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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:19 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:23 pm 



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:01 pm 



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 1800
Location: Denmark
Back for more midi module questions.

Will sound canvas music written for the SC55 but played on, say, an SC88VL sound exactly like they would on an SC55?


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:05 pm 



Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 547
Basically yes. The 88 uses the 55 MkII sound bank, it has some differences from a standard 55. So it would depend on if the game uses 55 features that were changed in the MkII update or not. An 88 will also sound much cleaner then a real 55. Afaik, 90% of X68K GS games were made on the original 55. Mahou Daisakusen actually does use the MkII exclusive updates and officially is not compatible with the original 55.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:52 am 



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 1800
Location: Denmark
I thought as much. I guess people in the music world just enjoy playing things fast and loose when it comes to standards. In my mind an SC55 and SC88 should be indistinguishable from one another. But after discovering that the Yamaha MU80 sounds vastly different from a SC55 when playing via the same music standard I realized how things work in the world of music hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:22 am 



Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 547
kamiboy wrote:
I thought as much. I guess people in the music world just enjoy playing things fast and loose when it comes to standards. In my mind an SC55 and SC88 should be indistinguishable from one another. But after discovering that the Yamaha MU80 sounds vastly different from a SC55 when playing via the same music standard I realized how things work in the world of music hardware.


When it comes to standardization, Roland is probably one of the worst companies out there. They have always been in their own little world and very closed minded. Even today they still randomly go after people working on MT-32 emulation. Roland General Sound was never intended to be GM compatible, early SC-55 units have a couple instrument mappings that are different from GM. Though due to customer complaints, later units were changed to the GM standard, meaning older MIDI files which used those swap instruments no longer work properly on the later units. Their hardware is a total mess really. Their latest and greatest module, the Integra 7 sounds fantastic, but released with no official software to support it. Meaning you have to do all the editing work on the module's small LCD screen itself. The Integra costs $2,000, so there really is no excuse for such nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:55 pm 



Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 10
Location: MN, USA
I thought maybe this would be a good place to ask so here goes.

I have an X68000 XVI that I have fully recapped and am still chasing issues with the power supply. I have replaced all the caps, resistors and diodes on the board along with most of the transistors (at least the ones that aren't obsolete and hard to replace). I was having problems with the 5V output from the PSU only putting out 3.94V and completely shutting down when I tried to boot a floppy. I tracked it down to a faulty IC83 shunt regulator and I now have a solid 5V output and the machine boots in 10mhz and 16mhz mode and loads disks but after the IC83 replacement I now have a horrible shrieking/whining noise from the PSU that seems to be coming from the larger transformer in the PSU. From what I can see on the schematics its likely to be either a bad transformer, a bad FMB-33S schottky diode which is long since obsolete or possibly a resistor value that doesn't match up between my board revision and the schematics in the XVI service manual pdf that is floating around out there.

I'm tired of dealing with this old overly complex power supply and I'm going to replace it with a PicoPSU. My question is what is the max wattage of the original PSU? Would a 120W PicoPSU be sufficient or should I go all the way up to the 160W? Thanks in advance for any advice.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:02 pm 



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 1800
Location: Denmark
Don't go the pico route, that is for quitters and deviants. The loud shrieking is usually due to noise in the produced voltages. You should be able to see it with an oscilloscope. I had this problem with an ACE PSU and the solution turned out to be increasing the capacitance of the filter caps. It has been years since I had peek inside the Compact PSU, but on the ACE the filter caps are rated in the 3000-6000 uF range, so prolly the biggest capacity caps in the PSU. The ACE had two, I replaced them with ones of higher capacitance and that took care of the noise which got rid of the high pitched noise.

Now I have an ACE with an original PSU like a stud and I get to bang hot supermodels like a winner (1).

*(1): YMMV


Last edited by kamiboy on Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:08 pm 



Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 10
Location: MN, USA
kamiboy wrote:
Don't go the pico route, that is for quitters and deviants. The loud shrieking is usually due to noise in the produced voltages. You should be able to see it with an oscilloscope. I had this problem with an ACE PSU and the solution turned out to be increasing the capacitance of the filter caps. It has been years since I had peek inside the Compact PSU, but on the ACE the filter caps are rated in the 3000-6000 uF range, so prolly the biggest capacity caps in the PSU. The ACE had two, I replaced them with ones of higher capacitance and that took care of the noise which got rid of the high pitched noise.


I have 5600uF filter caps installed, that was the original value and I don't think anything bigger would physically fit.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:12 pm 



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 1800
Location: Denmark
Bigger in capacitance does not mean bigger in size. You can at least try one > 6000 uF cap to see whether it helps or not. When buying from professional sites I can see the physical dimensions of caps to make sure that it will fit the enclosure or not.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:26 pm 



Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 10
Location: MN, USA
Of course I know that larger capacitance doesn't necessarily mean larger dimensions. But in my mind I shouldn't need to increase the cap values to have the PSU work properly. The noise being generated is unbearably loud, at least twice as loud as the cooling fan, to me that seems like something is very wrong. I'm also getting distortion on the video output that wasn't present before the whining started.

I don't have a scope or access to one to try and dig further into the issue so I'd rather just replace the PSU entirely and be done with it. My plan is to install it all internally to preserve the stock appearance of the machine if possible.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:36 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1025
Location: Toronto, Canada
I'm on my 4th X68K restoration this past couple of months. Started with OG (original) X68K, followed by Red Zone, compact and now got another red zone on the bench. So I understand the frustration in getting these rough diamonds to glitter!

If you look at the bottom of the system, it should tell you on the sticker (next to model number) what it's power rating is. The red zone is less than 100W. The OG had a 3A fuse! Not a lot of power.

There is nothing wrong with giving up on the original PSU. It's a piece of shit and will fail on you again after you restore it. I did cop-out and did something different with my OG X68K.

I purchased a 1U 160W power supply. It's so small, it actually fits inside the OG PSU cage! I proceeded to replace all the cheap capacitors on it with high quality ones. I then moved the PCB of the new PSU into the old cage and wired up all the original wires into the holes of the new PCB. I lastly replaced the 3A fuse with a 6.5A fuse (since new PSU is 160W) and cut off the original power cord. I used a standard PC cord in its place; I cut open the stress relief and used a dremel to make sure the bigger PC cable fits, and glued it together - it looks stock! Except now I got a USA 3 prong, properly grounded X68K rather than 2 prong.

The only thing I had to worry about is the soft power on button, but that was a simple fix. A PCB with the correct inverter chip is inside the PSU case. The X68K stock fan in the back is rated for 2X CFM's as the fan on the original 1U PSU. So I left that alone, wired into the ATX PSU. It pretty much looks STOCK when you open it! What's left on my workbench is the new ATX case, power button, fan, and power plug + OG X68K PSU PCB.

As for the Red Zone and Compact .. I find their PSU's to be much more reliable than the tower ones.. so I just did cap kits on them.

Good luck with your project. Hope this gave you some ideas.

P.S. I decided to not go the microATX route because I'm not too familiar with this technology, nor believe it to be as reliable long term as a standard power supply. Lets face it, the micro ATX just moves all the difficult work to the external 12V power supply. And in some cases, you need a serious external brick! (160W / 12V = 13.3A so 15A is recommended!) That is a very expensive external brick!


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:41 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1025
Location: Toronto, Canada
No Onions wrote:
Of course I know that larger capacitance doesn't necessarily mean larger dimensions. But in my mind I shouldn't need to increase the cap values to have the PSU work properly. The noise being generated is unbearably loud, at least twice as loud as the cooling fan, to me that seems like something is very wrong. I'm also getting distortion on the video output that wasn't present before the whining started.


When I originally recapped my OG X68K, a loud wining noise also came out of the PSU that freaked me out. When I moved the PCB out of the cage, and just ran it without being plugged into the X68K, the noise went away. Never figured out what it was.. could be grounding issue.

IF you are strongly in favour of restoring the original PSU, I strongly suggest that you do so outside the computer, and while not plugged into the computer. It should turn on its own when you just plug it into the outlet. This way, if something goes wrong.. it won't damage your computer (don't ask how I figured this one out!!! Lets just say that I got away with just a capacitor blowing up and not a CPU frying!!)


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:57 pm 



Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 10
Location: MN, USA
Thanks for the input leonk. Long shot but I don't suppose you recall which 1U power supply you used or would be able to point me towards something similar? Thinking about it now it would be cleaner to use a power supply like you did and not needing to worry about a 12V power brick.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:14 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1025
Location: Toronto, Canada
here's a popular one on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Flex-ATX-1U-30 ... Sw9GhYeASD

The one I got was the 160W version of this guy:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunpower-SPW-4 ... SwEzxYPtcg

But it had a MAJOR flaw. The 12V rail had a 1000uF cap rated at 10V!!! Of course it popped when I put a 12V load on it. I replaced them all with 16V Nichicon caps and it now works great.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:27 pm 



Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 10
Location: MN, USA
I forgot I never posted back to this thread, I ended up using a 120W PicoPSU to replace the stock power supply. I mounted it inside of the original PSU enclosure and removed the power cord and mounted the DC barrel jack for the pico in its place. I also replaced the stock cooling fan with a 60mm Noctua fan that is almost completely silent. I could probably have gone fanless using this psu but I didn't want to risk it. After letting it run with a game booted up for hours the PicoPSU was barely warm to the touch.

Anyway my X6800 is now fully functional, I installed an SD2SCSI board with one of the disk images from nfggames and now I'm good to go :D


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:40 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1025
Location: Toronto, Canada
the x68k outputs VGA/RGBHV. If one wants to feed it into an xrgb mini what is the best way to go to rgb csync? The only scart cable i saw had H and V just soldered together in the scart head! Anyone ever measured X68K output on oscilloscope to come out with best solution??


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:27 am 


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leonk wrote:
the x68k outputs VGA/RGBHV. If one wants to feed it into an xrgb mini what is the best way to go to rgb csync? The only scart cable i saw had H and V just soldered together in the scart head! Anyone ever measured X68K output on oscilloscope to come out with best solution??


You need some custom cables and an RGB sync conversion box.

The x68000 uses that old DSUB15 pinout, so you can't just plug into a sync processor box. Be careful buying a converter or cable. The x68000 output wiring is not standard and you do NOT want to use one of the Apple DSUB15 converters.

Many Extron and Kramer RGB sync boxes accept HD15 input and output BNC, but you might find some Extrons with a DSUB9 input. Copix manufacturered boxes that accept and output over BNC.

Regardless, you need an x68000 output cable wired for DSUB15 "VGA" wiring and HD15/DSUB9/BNC (depending on the RGB box you choose). After that, you'll need a cable to carry the BNC output signal (from your RGB sync box) to your Framemeister mini din.

X68000 -> custom DSUB15 "VGA to HD15 (or DSUB9 or BNC) cable -> Kramer/Copix/Extron RGB sync converter box -> custom BNC to XRGB mini din cable
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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:56 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1025
Location: Toronto, Canada
I made my own custom X68K to VGA cable. That VGA cable plugs into my 17" 4:3 VGA monitor, and works great (because it's H/V!) Knowing the X68K pinout, I acquired an X68K to Euro SCART cable. I opened it and noticed that all they do is tie HV together than run it to pin 21 (CSYNC). It works on my OG grey X68K. But it doesn't work on my compact redzone; the XRGB mini just doesn't identify it (Even though the red zone works great on the PC monitor using the VGA custom cable).

If I use a proper sync combiner .. will that make it work? What are some of the negative issues with just physically combining H&V?

I know old CRT Arcade monitors allow you to combine H&V together and sync fine ..


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:05 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1025
Location: Toronto, Canada
Finally got around to try the X68K video output on an oscilloscope!

I had a heck of a time getting solid white for the test pattern, so instead I used the trigger/1 shot feature of the oscilloscope on the insert disk menu the system shows when it first boots up. It starts with white background so it works well. I used a simple straight through SCART / X68K cable where the H and V were tied together.

Original X68K:
- R/G/B all about 1.3-1.5Vpp
- csync 31k freq - 5.7Vpp

Compact Red Zone:
- R/G/B all measured at about 1.6Vpp
- csync 31k freq - 2.64Vpp

What does all this mean??
- SCART RGB standard is only 0.7Vpp for RGB and about 0.3Vpp CSYNC. 5V CSYNC is TTL and must have resistors to reduce it or else you can damage your display device (XRGB/OSSC). This might explain why the sync inverter fails for some people! It's driving 5V into something that was designed to work with 0.3V.

Any suggestions on other tests I can do, or how I can modify the SCART cable to reduce the outputs to "safe levels". Also, why would Red Zone CSYNC be almost 1/2 that of OG X68K?


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:33 pm 



Joined: 25 Jul 2018
Posts: 1
I have an X68000 Pro II-HD on the way to me on the slow boat from Japan. It does not power on, so I assume the caps in the power supply are bad, or the whole PS is toast. I am going to recap the whole system once I receive it, and if that does not correct the power issue, then I will replace with a PicoPSU.

My question here is.. does anyone have a capacitor list for models other than the XVI or the original model? Those are the only lists that I have found thusfar. I would like to order the capacitors prior to the unit getting here, so that I can jump right in.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:56 pm 



Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 10
Location: MN, USA
leonk wrote:
Finally got around to try the X68K video output on an oscilloscope!

I had a heck of a time getting solid white for the test pattern, so instead I used the trigger/1 shot feature of the oscilloscope on the insert disk menu the system shows when it first boots up. It starts with white background so it works well. I used a simple straight through SCART / X68K cable where the H and V were tied together.

Original X68K:
- R/G/B all about 1.3-1.5Vpp
- csync 31k freq - 5.7Vpp

Compact Red Zone:
- R/G/B all measured at about 1.6Vpp
- csync 31k freq - 2.64Vpp

What does all this mean??
- SCART RGB standard is only 0.7Vpp for RGB and about 0.3Vpp CSYNC. 5V CSYNC is TTL and must have resistors to reduce it or else you can damage your display device (XRGB/OSSC). This might explain why the sync inverter fails for some people! It's driving 5V into something that was designed to work with 0.3V.

Any suggestions on other tests I can do, or how I can modify the SCART cable to reduce the outputs to "safe levels". Also, why would Red Zone CSYNC be almost 1/2 that of OG X68K?


I just saw this post today and I am now very concerned about the safety of my OSSC with the X68K. I would definitely like to know how to go about reducing the sync voltage so it doesn't break stuff

Edit - I started doing some research for my own knowledge when I got home from work, I found this in the OSSC wiki

Quote:
AV3 (VGA)
The AV3 input is a VGA/HD-15 connector which supports video in RGBHV, RGBS (pin 13), RGsB and YPbPr formats. RGBHV and RGBS modes require clean TTL-level sync signals and cannot extract sync from composite video or luma. AV3 is best suited for high-quality input sources as video LPF functionality is limited (the AV1 and AV2 inputs are routed through a dedicated LPF chip). Therefore, it is generally recommended to connect older consoles and arcade boards to these other inputs.


VGA is a different spec than RGB SCART and it looks like TTL sync of 5V is normal and expected so it should be just fine with the OSSC, which makes sense because I've been using the OSSC with my XVI for a few months now without it causing problems.


Last edited by No Onions on Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:42 pm 


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If your using AV3 dont worry.
If your using AV1 scart add a 470R resistor inline to sync.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:49 pm 



Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 10
Location: MN, USA
Syntax wrote:
If your using AV3 dont worry.
If your using AV1 scart add a 470R resistor inline to sync.


You replied when I was editing my post, thanks for the confirmation of what I was reading :)


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:58 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1025
Location: Toronto, Canada
Syntax wrote:
If your using AV3 dont worry.
If your using AV1 scart add a 470R resistor inline to sync.


But X68K is not CSYNC. It's SYNCHV .. you just tie H and V together? That's a poor way to combine them.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:19 am 



Joined: 16 Sep 2015
Posts: 10
This might work
http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html

Does anyone have experience using the X68k with a BVM?


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:48 am 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 179
Location: germany
famiac wrote:
This might work
http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html

Does anyone have experience using the X68k with a BVM?


It won`t work on 15 khz only bvm due to its odd output signals. maybe you can get it somehow working with a scanconverter such as the corio2 in between.
If it is a multiformat BVM an upscaler like xrgb-2 or ossc+extron interface might work as well.

IMHO the X68000 has to be used on nothing but a trisync monitor anyway. That`s why I never tested any of above setups myself.


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:41 pm 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 179
Location: germany
Out of curiosity I hooked up the OSSC to a BVM-D20 to see if I can get at least a stable 31khz out of it. I set the OSSC to passthrough 568p and reduced the h-synclen to 88. At least I am getting a stable 31khz picture without all that bleeding and leaking that I got when only using x68000>extron RGHBV to RGBS>D20
I still have to play around with the settings and see if I can get a perfect 31khz out of it. It might be possible.
240/260p passthrough on the other side looks good okay to me. Sure this must can be tweaked as well for better results.

here the setup:
X68000 VGA>OSSC>HDMI Out into HD Fury 2>Extron RXI>RGBs BNC into D20

https://imgur.com/a/NxyddIi


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:00 pm 


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out of sheer interest: where can I find any info about the three (?) exact output timings the X68000 uses in everyday use ?


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 Post subject: Re: X68000 information sponging
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:04 pm 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 179
Location: germany
Fudoh wrote:
out of sheer interest: where can I find any info about the three (?) exact output timings the X68000 uses in everyday use ?


The thing is, that this is not the case on the x68000 :D .
It seems to me that every single game does have it`s "own" timings.
Here are the results from 4 games that I boot up in row. Every single one does have a different timings according to the OSSC. I think all Capcom titles do boot up with the same timings though.
Also a bunch of games do have an option to switch between 4 different resolutions in the options menu.

https://imgur.com/a/Ncqzsw7


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