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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:28 am 


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Joined: 23 Mar 2018
Posts: 28
Analog RGB inputs in CRTs have some headroom before clipping; it's not like if amplitude goes above 713mV it is certainly clipped, no.
With stock SFC 1Chip-02 I can clearly see all IRE steps with equal intensity between them on my Sony KV-29FX20K.
0.8vAC peak will most definitely NOT clip any RGB inputs on a CRT, but it will be slightly brighter than other 'on spec' consoles.

When I modded my N64 I had almost 1.5V amplitude on the RGB lines,; when I turned contrast down to almost zero on the CRT the image went back to normal without any clipping.
So there is definitely quite a lot of voltage headroom in the analog RGB inputs in CRTs.

The problem starts when the analog voltage is digitized to exact specification,, where in the digital domain there is no headroom outside of spec.
This can bee seen in Framemeister (don't own) and the OSSC (own).
The OSSC TVP7002 chip has pre-digitization Gain control so levels of the 1Chip can be fixed without any modification to the vintage hardware, I do not know about the Framemeister.

@borti4938
Will it be possible to add a Coarse Gain/Offset (page 12, 38) which scales 0.5Vpp-2.0Vpp to the 10bit ADC of the OSSC?
Currently the OSSC has the Fine Gain/Offset controls which are post ADC, while all Coarse parameters are PRE ADC and missing from the OSSC.
I think the Pre (coarse) ADC controls are much more important, than the Post (fine) controls that can be done on the LCD anyway.
It will be really nice not having to mod a stock 1Chip or any other slightly off-spec console with the OSSC once the Pre ADC control are implemented. :wink:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tvp7002.pdf

edit:
I'll post the request for borti in the OSSC thread also.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:20 am 


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Joined: 23 Mar 2018
Posts: 28
As said, the clipping occurs in the digitization stage of the OSSC or Framemeister, NOT in the 1Chip itself.

paul_nl posted a test firmware for the OSSC which has Pre-ADC-Gain control that can accept up to 2.0vPP without clipping.
https://www.videogameperfection.com/for ... -controls/
Furthermore, paul_nl mentioned that the Framemeister also has this option called "ADC Level" so there is no need to modify your vintage fat 1chip console at all in the first place to correct the levels.

If you have a fat 1chip that already has RGB but you've yet to install the 750/1.2k resistors, please try this option.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:53 pm 


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Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 244
James-F wrote:
As said, the clipping occurs in the digitization stage of the OSSC or Framemeister, NOT in the 1Chip itself.

paul_nl posted a test firmware for the OSSC which has Pre-ADC-Gain control that can accept up to 2.0vPP without clipping.
https://www.videogameperfection.com/for ... -controls/
Furthermore, paul_nl mentioned that the Framemeister also has this option called "ADC Level" so there is no need to modify your vintage fat 1chip console at all in the first place to correct the levels.

If you have a fat 1chip that already has RGB but you've yet to install the 750/1.2k resistors, please try this option.

hmm there is no such thing as an "ADC level" setting on the Mini.
http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/XRGB-mini_Ver203_OSD_E.pdf
Is paulb_nl refering to "A/D LEVEL", same thing?
But on my unmodified fat 1CHIP-01 + Mini I do not have the shading becoming solid starting from column C (as on the MLiG RGB309 video @ 8:22), I see distinct columns up to F.
I use default A/D LEVEL setting on the mini and a SHVC-010 RGB cable.
Edit: so now I'm starting to wonder if certain 1CHIPs, maybe the early revisions, do not have this white crush issue at all?


Last edited by TheShadowRunner on Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:04 pm 



Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 68
I just got a 1chip (love it!) and I’m on the cusp of installing the brightness-fixing resistors, so I’m keenly listening to this conversation.

Let me know if there’s actually any accurate correction for the brightness on my Framemeister. I don’t own an OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:50 am 


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Joined: 23 Mar 2018
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Yes "A/D/ Level" is the pre ADC gain adjustment.
No need to mod your vintage 1chip whatsoever.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:38 am 


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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 1887
Location: DFW area, Texas
James-F wrote:
Yes "A/D/ Level" is the pre ADC gain adjustment.
No need to mod your vintage 1chip whatsoever.


I've made videos explaining exactly this in demonstration. The A/D function of the Framemeister allows you to correct any over or under brightness of the console. For example on my Neo Geo AES3-3, the brightness is under spec, and moving the A/D level up using the color bars test pattern from the port of Artemio's Test Suite perfectly corrected the issue.

In the case of the OSSC, you can use the 'gain' settings to do the same thing, and even to the point of perfectly balancing the RGB levels.
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:03 am 


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Joined: 23 Mar 2018
Posts: 28
FBX wrote:
In the case of the OSSC, you can use the 'gain' settings to do the same thing, and even to the point of perfectly balancing the RGB levels.

Not exactly, the OSSC currently in the official v0.80 firmware don't have Pre ADC Gain controls, the Fine Gain in the current firmware are Post ADC and do not fix already clipped signal.
The whole point of using Pre-ADC-Gain control is to fix the hotter 1chip signal WITHOUT modifying the console with 1.2k/750 resistors.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:15 am 


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Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Again, not convinced all 1CHIPs are affected..


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:20 am 


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Most are, that's where you should use the 240p test suite with the grey ramp, and adjust the pre adc gain.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:38 am 


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Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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James-F wrote:
Most are, that's where you should use the 240p test suite with the grey ramp, and adjust the pre adc gain.

Oh it's acknowledged, alright. I thought all 1CHIPs were thought to be affected.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:30 pm 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 291
I've now got four Super Famicoms in my posession. Is this serial-number document still being updated? Because if it is, I'll share.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... utput=html


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:07 pm 


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Joined: 23 Mar 2018
Posts: 28
In FBX signature you'll find the biggest SNES Serial DB.
If your numbers are between others numbers from the DB with the same PCB model, no need to make additions.
If your number is an "edge" number or changes the PCB model, please do.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:27 pm 


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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 1887
Location: DFW area, Texas
SamIAm wrote:
I've now got four Super Famicoms in my posession. Is this serial-number document still being updated? Because if it is, I'll share.



Let me have a look at your numbers, they might be valuable even if not an edge case.
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:01 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 291
FBX wrote:
Let me have a look at your numbers, they might be valuable even if not an edge case.


SM12053538 - SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
S24864095 - SNS-CPU-APU-01
S24697281 - SNS-CPU-APU-01
S20325832 - SNS-CPU-GPM-02

There are also a bunch of 1CHIP systems on yahoo auctions that give the board revision and serial number. I can compile a list of those later, if you like. I recall one interesting case of a number starting with S247 that was a 1CHIP.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:11 am 


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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 1887
Location: DFW area, Texas
SamIAm wrote:
FBX wrote:
Let me have a look at your numbers, they might be valuable even if not an edge case.


SM12053538 - SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
S24864095 - SNS-CPU-APU-01
S24697281 - SNS-CPU-APU-01
S20325832 - SNS-CPU-GPM-02

There are also a bunch of 1CHIP systems on yahoo auctions that give the board revision and serial number. I can compile a list of those later, if you like. I recall one interesting case of a number starting with S247 that was a 1CHIP.


Okay I entered them in. If you feel up to it, try to look for edge cases (i.e. the given board revision lands on the first or last serial of that batch in the spreadsheet) and report those you find to me in PM. Thanks!
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:31 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 291
Sure!

By the way, the link in your sig doesn't seem to work. I wonder if it's just me?

EDIT: Never mind! It's working now. :)


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:16 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 291
From Yahoo auctions, board verified with picture unless otherwise noted:

S24758322 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-?? (picture doesn't show board number completely, but is definitely a 1CHIP)
S2477**** SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01 (seller blocked last four numbers)
S2478**** SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01 (seller blocked last four numbers)
S24785142 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01
S24785532 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01
S248***** SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01 (seller blocked last five numbers)
S24803981 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01
S24837059 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01
S249***** SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01 (seller blocked last five numbers)
S24930849 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01
S24956781 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01
S25016619 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-?? (no board picture, no description)
S25058109 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
S25059856 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
S25077259 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
S25110627 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
S25120041 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
S25124870 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
S25150906 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
S25187826 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-03
S25202122 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-03 (no picture of board, but seller looks knowledgeable)
S25236322 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-03
S25237127 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-03


SM11938794 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
SM11978981 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01 (not verified in picture, but seller has sold multiple 1CHIPs)
SM11984464 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01
SM12036231 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-?? (seller not specific, no picture)
SM12041567 SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02


I'm rather suspicious of a couple of auctions where the seller claims that the SFC is a 1CHIP, yet does not show pictures of the inside of the console. No information is given about the board revisions, either. The one starting with S246 would be the lowest 1CHIP SFC.

S24618767
S24781610


EDIT: I found this while searching the forums. It's an interesting overlap for the 1CHIP-02.
Serial #: S25200413
SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=43689&start=120


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:57 pm 


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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 1887
Location: DFW area, Texas
Entered all but a couple from your list that didn't have enough information. It does resolve the SFC manufacturing process more clearly: APU and 1CHIP-01 were randomly intermingled. However, by the time the 1CHIP-02 line starts, the APU boards vanish. I get the feeling there was a time period where they stopped production until they cleared the plants of APU and -01 consoles, then started fresh with the -02 batch.

The couple of overlaps of the -02 into the -03 line just indicates an on-running transitional period into the -03 line, which of course all they did really was pinch a few pennies by omitting the components for csync.
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:48 pm 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 291
Great! The more data the merrier, as far as I'm concerned.

I recently gambled and lost on one of those APU systems. It's such a shame that those are possibly the single worst of all SFC models in terms of quality. Until I get one more 1CHIP as a backup, it's S25 and up only unless they're practically giving it away.

I wonder what the story is with the SM line?


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:53 pm 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 188
Here are the SM serial numbers I collected when searching for a 1-CHIP Super Famicom on ebay:

SM11976966 1-CHIP-01
SM11977319 1-CHIP-01
SM11977939 1-CHIP-01
SM11982226 1-CHIP-01
SM11987450 1-CHIP-01
SM12036981 1-CHIP-02
SM12041209 1-CHIP-02
SM12070116 1-CHIP-03

I was thinking that the SM line was made in a different factory and it seems to be the case because SM says made in China on the bottom and the S line says made in Japan.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:01 pm 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 291
Made in China, eh? Now we've got to compare them!

Thanks for the numbers. :)


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