MT-32s lying around...Additionally, then, what are you using (or would suggest using) to get all these working together with the X68000?

Well the CM-32L contains sounds not found in the MT-32, so if a game uses those sounds, they won't be heard in an MT-32+CM-32P combination. As far as linking a CM-32L and CM-32P, I really don't know. The CM-64 is a fairly simple device in function. The CM-32P half is locked to MIDI channels 11-16, which the CM-32L doesn't use. (Making the CM-64 backwards compatible without a selector switch).

So if the standalone CM-32P has 16 channels it might work. It comes down to the CM-64's SysEx really, which I know nothing about. But price wise, CM-64's typically go for about 10,000yen on yahoo japan. The CM-32P however is the rarest CM module, and I've never heard of any games that use it exclusively, it will be cheaper to buy a CM-64 over a 32L and 32P unless you get really lucky.

My setup is how you see in the picture. I hate changing cables, and I also don't like chaining via MIDI THRU. I have the 2nd version of the Sharp Interface board (the A1). If you set the dips correctly, all games will output over both Port 1 and 2 at the same time. I have one going to each module's input.

The internal and CM-64's outputs go into my Phonic AM55 mixer, this output then goes into the Aux Input on my Yamaha UW500. And the MU2000's digital output goes into the UW500's digital input. The UW500's output goes to my speakers. What's nice about the UW500 is when in digital input mode, the analog Aux Input still works, and it's volume is not changed, so I can freely mix all three music sources independently. The UW500 uses a a 20 bit DAC and ADC which isn't pro level, but sounds great to my ears. Also makes a very nice USB Audio input/output device and is a full on MIDI interface as well (has both the TO HOST serial port and standard MIDI ports)

[Ed Oscuro]

So if the standalone CM-32P has 16 channels it might work. It comes down to the CM-64's SysEx really, which I know nothing about. But price wise, CM-64's typically go for about 10,000yen on yahoo japan. The CM-32P however is the rarest CM module, and I've never heard of any games that use it exclusively, it will be cheaper to buy a CM-64 over a 32L and 32P unless you get really lucky.

Indeed: Just made the plunge. Given my familiarity with Roland equipment price levels, it seemed like a good bet. Now to find the CM-64 at a reasonable price. There's a nice example up right now but at $130 plus nearly $50 shipping, ugh.

I am a bit concerned about chaining too, but I'll give it a shot.

What I really need to ask, though, is if a CM-32L can be used in conjunction with an MT-32 at all - but it appears it's meant as a complete replacement (for the computer gamer) and supplants it in the chain.

I'll keep an MT-32 around anyway, because for software that only uses the MT-32 it'll probably be the cleanest-sounding option.

Also an odd story: X68000 computer case set up for modern PC hardware.

[SuperDeadite]

So if the standalone CM-32P has 16 channels it might work. It comes down to the CM-64's SysEx really, which I know nothing about. But price wise, CM-64's typically go for about 10,000yen on yahoo japan. The CM-32P however is the rarest CM module, and I've never heard of any games that use it exclusively, it will be cheaper to buy a CM-64 over a 32L and 32P unless you get really lucky.

Indeed: Just made the plunge. Given my familiarity with Roland equipment price levels, it seemed like a good bet. Now to find the CM-64 at a reasonable price. There's a nice example up right now but at $130 plus nearly $50 shipping, ugh.

I am a bit concerned about chaining too, but I'll give it a shot.

What I really need to ask, though, is if a CM-32L can be used in conjunction with an MT-32 at all - but it appears it's meant as a complete replacement (for the computer gamer) and supplants it in the chain.

I'll keep an MT-32 around anyway, because for software that only uses the MT-32 it'll probably be the cleanest-sounding option.

Also an odd story: X68000 computer case set up for modern PC hardware.

Very nice price on that. Nice get. I read through the manual scan linked in the sale. Seems the 32P only uses MIDI channels 11-16. So as long as you put the 32P in the chain above the 32L, it appears it should work. But yes you will need the 32L to meet the full 64 spec. From my understanding there's a few old Sierra Dos games that only work properly on the original MT-32, the 32L is based on the 2nd version of the MT-32. So probably worth having both for maximum compatibility anyway.

[kamiboy]

Congrats on winning the Compact!

Now, get the power supply and motherboard capacitors replaced ASAP!

Special emphasis on the motherboard caps.

That is certainly the plan.

By the way, about the input ports on the back of these midi hardware. I often see a regular Din-5 labelled midi, then a mini-din labelled computer with a dip switch to control the inputs.

What is the deal with the mini-din? Is it for hooking the mini-din output from the likes of X68000 directly to the midi hardware without any mini-din to regular din adapters?

[Fudoh]

kudos to SuperDeadite. Fantastic overview of the vintage Roland modules!

[SuperDeadite]

Congrats on winning the Compact!

Now, get the power supply and motherboard capacitors replaced ASAP!

Special emphasis on the motherboard caps.

That is certainly the plan.

By the way, about the input ports on the back of these midi hardware. I often see a regular Din-5 labelled midi, then a mini-din labelled computer with a dip switch to control the inputs.

What is the deal with the mini-din? Is it for hooking the mini-din output from the likes of X68000 directly to the midi hardware without any mini-din to regular din adapters?

Due to the physical size of the I/O cards, normal DIN5 midi ports are too big. So most cards use mini-din5s. So you need a mini-din5 to din5 adapter cable to go to connect to the module. One of the System Sacom I/O cards does use full size din5s, the plugs actually stick out the back a ways. No adapter cables needed but I don't recommend this card as some games don't support it. And I have a friend who had one but got rid of it as he said it created a lot of extra noise.

[kamiboy]

Yeah, I knew about the IO cards coming with mini-din outs which necessitate a mini-din to regular din adapter.

Thing is, those adapters are expensive and rare, so I got curious about the mini-din input on the back of the likes of SC-55, 88 etc.

Alas after studying their manuals it seems that mini-din input is not a straight midi port, it is in fact a serial port designed to allow communication with computers via their serial out.

Apparently if your midi software supports it, and you have the right serial port to mini-din cable you can hook your midi device directly to your computer. I am not sure how old DOS games interfaced with the various midi devices such as the MT-32, so maybe they used the serial port like this. In fact that would have made a lot of sense as it takes superfluous hardware like midi interface boards out of the equation.

In any case, I have a bid down on a relatively cheap SC-55 which I hope to win. After spending what seems like a beggars fortune on all the many cables and other surprise details necessary to elevate the compact up a proper gaming platform, in addition to the cost of the compact itself, I am ready to close up this X68000 sized orifice in my wallet and bring about the conclusion of this expedition.

I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for your comments and guidance. Barring anything going wrong during shipping, which would be a first, I think I will have a chance to sit down and enjoy this Rolls Royce of gaming hardware in about two months, give or take a few weeks.

[SuperDeadite]

Oh, you meant the TO HOST Serial port. There is a System Sacom Serial interface which connects to that, but it came very late and very few games support it, so no point in using that on an X68k.

That port is how I connect my modules to my UW500 interface though. Which then hooks to my computer via USB so I only need the Yamaha USB drivers. The Yamaha CBX driver for using a straight up serial cable is still online on their Japanese website.

But in this day, a USB MIDI cable is much simpler unless you have a real interface like I use.

[kamiboy]

I gave your parade videos a watch now since I am not behind a capped internet connection at work.

You are right in that LA games tend to sound much better in midi. Unfortunately I find that to my ears the FM soundtrack trumps both hands down. Akumajou Dracula especially sounds fantastic in FM, but neither the LA or GS versions strikes my fancy. I guess I like that distinct console like quality of the x68000 FM music.

Wish I had had a chance to listen to those videos before wasting money on a midi interface card and placing a bid on a SC-55mkII. You win again download cap!

Oh, well, I suppose I can keep the midi hardware around as a curiosity, an expensive curiosity.

[SuperDeadite]

Well I don't know your work computer's hardware, but as stated you need a good amp and speakers for the MIDI to truly shine. Dracula's FM and LA music are completely different arrangements, and I love them both.

[Opethian]

I'll take that SC55 if you dont want it kami

[kamiboy]

Looks like the seller of that particular SC55mkII decided to cancel my proxy bid without any reason. If he hadn't I would have been the winner. And the winning price was unexpectedly low.

The SC55's seem to be dirt cheap after all.

Since I've already spent money on the interface board and midi adapter I can afford to throw a few yen at a SC55 and complete the ensemble.

Also, I kind of dig the midi rendition of Dai Makaimura's X68000 soundtrack, that game sounds really good for whatever reason, so maybe there are others like it.

--

My PC sound setup sucks, since I only browse these forums and listen to those videos at work there is nothing I can do about it.

At home, though, I have a midrange Dennon AVR from 2008 with a pair of Polk tower speakers. It is a pretty good sound setup so I'll give the SC55 a fair shake if I end up finding another one in the same range.

That is, of course, if these yahoo seller will let me have one. This is my second x68000 relate bid that I've had nixed without any reason given.

[SuperDeadite]

A lot of Yahoo sellers are fed up with proxies. So yeah cancels will happen. Daimakaimura is one of the few games that's true GM, not GS, so you have a lot more options then SC-55. In fact, I really don't recommend the 55 for that game. Sounds way better on every Yamaha I've tried. If you want awesome Daimakaimura, just about any Yamaha sounds better then SC-55. The TG100 or TG300 sounds wonderful, and is about as cheap as it gets. Any MU class module will be fantastic. (The TG300 and all MU modules are all SC-55 GS compatible, though unofficially by the way.)

[kamiboy]

I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

What is so bad about proxy bidders though? I imagine they must be easier and more professional to deal with as it all goes through a third party and there is no possibility of returning items or any other trouble.

Maybe they are fed up with gaijin leeching all of the wonderful Japanese hardware and software out of domestic circulation. I can certainly understand their sentiments in that regard.

[Shou]

I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

What is so bad about proxy bidders though? I imagine they must be easier and more professional to deal with as it all goes through a third party and there is no possibility of returning items or any other trouble.

Maybe they are fed up with gaijin leeching all of the wonderful Japanese hardware and software out of domestic circulation. I can certainly understand their sentiments in that regard.

Some of these proxy services are run by foreigners who have a poor grasp of communication and expected etiquette for auctions. I myself have received some proxy bids and have had them say stuff like my customer bid on this by my mistake, please cancel.

Even with Japanese people helping them, they're generally not knowledgable about what they're bidding on. It also goes the other way with some foreigners providing listing services for their home country such as Korea where Japanese don't deal with them due to their shitty service/manners.

[kamiboy]

I've noticed most Yahoo auction listings being overtly protectionist. Marking perfectly functioning hardware as junk just so there is no possibility of return or complaints and accompanying every listing with a long explanation of why you should seriously consider not bidding on it.

The auction culture is completely different than on ebay. It is always amusing to see how people's approach to the same concept differs from country to country.

[kamiboy]

Well I ended up winning a Yamaha MU80 auction for 4100Yen. I overpaid a bit since the listing was ending and from the pictures I thought it came with the box, but I later discovered that I was mistaken.

Oh, well. I hope the GS compatibility of the Yamaha is up to par as GM support is only relevant for Dai Makaimura so far as I know.

[SuperDeadite]

I haven't used an MU80 myself, but should be a nice starter module. The "TG300B Mode" = GS Mode. The "C/M Mode" = "CM-64 mode", but that will sound awful most of the time. For GM games (Daimakaimura, Street Fighter II', Super Street Fighter II, will sound best in XG mode.

[kamiboy]

Hold on a tick. You mean to say it actually has CM64 support? As in this unit can do GM, GS and LA?

Does it fully support LA like a CM64 or MT32? If so then that is fantastic. I won't need to buy any additional hardware in order to experience all X68000 midi games to their fullest. Or am I missing something?

I am surprised you did not mention this in your writeup. Must be because the GS and LA support is lacking, right?

Edit:

Oh yeah and apropos the MU80. The audio out port on its back look very strange. They are clearly not BNC connectors as they seem to be just two large round holes, one for L and one for R. Would you happen to know what sort of connector is supposed to go into them? Maybe the other MU units use the same connector.

[SuperDeadite]

Not really. The C/M mode is the same kind of thing you'll find on the SC-55. Just changes the instrument maps to match the CM-64 maps. Hardware is different, sounds nothing like a real 64, LA SysEx is not understood. But simple games like Phalanx, Thunder Blade, will "work" so to speak...

The outputs are standard 1 channel line out jacks. "Jumbo headphone" plugs if you know what I mean, but unlike headphones, these are mono, 1 cable for left, one for right. Most audio mixers use these as standards, but if you want RCA, adapters can be found just about anywhere.

http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-Cable-GPR101 ... udio+cable

[kamiboy]

I see, too bad about the LA business. I guess there is no substitute for the real thing. Maybe if x68000 midi tracks grow on me over the years I'll invest in a MT32.

For now I'll snatch those adapters, thanks.

[papa_november]

I've noticed most Yahoo auction listings being overtly protectionist. Marking perfectly functioning hardware as junk just so there is no possibility of return or complaints and accompanying every listing with a long explanation of why you should seriously consider not bidding on it.

The auction culture is completely different than on ebay. It is always amusing to see how people's approach to the same concept differs from country to country.

and yet the prices still wind up being bonkers

[kamiboy]

If you wanna play, then you gotta pay.

[papa_november]

It's a legitimate complaint. This is a hideously expensive hobby and a lot of people (including talented people who would make the best use of the more expensive toys) who want to participate struggle to do so due to lack of income. And it's not getting any cheaper.

[kamiboy]

Supply and demand me old boy. They stopped making these vintage hardware and software a long time ago and lots of people want to horde, I mean collect what little was made.

[SuperDeadite]

w00t! Yamaha SY22 get!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Add1kL696pw

[kamiboy]

Deuce me boy, you bought a full sized synth keyboard just for that one game?

It sounds great at least.

[SuperDeadite]

Well I've been meaning to pickup a keyboard anyway. I have so many modules, but nothing to control them with, which felt like a waste. I want to start making music and doing real editing. Might as well get a controller that also has game support The full synth also goes for a lot less then the it's sister the TG33 (no keyboard module version, and still quite big.)

[kamiboy]

Ah, so you will get some more use out of that fine piece of kit. I was thinking that it would have been wasted on one title alone, and that particular game of all things.

It honestly looked rather drab, even when factoring away my usual bias against driving games.

In regards to the x68000, I have recently come into knowledge of a rather unfortunate detail about its library of games.

It seems, although most x68000 games are rendered in the 15khz 240p range natively some actually only support being displayed in 480p pixel doubled 31khz mode.

In particular Akumajou Dracula seems to only support 31khz, which is very unfortunate news indeed. In my mind that actually puts the PSX port of the game ahead of the original because I am pretty certain the PSX game displays in 15khz like almost every other game on that system.

It seems there is a good number of games with 15khz support, some as a hidden option, but some, nevertheless, are 31khz only.

I suppose some sort of VGA to CGA converter like those Emotia devices could erase this flaw, but the very fact that the system was perfectly capable of 15khz makes hunting down such hardware a particularly hard pill to swallow.

I wonder if there are no 15khz hacked version of Akumajou available? I know crazy Japanese coders have hacked games such as Gradius to make them Arcade perfect, but in this case I doubt anyone has bothered.

[SuperDeadite]

High-resolution is a flaw? lol what? The majority of games on the system are 31khz. Some are 15khz, and some are even 24khz. What modes are used depends on the game. A few oddities like Galseed II use 31khz for menus, but 15khz for gameplay. Original Sharp monitors are tri-syncs so it was a natural choice.

As for Dracula. X68K version is a lot nicer then the PS1 port. It looks nicer and is a lot smoother for sure. And remember 31khz doesn't mean "VGA" in regards to this computer. Most games output in 512x512 or 768x512.

This games aren't "pixel doubled." They are 31khz native for the most part. I don't know where your getting your info from, but there are a lot more 31khz games then 15khz. Some games with 15khz options actually switch to interlaced video in low-res even..