SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

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Josh128
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Josh128 »

The sync information is contained in the luma signal, but actual picture definition information is also contained in that same signal, so its not exactly the same. You plug Luma only into the Svideo connector or the green on a YPrPb component connector and you will get a very crisp, black & white picture on your display. You plug a composite sync signal only into an RGBS connector and you will get nothing but a black screen. We know this already, sure, but they are quite different, because of this.

As far as sharpness related to sync, I dont think thats the case. The only difference between sync-on-composite and pure composite sync is the latter's lack of vertical or diagonal jailbars that are only barely noticeable on solid colors. The actual edges of pixels are the same sharpness regardless . You either have sync or you dont, theres not a whole lot of in between. The real sharpness comes from the luma and chroma signals and the lack of crosstalk between the two and the sync signal when connected to the display. Luma signal itself is directly derived from a specific ratio of chroma signals.
nmalinoski
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by nmalinoski »

Josh128 wrote:You plug a composite sync signal only into an RGBS connector and you will get nothing but a black screen.
By "RGBS connector", do you mean SCART (Or JP-21)?
Josh128 wrote:The only difference between sync-on-composite and pure composite sync is the latter's lack of vertical or diagonal jailbars that are only barely noticeable on solid colors.
I believe that interference only happens if you use cheap, unshielded or poorly-shielded cables; there should be no visual interference when using a cable that properly shields the composite video/sync line.
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Josh128
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Josh128 »

nmalinoski wrote:
Josh128 wrote:You plug a composite sync signal only into an RGBS connector and you will get nothing but a black screen.
By "RGBS connector", do you mean SCART (Or JP-21)?

The physical connector doesnt matter. Im talking about RGBS (or RGBs) via SCART, RCA, or BNC.
Josh128 wrote:The only difference between sync-on-composite and pure composite sync is the latter's lack of vertical or diagonal jailbars that are only barely noticeable on solid colors.
I believe that interference only happens if you use cheap, unshielded or poorly-shielded cables; there should be no visual interference when using a cable that properly shields the composite video/sync line.
It has nothing to do with cables, its because you are muxing two or more video signals onto a single wire, thereby reducing the analog bandwidth available to each signal. Composite video is one wire for all video signals, S-video is two wires for all video signals, component video is three wires, and RGBs is 4 wires. You have much greater bandwidth in 3 wires than one, and dont have to use filters to separate out specific signals.
nmalinoski
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by nmalinoski »

Josh128 wrote:It has nothing to do with cables, its because you are muxing two or more video signals onto a single wire, thereby reducing the analog bandwidth available to each signal. Composite video is one wire for all video signals, S-video is two wires for all video signals, component video is three wires, and RGBs is 4 wires. You have much greater bandwidth in 3 wires than one, and dont have to use filters to separate out specific signals.
I won't argue the image degradation resulting from YC, CVBS, or RF. If that was your point, I clearly missed it; the way your post was written made it seem to me to be regarding the interference to RGB signals typically caused by using composite video as sync without properly shielding the sync line.
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tjstogy
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by tjstogy »

geiger9 wrote: Currently using s-video on a JVC i'Art CRT. I had planned on using a SCART to YPbPr transcoder with the CRT.
This is the way to go, especially if you are hooking up more than one console. I love my auto scart switcher > transcoder > crt setup, and would recommend it to anybody.
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Josh128
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Josh128 »

tjstogy wrote:
geiger9 wrote: Currently using s-video on a JVC i'Art CRT. I had planned on using a SCART to YPbPr transcoder with the CRT.
This is the way to go, especially if you are hooking up more than one console. I love my auto scart switcher > transcoder > crt setup, and would recommend it to anybody.
Agree 100%. Using Keene SC > CSY 2100 clone > CRT and its near perfect now that I got the Keene fixed.
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bond.san
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by bond.san »

On my PAL 1CHIP-01 using borti's 4.1a bypass I am looking for suitable vias to connect to.

Between the S-CPUN and the S-RBG A there are 160 Ohm resistors (R6, R7, R8) on the mainboard,
will these effect the input to the bypass board signal significantly using these via's?
Are these three resistors already considered in the pcb design?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EBEANh3HcPoYJkYN7
https://www.assembler-games.com/threads ... ost-768707
"are a passive current sink to convert the DAC current to a voltage level"

With regards to R13, R14, R15 being 39Ω "for a PAL cable" should I have
75Ω resistors to ground on the RGB lines ( as wave reflection dampers ? ) ?
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uberpolka
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by uberpolka »

Just picked up my first SFC from ebay.

Pristine condition :)

High serial but wasn't noted as a 1chip in the auction.

S25002509
1chip-01
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mistamontiel
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by mistamontiel »

James-F wrote:Like it or not, a 2chip is still the most accurate snes around, and may show little difference to the 1chip on a consumer CRT with Composite/S-Video which 99.99% of non-fanatics in the 90s used to use.
..I've only exposed myself to s-vid in 2012 (shame I know!) The west's RGB until component

But the SNES got me own even later and the other day I've purchased a Japanese one a Super Famicom. Then I forgot all these revision 123chip rage (I do have a SD2SNES mk3 pro too, think may tell what revisions I have)

So does this apply to me doing strictly s-vid and totally avoiding SCART/JP21? (sure I've long own a SCART on-luma by RGC here but din't like the to-HDMI display fakery, nor do I seek B/P VMs)

Cheers
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by thchardcore »

Bought a Japanese unit CPU RGB-01. With the reverse LPF set to 8, it looks better than my 1 chip SFC Jr with all the geeked out bypass shit. Just some minor jail bars but no vertical band. 470 uf cap did nathan.

One thing people never mention is how far off the colors on the 1-chip/minis are. The overblown whites are well known, but no mod seems to correct it entirely while maintaining proper contrast. Maybe that is part of it. I find the non-1 chip units far easier on the eyes.

For inaccuracies, which are far more than just ~10 games, I will keep the non 1-chipper. The older SFC I had way back was an APU unit and maybe I just had a dud, but that thing had pretty terrible picture.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Tempest_2084 »

Maybe this has been answered already, but I have both a RGB-02 and an APU-01 available to me. Is there a difference in the video quality between these two revisions using RGB or are they basically the same?

My second question is: can either of these two models be modded to improve the RGB? I'm using a PVM and I think the text tends to have a fuzzy look to it, especially if it's white.
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Gunstar
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Gunstar »

Tempest_2084 wrote:Maybe this has been answered already, but I have both a RGB-02 and an APU-01 available to me. Is there a difference in the video quality between these two revisions using RGB or are they basically the same?

My second question is: can either of these two models be modded to improve the RGB? I'm using a PVM and I think the text tends to have a fuzzy look to it, especially if it's white.
Looking at the console5 page for those models they look to have the same encoder (Audio looks to have been consolidated on the APU-01 as the main revision difference?).

I have an APU-01, white text to me looks fairly sharp, it's slightly softer than a 1CHIP but I wouldn't call it fuzzy (personally I prefer the softer output). My APU-01 has issues with CX4 games though (Mega Man X2/X3) with jail bars and noise that don't seem to have a solution currently, strangely other games seem fine, no noise on the blue Zelda: ALTTP splash screen, same for Super Mario Kart and FFV. I've done nearly all suggested mods (decoupling cap mods for ram/CPU, new voltage regulator+470ufCap+22uf on the output circuit, pin-3 lift on PPU2, TRIAD PSU, playing through an SD2SNES) apart from an RGB bypass which seeing Jeff's struggles on previous pages I don't think it would help. I wouldn't really recommend either of them assuming the RGB-02 behaves the same way as the APU-01.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Tempest_2084 »

Gunstar wrote:I have an APU-01, white text to me looks fairly sharp, it's slightly softer than a 1CHIP but I wouldn't call it fuzzy (personally I prefer the softer output). My APU-01 has issues with CX4 games though (Mega Man X2/X3) with jail bars and noise that don't seem to have a solution currently, strangely other games seem fine, no noise on the blue Zelda: ALTTP splash screen, same for Super Mario Kart and FFV. I've done nearly all suggested mods (decoupling cap mods for ram/CPU, new voltage regulator+470ufCap+22uf on the output circuit, pin-3 lift on PPU2, TRIAD PSU, playing through an SD2SNES) apart from an RGB bypass which seeing Jeff's struggles on previous pages I don't think it would help. I wouldn't really recommend either of them assuming the RGB-02 behaves the same way as the APU-01.
I believe you're right that they're basically the same except the audio has been combined into one unit on the APU-01. I did some research after I posted that.

The more I look at it, I think the issue is really that my PVM is a lower end model (1943-MD) and probably getting worn out a bit so it's not as sharp as it used to be. I think this combined with the not so great RGB out of the SNES (compared to other consoles) is what I'm seeing. I did adjust the focus a smidgen (like literally one knob ridge to the left) and it helped a little. I don't think it's worth spending $100+ on a 1CHIP to see if gets any better, although some day I want to see the two side by side so I can see what all the fuss is about. Pictures on the internet just aren't the same.
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by FinalBaton »

My non 1 chip SNES looks so much better via S-video than RGB I swear. Perfectly enjoyable picure. While it's RGB is putrid... so I keep that one hooked up via s-video.

My other (SFC) is a 1 Chip 03 and while it's RGB signal is a bit blown out, it still looks really good. And I don't wanna mod it, it's such a beautiful console (I opened it last week and after seeing the guts and the rf shield, I just got afraid of messing it up so I closed it back lol).
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by KPackratt2k »

FinalBaton wrote:My non 1 chip SNES looks so much better via S-video than RGB I swear. Perfectly enjoyable picure. While it's RGB is putrid... so I keep that one hooked up via s-video.

My other (SFC) is a 1 Chip 03 and while it's RGB signal is a bit blown out, it still looks really good. And I don't wanna mod it, it's such a beautiful console (I opened it last week and after seeing the guts and the rf shield, I just got afraid of messing it up so I closed it back lol).
What revision is the board on your non-1-chip SNES? I remember one other guy on this forum had a launch model SNES that was super smeary on RGB while its S-Video looked clean, yet the 1994 model 3-chip SNES that MLiG covered in their SNES episode had a slight, but noticeable smear on both S-Video and RGB when looking closely in their comparison shots. I must've gotten lucky because my launch model SNES (SHVC-CPU-01) doesn't have a noticeable smear on S-Video nor RGB, it looks about as clean as a 1-chip to me on every RGB-modded TV I've tested it with.
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by azmun »

Quite interesting reading reports of SNES/SFC revisions and the disparity in the quality of their video outputs. Another thing that s-video has over RGB (and to a lesser extent, component) is on Sony PVMs (and I'm gonna assume BVMs), you've got more options to dial in the picture quality. I like that I can tune the aperture (sharpness), brightness, chroma (color), phase (tint) and finally, contrast. While I've yet to adjust chroma and phase (I keep them at default), I like to max out the aperture grille and lower brightness and contrast. Using RGB gives much fewer options.
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azmun
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by azmun »

thchardcore wrote:Bought a Japanese unit CPU RGB-01. With the reverse LPF set to 8, it looks better than my 1 chip SFC Jr with all the geeked out bypass shit. Just some minor jail bars but no vertical band. 470 uf cap did nathan.

One thing people never mention is how far off the colors on the 1-chip/minis are. The overblown whites are well known, but no mod seems to correct it entirely while maintaining proper contrast. Maybe that is part of it. I find the non-1 chip units far easier on the eyes.

For inaccuracies, which are far more than just ~10 games, I will keep the non 1-chipper. The older SFC I had way back was an APU unit and maybe I just had a dud, but that thing had pretty terrible picture.
Imma give an alternative (and maybe more mainstream?) viewpoint. I recently had my SFC Jr. professionally installed with a Voultar RGB bypass kit and I must say, thing looks incredible. Pixels have become razor sharp. I didn't care much for the stock (and especially non 1-chip) units and agree with the general finding that RGB output of Nintendo's 16-bit console isn't as clean and nice as other systems. Now it rivals my MD, SS, PS, etc.!
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Tempest_2084
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Tempest_2084 »

azmun wrote:Quite interesting reading reports of SNES/SFC revisions and the disparity in the quality of their video outputs. Another thing that s-video has over RGB (and to a lesser extent, component) is on Sony PVMs (and I'm gonna assume BVMs), you've got more options to dial in the picture quality. I like that I can tune the aperture (sharpness), brightness, chroma (color), phase (tint) and finally, contrast. While I've yet to adjust chroma and phase (I keep them at default), I like to max out the aperture grille and lower brightness and contrast. Using RGB gives much fewer options.
I'm going to find out as I have a SNES S-Video cable coming in the mail (I can't believe I didn't already own one). Right now I have two systems hooked up to the S-Video (Atari 5200 and 2600) and I'm seeing some color bleed on both of them, especially with blue. I'm not sure if it's the video mods I'm using (neither natively outputs S-Video), but I wonder if the S-Video on my PVM is just crappy. We'll see...

So is a modded jr better than a 1Chip then? I used to have a SNES jr, but I stupidly sold it years ago when no one wanted them.
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azmun
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by azmun »

Tempest_2084 wrote:I'm going to find out as I have a SNES S-Video cable coming in the mail (I can't believe I didn't already own one). Right now I have two systems hooked up to the S-Video (Atari 5200 and 2600) and I'm seeing some color bleed on both of them, especially with blue. I'm not sure if it's the video mods I'm using (neither natively outputs S-Video), but I wonder if the S-Video on my PVM is just crappy. We'll see...

So is a modded jr better than a 1Chip then? I used to have a SNES jr, but I stupidly sold it years ago when no one wanted them.
Hopefully, what arrives is a quality s-video cable. Yeah, can't say for sure what's causing the color bleed (it may be related to your PVM or the console's internal mod job). Not sure how you can rule out which is the culprit. Perhaps you've considered lowering the chroma (color)? That may alleviate the issue. A SFC/SNES Jr. is essentially a 1CHIP. It makes most sense to mod a Jr. since the stock version was stripped down of s-video and RGB functionality which the hack restores back. That said, my modded Jr. (utilizing a THS7374 video amp) produces a noticeable and significantly sharper graphics than my stock 1CHIP. Maybe I should recap my stock 1CHIP as it is an older unit by at least a few years and I believe those jobs can help improve video output?
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Tempest_2084 »

Are PVMs (I have a 1943-MD) known for having crappy S-Video or anything? My gut says it's the mod, but we'll see.

BTW is there any way to adjust the tint/hue/phase except through the front buttons on the 1943MD? Is there maybe an internal adjust that I can play with? Some of the colors look a little off through S-Video and the phase button on the front can't fix them properly (I get one set of colors fixed but another gets off).
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by azmun »

Tempest_2084 wrote:Are PVMs (I have a 1943-MD) known for having crappy S-Video or anything? My gut says it's the mod, but we'll see.

BTW is there any way to adjust the tint/hue/phase except through the front buttons on the 1943MD? Is there maybe an internal adjust that I can play with? Some of the colors look a little off through S-Video and the phase button on the front can't fix them properly (I get one set of colors fixed but another gets off).
I'm by no means an expert but a friend reported issues he faced with an aging (and/or heavily used) PVM. Some of the things which may be off and is not uncommon--geometry and color/brightness. In my setup (SFC Jr. with Voultar bypass mod and OEV 203), s-video comes very close to RGB video signal. Perhaps I got lucky with my unit. You could probably further adjustments via service menu but I'm not one who is familiar (nor brave) to mess with the default settings.
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Tempest_2084 »

I got my S-Video cable today and the output looks pretty much almost the same as the RGB. I think the RGB might be just a smidgen sharper, but it's darn close. I think the colors look 'deeper' on the RGB but that could be because I need to bump the chroma for the S-Video setting. One disadvantage of the S-Video is that I can't use my image shifter with it so I'm stuck with the screen being slightly off center it would seem (which is weird because I used the SNES RGB output to center it originally).
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by bobrocks95 »

Tempest_2084 wrote:(which is weird because I used the SNES RGB output to center it originally).
Encoding the chroma channel for S-Video is going to add a slight delay that will shift the picture. Like people doing RGB mods on TVs getting different centering depending on where they feed the signal on the jungle chip.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Tempest_2084 »

bobrocks95 wrote:
Tempest_2084 wrote:(which is weird because I used the SNES RGB output to center it originally).
Encoding the chroma channel for S-Video is going to add a slight delay that will shift the picture. Like people doing RGB mods on TVs getting different centering depending on where they feed the signal on the jungle chip.
Oh good to know. I always wondered what caused that.
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by kitty666cats »

azmun wrote:Quite interesting reading reports of SNES/SFC revisions and the disparity in the quality of their video outputs. Another thing that s-video has over RGB (and to a lesser extent, component) is on Sony PVMs (and I'm gonna assume BVMs), you've got more options to dial in the picture quality. I like that I can tune the aperture (sharpness), brightness, chroma (color), phase (tint) and finally, contrast. While I've yet to adjust chroma and phase (I keep them at default), I like to max out the aperture grille and lower brightness and contrast. Using RGB gives much fewer options.
This is how I feel about consumer CRT that already have component, yet people proceed to RGB mod anyway. So silly! Having the option to adjust settings on a per-content basis is great. And on a properly calibrated display, component should be indistinguishable from RGB anyway :P
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by maxtherabbit »

conversely, bypassing all those adjustments removes the possibility of them being maladjusted for those of us who do not enjoy spending hours in menus

I'm not anti-component, it is a great format, but most of my devices output RGB natively and transcoders are frankly dick cancer
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by nissling »

azmun wrote:Using RGB gives much fewer options.
The only real options you are really missing out on are phase and chroma in the user menus, none of which are needed as RGB has nominal values. Aperture features will only end up giving halos which looks like crap. Brightness and contrast can be adjusted with RGB, as well as white balance. Phase and chroma should only be changed from default if the color matrix is off.

As long as reference levels and white balance are correct, there really isn't much that can go wrong with RGB thankfully.
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Tempest_2084 »

So I finally got around to testing the S-Video on my PVM 1943-MD with a system that can run the 240p test suite. I've been suspicious that the S-Video input has blue bleed issues, but I haven't had a way to easily test it. Now using my SNES S-Video cable I can run the 240p suite. The results are somewhat inconclusive. You can see in these pictures (sort of) that the blue bleed check isn't as clean as the red and green, but you can still see the individual bars. I'm not sure if it's worth playing with the BIAS/GAIN or not.
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maton1200
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by maton1200 »

Hi Guys,

Sorry to revive this old thread but I am having an issue with my SNES which I am describing here : https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.p ... 2#p1523212

In summary, I used to have a SNES SNS-CPU-GPM-01 and now I have a SNS-CPU-RGB-01 in which I have noticed a significantly worse video quality due to a diagonal line pattern that makes the image looks like crochet and I did not expect that since I was under the impression only APU models were the ones with diagonal line issues

I am playing over S-Video with no interest of upgrading to RGB. I hope there is some known workaround nowadays.

If not I guess I can start considering perhaps getting a 1chip model but those are prone to jailbar and overbrightness issues which is why I am reluctant.
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Rulumi
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Rulumi »

I think the problem may come to two things, the design of the video circuit on the board itself may be a bit noisy as usually all models after the SHVC-CPU-01 gets it noiser and noiser.

The other and may be as important is that SNS-CPU-RGB-0X motherboards uses an S-RGB video encoder (exact one used on 1CHIP models) instead of the S-ENC video encoder. Bypassing the video encoder with an S-ENC or a modern one and/or it's own board instead the motherboard one should improve things.

Also if you only want S-Video I recommend an original design system (2 PPUs and 1 CPU) instead of the 1CHIPs, the 1CHIP internally works quite differently and has bugs in various games. Most of the time they are minor graphical problems in specific parts (garbage dots on some part of the screen), but it's alarming in how many it happens.

In compairison to the 1CHIP, clone systems which use the same internal design for their three clone chips (1 PPU with the 2 PPUs design inside, 1 CPU and 1 SPC700 clone) since they created them in the 90s (they were released around 1994-1995). While clones may have a few more major issue games than what's currently reported of the 1CHIP, in total clone systems may have less problems and bugs with games than the 1CHIPs (but as said, the 1CHIP problems are usually minor graphical errors in specific parts, but they really happen in a lot of games).
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