X68000 information sponging

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Fudoh
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Fudoh »

He then outputs it all to his 1080p LCD. He does nothing but rave about it.
oh, you shouldn't have said that - now I have to put a X68k rig on my shopping list.
X68k + mem upgrade + SCSI/CF setup + midi rig + XPC-4 - what's that again ? $1500 ? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
And other people will complain about a XBox720 or PS4 being $500+ :twisted:
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Ed Oscuro »

$1500 is probably on the low end...it's possible to spend $1000 on the X68000 alone. I think all you really need is a VGA monitor and a cable. The CF adapters (like an AztecMonster) look nice but might not even be necessary if you can just get the right cable (as mentioned before) and a SCSI hard drive (not too hard to find; I have a few 4.3GB models lying around in their original Compaq Proliant sleds).

About the XPC-4, looking at this auction (ouch!), I don't see any way to get a X68000 signal in unless that is a VGA input on the unit. And it only mentions NEC PC series (aside from more usual PC hardware types) which is probably different from X68000...well, probably just in pinout I guess, if it's standard timings there shouldn't be any insurmountable problem.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by kamiboy »

Actually my X68000 setup ended costing me a lot less than I was anticipating.

Assuming shipping is going to cost me ~$150 then I have paid ~$500 total for a compact with a keyboard, a midi interface card, a midi Yama MU80 module and all the appropriate cables and adapters to make it all work.

I am going to rely on floppies for now but if I ever want to get a CF SCSI setup going the cost is an additional $100-150.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Fudoh »

The XPC-4 has a DVI-I input, you can run a VGA cable into that. This will be something for late 2013 though. Despite the price, something like the SCSI/CF solution along with a XPC-4 takes a lot of anxiety out of the whole equation - at least for me.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Can't argue with that. CF is pretty dang reliable and a joy to use with my new USB-3 Kingston multi-format reader :mrgreen:
kamiboy wrote:I am going to rely on floppies for now but if I ever want to get a CF SCSI setup going the cost is an additional $100-150.
Did you find enough space to make the CF adapter work? That's good to know.

I probably vastly overpaid for my XVI but it was / is a new unit, can't be many of those left.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by SuperDeadite »

XPC-4 even got a firmware update for boosting X68000 support. X68K and NEC computers use the same pinout with very minor differences. Towns however has some real differences.

They might have been lost in the flood of posts, but on previous page you can see my friends quick XPC-4 demo vids. Rough but you can see it in action. I don't have one myself cause I still rock an original Sharp monitor.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I've had to junk both a X68000 and a Towns monitor :? On the plus side my own Towns has regular video output so nothing special is needed to get a picture. Good to know that X68000 and NEC PC are close. FM Towns is the odd man out then.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by kamiboy »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Did you find enough space to make the CF adapter work? That's good to know.
I haven't looked into it at all yet. I am not going to look at buying a CF solution for a long time and my Compact is still with the proxy at Japan.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Opethian »

I'll have an XPC4 next week I'll let you know how it fares on my X68030...
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Ed Oscuro »

How much did you pay, if I might ask? There was one on the 'Bay but it seemed expensive to me.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Opethian »

¥31000 + shipping
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Ed Oscuro »

woot, I just wanted to record for posterity that the connection of X68000 XVI to NEC MultiSync 31KHz VGA PC monitor was a success

all I got was the floppy disc icon but I was really happy to see it. It's only been over ten years since I embarked on the journey of X6000 gaming, and in all that time I never actually got to use one of the systems!
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Opethian »

I hook mine direct to a VGA monitor all the time. The challenge arises on the 15khz/24khz games. Like Capcom games you have blindly navigate the menues to change to a 31khz res and it works great.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I've seen instructions on doing that for various games, though, so I'm not overly worried.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Ed Oscuro »

kamiboy wrote:Macs have been the darling of artists and creative folk since the 80's.
Since the late '70s actually (see Mitchell Waite's Computer Graphics Primer, a copy is available online.)

Question for SuperDeadite - do any X68000 games benefit from a PCM Data card?
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by SuperDeadite »

What do you mean exactly? I can think of 2 things:

1. PCM channel expander boards like Mercury Unit and Polyphonic. The Polyphonic adds extra PCM channels so the 000 matches the 030. The Mercury Unit goes above and beyond the 030 and offers close to zero noise output I've been told. Of course you need to use drivers to control the thing, so custom patching is required for games. I know it can be done for the SFs to solve the FM Music dropping issue caused by the 000's only having one ADPCM channel. Also some MDX files need the extra hardware to play. I've never bothered myself though.

2. Roland PCM Data Rom cards. Add extra sounds to the 32P/64. The games Gemini Wing and Choujin can use these for improved MIDI, also the NAGDRV demo music supports these too. I posted a few links back in my huge midi post.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by ED-057 »

The Polyphonic adds extra PCM channels so the 000 matches the 030.
So the X68030 had more PCM channels (ADPCM?) than the original X68000?
Since the late '70s actually (see Mitchell Waite's Computer Graphics Primer, a copy is available online.)
Ed, is this a joke? Macs hadn't been developed yet in the '70s.
that 24khz signal has always mystified me. What is its vertical resolution? In PC monitor terms what would be the equivalent resolution?
PCs never used 24KHz, the closest thing would be the EGA 640x350 mode which is 21KHz. On the X68 24KHz mode is 424 lines or 848 interlaced.
The X68000 monitor in 15 and 31khz as well as CRT televisions have a "native" vertical resolution of ~480 raster lines which was something that stems from the rasterization process. So far as I understand for 31khz signals the electron beam makes ~480 progressive horizontal swipes across the screen to rasterize a full frame. For 15khz it makes ~240 swipes for 240p, and makes ~480 swipes for a full 480i frame but broken up into two passes, called fields, which each rasterize either the ~240 odd or even raster lines. That is why 480i looks so flickery.

Anyway, I do not care about what resolution the display can "resolve" as that is a subjective matter. what is for certain is how many horizontal swipes the electron gun makes during the raterization proces. That is what I call the native resolution.
To better understand what's going on you need to forget about the number of raster lines for a minute and consider how the horizontal and vertical frequencies are related. It's a bit complicated to explain because of differences between the official specs and the real-world usage, but here goes.

What the NTSC spec says: 525 lines * ~30 frames = 15750hz
This is called "480i."
What comes out of classic game consoles (and some computers): 262 lines * 60frames
This is called "240p."

There is enough TIME for 262/525i lines but part of that time is used for the vertical retrace so nothing can be displayed. Despite the 240/480 designations, generally the number of lines visible on the screen is not even that many, hence why a lot of systems didn't bother to generate more than 224 lines.

Now for PAL. Spec says: 625 lines * ~25 frames = 15625hz
This called "576i."
What comes out of classic systems in PAL region: 312 lines * 50frames
This is called "288p."

Again, 312/625i but that includes vertical retrace and overscan.

Notice how NTSC and PAL are both 15KHz but have different resolutions? One trades framerate for number of lines. Some TVs/monitors could display either resolution out of the box.

X68000 31KHz modes are pretty close to the 640x480x60hz VGA mode (BTW, 640x400x70hz is also a standard 31KHz mode) but with slightly lower vertical frequency and a few more displayed lines.

I don't own an X68 but if the behavior of the emulator is to be believed, when using 15KHz modes instead of 31KHz it goes back to a standard 60Hz NTSC timing and no longer displays the full 256 or 512 lines.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Ed Oscuro »

SuperDeadite wrote:2. Roland PCM Data Rom cards. Add extra sounds to the 32P/64. The games Gemini Wing and Choujin can use these for improved MIDI, also the NAGDRV demo music supports these too. I posted a few links back in my huge midi post.
That's what I meant. I'll have another look. I don't have either game though and I don't really plan to.
ED-057 wrote:Ed, is this a joke? Macs hadn't been developed yet in the '70s.
I meant the Apple II of course, got my wires crossed a little :)
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by SuperDeadite »

Ed Oscuro wrote:
SuperDeadite wrote:2. Roland PCM Data Rom cards. Add extra sounds to the 32P/64. The games Gemini Wing and Choujin can use these for improved MIDI, also the NAGDRV demo music supports these too. I posted a few links back in my huge midi post.
That's what I meant. I'll have another look. I don't have either game though and I don't really plan to.
ED-057 wrote:Ed, is this a joke? Macs hadn't been developed yet in the '70s.
I meant the Apple II of course, got my wires crossed a little :)
No Choujin? It's amazing, one of the best on the system imo. It's Takeru only, no box or anything. So just get a set of disks made up for it. Gemini Wing isn't my favorite shooter, but the MIDI is so good I often play through the first few stages over and over. As the later levels become pure bullshit.

"000" machines have only 1 ADPCM channel.
"030"s have more, I think 3 if I remember right....
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by trap15 »

I believe X68030 doesn't add any hardware other than changing the CPU (and maybe speeding up some of the existing chips).
The reason the 030 can play more ADPCM samples is because it can mix the ADPCM in real-time due to the greater CPU performance. The original X68000 is too slow to do that.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by SuperDeadite »

Ah maybe that was it. Been a long time since I've read up on anything with the 030. It's a neat machine, but there's all of 3 games that really make use of it, so I stick with the XVI :)
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Shou »

Opethian wrote:I hook mine direct to a VGA monitor all the time. The challenge arises on the 15khz/24khz games. Like Capcom games you have blindly navigate the menues to change to a 31khz res and it works great.
Some games use different video modes within the game so you really need a setup that can handle them all. Framemeister is probably the easiest way for most people.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by Shou »

kamiboy wrote:
I wonder if there are no 15khz hacked version of Akumajou available? I know crazy Japanese coders have hacked games such as Gradius to make them Arcade perfect, but in this case I doubt anyone has bothered.
There is a program which made the rounds before to force 15kHz with varying results. I say just use an slg-3000. I have one on my retro PC setup for Towns, X68 and 98 when the games are meant to be low res and have scanlines.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by kamiboy »

I play on CRT's and fake scanlines look different than real 15khz scanlines.

Would you happen to remember the name of said program?
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by gatsu25 »

I'm going to purchase an X68000 and I'm quite interested in doing a Compact Flash drive installation. I've seen a little bit, but does anyone know where a very detailed good guide is for doing so? What models will this work on? Does it have to be an X68000 with a Hard Drive already in it? Also, I saw that you need extra MB ram in the machine (6 I believe?). I have seen 1 MB cards on Yahoo auctions, but were there ever any bigger ones released for it? I would appreciate any help. Thanks!
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by trap15 »

You basically only need 2 MB. Most games require at least 2 MB (won't work with 1), but very very few require any more.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by gatsu25 »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPVyyk3d01k

According to this video, it says you need 4mb of memory for the compact flash drive to work. at the 2:11 mark I believe.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by SuperDeadite »

That video isn't the most accurate I must say. In fact the guy's HDD image was created by myself lol. It's based on the NFG "Version 3 image." But their image was way too restricted, so I rebuilt it from scratch and expanded on it. In fact that image is also way out of date, I've long since fixed many bugs, and have pretty much tripled the amount of games inside. :)

Anyways quite a few games will run off flash at 1mb. Even more will run off 2mb. After that there are games that require 4, 6, and up. In my current image I have Illusion City, which requires the full on 12mb of ram. So yes, the more RAM the better, and if you aren't going to buy original games, you may as well spend that money on RAM instead.

However, the X68k is fully capable of writing disk images back to disks completely by itself. There is almost no reason to have a computer sitting around with a 5.25 floppy drive in it. So even if you have a 1mb system and a good set of floppies, you can rewrite about 85% of the library back to disks and run them the old way.

Only thing is the older machines are SASI, not SCSI. You can run SCSI devices on SASI models, using a special driver called SxSI. It installs into SRAM (you will need to load it off a floppy). But if the SRAM corrupts, resets, battery dies, it must be reinstalled.

When running off floppy many games can take advantage of extra RAM though. An interesting example is Nemesis 90'Kai. It runs fine on 2mb of RAM at 10mhz. But, doing so it runs the PCM1 sound driver only. If you have 4mbs and 16mhz or faster machine, it loads the PCM4 driver instead, meaning you get more PCM channels, and it sounds quite a bit nicer. Thunder Blade on a 2mb machine is load, load, load. But if you have 6mbs, it only has to load each level once, then never again. Super Street Fighter 2 is 7 disks, but with enough RAM, it will fully load everything in one go, so no in game loading even if you don't have an HDD at all.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by SuperDeadite »

gatsu25 wrote:I'm going to purchase an X68000 and I'm quite interested in doing a Compact Flash drive installation. I've seen a little bit, but does anyone know where a very detailed good guide is for doing so? What models will this work on? Does it have to be an X68000 with a Hard Drive already in it? Also, I saw that you need extra MB ram in the machine (6 I believe?). I have seen 1 MB cards on Yahoo auctions, but were there ever any bigger ones released for it? I would appreciate any help. Thanks!

As for what RAM upgrade you need, it depends on your model. 1mb machines must be internally upgraded to 2mbs first. The original model uses a special 1mb upgrade. The ACE/PRO uses a different type (they use different mounting brackets, but the RAM board itself is the same). After that you can use I/O slot boards. Most are 2mb or 4mb upgrades. The XSimX (10) allows you to use RAM sims and add up to 10mbs in one slot. (12mb is the max the machine can read).

The better machines come with 2mbs internally. Now the XVI and XVI Compact can have up to 8mbs internal before needed an I/O slot board. The XVI uses a werid looking dual connector thing. There was an official Sharp one, and also the XSimVI. The Compact's internal upgrade is different, and also there was an XSimVI Compact Version (do not confuse these). The 030s have 4mbs on the mobo and with the right internal boards, can have the full 12mbs with no I/O slot boards at all. For the the XVI and Compact, be aware the early Sharp RAM I/O boards are too slow, and only access at 10mhz. Most of the 3rd party boards by IO Data and the like are faster and do run at the full 16mhz access speed.
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Re: X68000 information sponging

Post by kamiboy »

I would like to hear more about the RAM upgrade details on the Compact XVI.
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