Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I'm sure you thought of this, but where on the monitor (left-right) are those numbers displayed? (I haven't used a lag tester so this is mostly honest curiosity.) They should all be in a straight row, one immediately above the other. And on that note I wonder if the pixel addressing hardware in the set has some kind of unusual quirk that causes significant differences in response in different sections. Doesn't make sense to me though.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by NWrain »

the bars are toward the left side of the monitor and the number is displayed near the middle. The original post by Fudoh has a good picture of how it is laid out.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I see it now. The bars don't look wide enough to provoke such a big discrepancy from one side to another. I wonder what happens if you hold the sensor over the bottom left portion of each bar, though.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by marqs »

NWrain wrote:I used the Leo tester on my new Eizo Foris FS2333. Here are my results. The picture order is top bar, middle bar, and bottom bar. What does this mean? Do I have a nearly lagless monitor, or a monitor with 1 frame of lag?
Does the lag tester provide an option to select which of those bars you use as the target? If not, the numbers look valid since there is ~14ms difference between the top and bottom bar (in input signal too). Funny that the lag seems to be only 2ms on HDMI, my FS2333 measured ~7ms on VGA.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Fudoh »

But how does a difference of nearly a frame between the upper and lower bar make any sense ? I get the little differences. The picture is drawn top line to bottom line and since the lag tester uses certain minimum brightness to measure the lag it makes sense to get a difference in the readings. But LCD are hold-type displays, which means a picture a frame is created is then hold until the next frame is ready for display. If a screen took a whole frame to draw a single frame, you'd see tearing, since the top of the screen would get overwritten by a new frame, while the lower part is still shown from the previous frame.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by marqs »

Fudoh wrote:But how does a difference of nearly a frame between the upper and lower bar make any sense ? I get the little differences. The picture is drawn top line to bottom line and since the lag tester uses certain minimum brightness to measure the lag it makes sense to get a difference in the readings. But LCD are hold-type displays, which means a picture a frame is created is then hold until the next frame is ready for display. If a screen took a whole frame to draw a single frame, you'd see tearing, since the top of the screen would get overwritten by a new frame, while the lower part is still shown from the previous frame.
I was speculating that earlier in this thread, but the LCDs I've tested (Eizo FS2333 and Nec 1990SXi) refresh the pixels at the same rate as the input signal according to the results - from top-left to bottom right. I guess it's harder to see the tearing since it's not in the same place for the frame duration (vs video source not being synced to vblank).
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by NWrain »

Ed Oscuro wrote:I see it now. The bars don't look wide enough to provoke such a big discrepancy from one side to another. I wonder what happens if you hold the sensor over the bottom left portion of each bar, though.
I don't get a stable reading. It takes a while to search for a stable reading.
marqs wrote:Does the lag tester provide an option to select which of those bars you use as the target? If not, the numbers look valid since there is ~14ms difference between the top and bottom bar (in input signal too). Funny that the lag seems to be only 2ms on HDMI, my FS2333 measured ~7ms on VGA.
The lag tester shows all three bars at the same time. One on top, middle, and bottom. I just hover the tester over the bar to get a reading. I have gotten readings as low as 1.7ms on the top bar on the HDMI input. I don't have a HDMI to VGA converter, so I unfortunately cannot test the VGA input. I tested the DVI input with a HDMI to DVI cable, and the readings are going wild. The readings constantly shift. While on DVI the top bar will display a number anywhere from 1.6ms to 5ms as if it is constantly refreshing..
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by marqs »

NWrain wrote:The lag tester shows all three bars at the same time. One on top, middle, and bottom. I just hover the tester over the bar to get a reading. I have gotten readings as low as 1.7ms on the top bar on the HDMI input. I don't have a HDMI to VGA converter, so I unfortunately cannot test the VGA input. I tested the DVI input with a HDMI to DVI cable, and the readings are going wild. The readings constantly shift. While on DVI the top bar will display a number anywhere from 1.6ms to 5ms as if it is constantly refreshing..
Have you turned ECO mode off? I got pretty stable readings (+-0.2ms) from FS2333 with my lag tester attached to a single spot, using maximum panel brightness. I set the brightness threshold of my tester relatively high, which may explain the ~5ms difference in our results.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by NWrain »

ECO mode was off. I turned up brightness, contrast, black level to 100.

Leo Tester on HDMI input. Overdrive off. Measurement of top bar
Image

Leo Tester on DVI Input. Overdrive off. Measurement of top bar
Image

The bottom bar on both inputs still read 16.6-16.7ms. I also get faster readings with overdrive off.

I received .9 ms faster reading. I did this on my HDTV earlier in the thread, and I saw 1ms faster reading on full brightness compared to normal.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by marqs »

NWrain wrote:ECO mode was off. I turned up brightness, contrast, black level to 100.

Leo Tester on HDMI input. Overdrive off. Measurement of top bar
Image

Leo Tester on DVI Input. Overdrive off. Measurement of top bar
Image

The bottom bar on both inputs still read 16.6-16.7ms. I also get faster readings with overdrive off.

I received .9 ms faster reading. I did this on my HDTV earlier in the thread, and I saw 1ms faster reading on full brightness compared to normal.
Ok, good to hear that the readings stay constant now. I'd keep contrast and black level at default 50, since they are just for image pre-processing and not controlling the actual panel backlight. ~16ms is a valid value for the bottom bar, that would be close to the result which you'd get from a CRT too.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by brownvim »

Is that the best monitor input lag wise? The FS2333?

Know of any 120hz monitors that are that good?

I found this website where the dude is testing screens with the same device http://www.displaylag.com/
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by NWrain »

It’s pretty complicated.

What is your budget? What size monitor are you interested in with what aspect ratio? What are you interested in doing with it? Do you have any preference for panel types such as IPS/PLS PVA/MVA TN film? Do you want 120hz just for PC games, or also for retro games? As far as I know all 120hz monitors use TN panels, which you may not like.

I can’t say I like the format of the reviews on that website. I am a fan of http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html. They do very in depth reviews, and the method they use for testing latency is very accurate. There are other websites out there, but I can’t name them off the top of my head.

Sorry to answer your question with questions, but I think people need to know more before giving any recommendations.
Last edited by NWrain on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Corrodias »

Ah, it seems to be unavailable again for now. No products to list.

Next, i'd like to see some interlaced and progressive analog outputs, so you can see how long video processors take to do their thing and how well displays handle converting analog inputs.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by brownvim »

NWrain wrote:It’s pretty complicated.

What is your budget? What size monitor are you interested in with what aspect ratio? What are you interested in doing with it? Do you have any preference for panel types such as IPS/PLS PVA/MVA TN film? Do you want 120hz just for PC games, or also for retro games? As far as I know all 120hz monitors use TN panels, which you may not like.

I can’t say I like the format of the reviews on that website. I am a fan of http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html. They do very in depth reviews, and the method they use for testing latency is very accurate. There are other websites out their, but I can’t name them off the top of my head.

Sorry to answer your question with questions, but I think people need to know more before giving any recommendations.
My budget is high, I want the best input lag wise. Iv currently got the Asus VG236H its 120hz and 3D with which feels like relatively low input lag, think I paid around £250-300 for it a while ago now.

The input I would like is just hdmi really, I can see myself getting a framemeister to connect retro things up. Speakers or ports for speakers/headphones would be nice but not essential.

It doesn't need to be 120hz as I want it purely for console gaming, I have Xbox 360 and PS3 which I think run at 60hz. Next generation consoles I can't see running at 120hz either, It would be great if they did as its so fluid but you need a really good card to get those frame rates.
I want lowest input lag 60hz wise.

Glossy or matte screen I don't mind. Although the gloss I'm used to now with it giving a sharper picture.

No bigger than 23inches as I like to play close up.

Now panel type I'm gonna have to research as I do t know much about it, send some links my way if you know of any.

Thanks alot, Vim

Edit: done a little reading and ideally would like an IPS panel with the low input lag if they exist! Oh and widescreen aspect ratio. When I put my monitor into game mode the colours are horrible that must be the TN panel you said I wouldn't like.

I can put up with a TN panel as its what a currently have, the way the game responds and feels is the most important thing to me.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Ex-Cyber »

Ed Oscuro wrote:And on that note I wonder if the pixel addressing hardware in the set has some kind of unusual quirk that causes significant differences in response in different sections. Doesn't make sense to me though.
The only thing that comes to mind along these lines is that some LCD controllers refresh diagonally, but I've only specifically heard of those being used in mobile devices.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Fudoh »

My budget is high, I want the best input lag wise
is/was the Dell 2312. Matte display, 23" IPS, basically lag free.
Second to that is the Dell 2440, Glossy, 24" IPS, less than half a frame of lag.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Here's a panel which looks rather enticing:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/hazro_hz30wie.htm

4ms average lag tested, 30", 2560x1600. The main thing I'd be wondering about is scaling of 1080p material (if that becomes necessary i.e. with a Framemeister or direct connection) or analogue inputs (which is quite flexible and seems not horribly laggy on my Planar), and of course you will want a beefy video card to drive it, especially if you do PC native games.

These screens seem like a waste just to drive console gaming though. At least the Dell Fudoh mentioned drives a 1080p native panel. Still seems like overkill for console gaming, but I don't know what could be better than .6ms average (TFTCentral noted 10ms spikes occasionally, although that's still not very problematic - I think that's only 2/3 the average input lag of my display) input lag.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Fudoh »

Problem with the latest Hazros is that they have no menu whatsoever and are designed for usage on the PC only.
At least the Dell Fudoh mentioned drives a 1080p native panel. Still seems like overkill for console gaming
but at least the 23/24" Dells are rather affordable given that they use IPS panels. I would never use a TN panel instead just for saving 50 $/GBP/EUR.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Indeed! I looked at the pricing on the Dell and it's around the $250 mark - very good in my opinion. I wouldn't buy one as a primary PC monitor (because of the skimpy vertical real estate of 1080p, and a 23" 16:9 at that) but I find myself tempted to get one to replace the composite TV connection I've been using for the 360...not affordable for me at the moment but maybe I should shift some hardware to make room for one!
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by brownvim »

Fudoh wrote:
My budget is high, I want the best input lag wise
is/was the Dell 2312. Matte display, 23" IPS, basically lag free.
Second to that is the Dell 2440, Glossy, 24" IPS, less than half a frame of lag.
Im getting mixed reviews about the S2440L being a IPS panel and a VA panel, which one is it?
The FS2223 comes to around £300.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by NWrain »

I took a quick look. Some reviews say that it has a AMVA panel, and others advertise it as IPS. I wonder if it is a panel lottery monitor?
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Fudoh »

you're right, it's a VA panel, but that's even better than a IPS one. Everything's better than a TN panel. The 27" version of the Dell (only a little more expensive) does use a IPS one though.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by brownvim »

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Any chance we could test to see how much the Framemeister lags in its different modes?
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by NWrain »

I tried the lag tester on the XRGB-Mini a while back. I used the HDMI port on the Framemeister and had the input and output at 1080P.

Lag tester direct to monitor:
Top Bar: 1.3 ms
Bottom Bar: 16.6 ms

Lag tester through XRGB Mini using HDMI Port (This is going off of memory)
Top Bar Approximately 17.X ms
Bottom Bar Approximately 33 ms

I thought that the HDMI ports on the Framemeister were supposed to be pass through ports.

I unfortunately have no way of testing the RGB or Component input of the Framemeister.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by brownvim »

Wow a frame atleast, didn't think it was going to be that bad. I was expecting that for the processing mode, not the quicker mode.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by Fudoh »

there have been reports about a few measurements in the Mini thread already. 1 to 1.5 frames seems valid. My results on the RGB input all range in the 23-24ms area. Doesn't matter which processing mode. Micomsoft announced less processing on the HDMI ports with the next update. This might reduce the lag on the HDMI ports as well.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by brownvim »

Thanks, good to know. Ill keep an eye on the mini thread.
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by marqs »

Fudoh wrote:there have been reports about a few measurements in the Mini thread already. 1 to 1.5 frames seems valid. My results on the RGB input all range in the 23-24ms area. Doesn't matter which processing mode. Micomsoft announced less processing on the HDMI ports with the next update. This might reduce the lag on the HDMI ports as well.
I hope they'd fix the internal lag display with the same update. Now the number seems to be 1 frame (2 with interlaced content) ahead of reality. Wouldn't look that good anymore, but better to be honest...
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by akumajo »

Today I tested Optoma GT750 projector (supposed to have low input lag). Input lag is 33ms, the same as my previous projector. Picture quality was inferior too...
So I will return it and be back to a tv ... Another quest is starting !
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Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !

Post by akumajo »

for those interested, there is an online database of HDTV/Monitor (all tested with Leo Tester) : http://www.displaylag.com/display-database

I'm surprised about Plasma input lag ! I heard that PANASONIC ST50 *WAS/IS* 16 ms but it is not :o .

We should to do something similar for our scalers ...
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