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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:24 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
Saw that a Sony KV-25XBR was listed near me, inquired about it only to find out it had been trashed by the owner :( That legit saddens me, and ruins my day :( I would have picked it up, even though I already have one, to save it from the trash and give it a new lease on life. It sucks to see a beautiful RGB monitor like that, especially one so special in North American crt history, get sent to the bin :(


Oh no. :(
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:48 am 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
Oh no. :(


Yep, it blows :(



In other news, I just found a line of Component-capable curved Trinitrons, which is something I've been wanting to catalog for a while, but couldn't find a single model number till now. From what I know there were few of those. I actually grew up playing on one in my teens, but can't remember the model number.

But in the meantime I've found this line : https://www.manualslib.com/manual/91766 ... =41#manual

32XBR48
34XBR48C (this one is a 220v set)
35XBR48
35XBR88
37XBR48M

Looks pretty good! Look at dat 2nd pic :
https://imgur.com/gallery/5IPrGKM

Image




I think there may be another line of curved component-capable sets released in NA(the one we had didn't any the XBR branding), and I'd like to find which one is it.


Last edited by FinalBaton on Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:15 am 



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Anyone own one of the 4:3 Hitachi plasmas, and have an opinion on them?

Even more unlikely: an opinion on them compared to the PDP-V402? Hopefully less bland blacks?

Have a chance to pick up a couple of them and am curious if it'll be worthwhile!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:33 am 


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I think the the Hitachis are XGA instead of VGA. You should be aware of that, depending on the content you want to display.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:30 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
I think the the Hitachis are XGA instead of VGA. You should be aware of that, depending on the content you want to display.


XGA native indeed, but will take in VGA and even 15khz according to the manual!

I'm mostly just hoping it doesn't have the weak blacks that the pdp-v402 suffers from.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:08 pm 


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The blacks are visibly better than on the Pioneers, but you have to deal with the scaling if you input 15 or 31khz.

But all things aside, if they don't cost a fortune, I'd always pick up any 4:3 plasma screen I can find.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:16 pm 


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What should I be looking for in the cheap but serviceable RGB Scart to HDMI converters? Some lag is fine as it would just be for group saturn bomberman messing around mostly.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:52 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
But all things aside, if they don't cost a fortune, I'd always pick up any 4:3 plasma screen I can find.


That's kind of where I was sitting with it. I was going to pick one up, but may be able to swing a deal on multiple which is why I figured I'd ask for some input. If it was just one, I'd have snatched it up and just found out for myself.

Thank you for your thoughts!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:59 am 



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Sony KV-25DXR (KV-25XBR line), with RGB input (still need to make an adapter), and foot powered "remote" pedestal base!

Anybody have any info about this one? Operating manual? Service manual? (I have those for the 25XBR, but not this 25DXR).

Not much on the web but couple posts said things like how this is supposed to be higher-end than the XBR model, might be the first digital set? (which what exactly does "Digital" refer to anyway?). Has a"Home Management Helper" computer datebook that flashes reminders on the television screen for birthdays, appointments, etc (which is probably what the "Digital" refers to). Both the XBR and DXR seem to have "analog and digital (TTL) RGB connections" - which I was worried about this "digital" DXR model NOT being able to take analog RGB (only digital computer-type) which would majorly stink. I'll find out this weekend when I make a RGB cable for it.

Image

Image

Image


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m7cQp7 ... FC6ycC5UUA


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:32 am 


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^^^^^^^^^^^
Nice 8) I didn't knew about this XDR version. Looks to be exact same as KV-25XBR(same tube, same chassis, same circuitry enhancements) but with the added feature you mentionned (that "home manager helper", etc).

If it is the same then it's a dope set (I love my KV-25XBR to bits, I play it every week). It truly is a KILLER rgb crt. giving a PVM-2530 a run for its money. Enjoy!



(btw : pretty cool that you got it with the stand!)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:23 am 



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Haha, those huge Buttons on the stand! I love it! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:45 am 


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First TV designed for alcoholics too wasted to stand or use a remote. 8)
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:57 am 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
Image


I knew that thing must have been very old when I saw that Sony RGB Multi Input, plus the overall look and set up of the connections don't look very modern-like either, this is actually a TV from 1986.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:07 pm 


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Does that IDC RGB header actually work with digital RGBI as well? I know it works with regular analog RGB, but it does say "multi" on it...


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:12 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Does that IDC RGB header actually work with digital RGBI as well? I know it works with regular analog RGB, but it does say "multi" on it...


I can't find the operation manual or service manual for this so who knows. The only tidbit I found was that sentence saying "analog and digital (TTL) RGB connections". I don't have any old 15khz PC systems to test it on, just older consoles with standard analog RGBS.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:56 pm 



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Now that's a cool old monitor! Would be great to see some footage/pictures of it in RGB action.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:27 pm 


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The KV-25XBR's Multi-input doesn't feature an intensity pin, but then again it was sold with an adapter and maybe that did the conversion.

The pinout is here on Nakedarthur's post about "how to make a cable for KV-25XBR" : http://wavebeam.blogspot.com/2017/08/ma ... 4-pin.html

Image

I wonder if the 25DXR is any different. Maybe some of those ground pins are used for something else, there's just so many of 'em, they can't be all necessary



Here is the manual for KV-25XBR, if someone feels like digging in : https://www.manualslib.com/manual/85167 ... =10#manual


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:27 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
The KV-25XBR's Multi-input doesn't feature an intensity pin, but then again it was sold with an adapter and maybe that did the conversion.



As for the DXR, I found this tidbit mentioning that the DXR was the digital capable version of the XBR, which is called the consumer version. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... fR5wKAXNgo

If this holds any weight, then it's probable that this DXR has the same TTL capabilities as the PVM-2030 and 2530. That would mean the pinout is different.

Edit: then again, I can't really find any evidence of this thing being hooked up to any TTL signals, and all pinouts of the PX-34 connector lack any mention of TTL or intensity signals. This link, page 34: https://manualzz.com/doc/1838046/hardware-book-v.1.1

Shows that there is a "mode select" at 21 and a "RGB / Normal" mode select at 33. I don't know what they'd be for, but it could control blanking and overlapping video signals. My PVM has a select bit to superimpose a text signal on top of a composite video feed, like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:11 pm 


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I may have found a more definitive answer : this chap who made cables for his KV-25XBR, mentions that the "mode select" pin is used to select between analog RGB and digital RGB
https://www.inwap.com/inwap/chez/kv25xbr.txt
looks like you were close, vol.2!

Wow so that means even the KV-25XBR supports RGBi ! I had no idea. that's pretty cool, I might try to hack together a cable for using RGBi on mine.
(if I figure out out to do it... would CGA's "intensity" pin go to Sony's "mode select" pin 21? or would it go instead to Sony's "RGB/Normal select" pin 33, with pin 21 being activated another way? or the reverse?)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:48 pm 



Joined: 07 Mar 2016
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Dochartaigh wrote:
Sony KV-25DXR (KV-25XBR line), with RGB input (still need to make an adapter), and foot powered "remote" pedestal base!

Anybody have any info about this one? Operating manual? Service manual? (I have those for the 25XBR, but not this 25DXR).

Not much on the web but couple posts said things like how this is supposed to be higher-end than the XBR model, might be the first digital set? (which what exactly does "Digital" refer to anyway?). Has a"Home Management Helper" computer datebook that flashes reminders on the television screen for birthdays, appointments, etc (which is probably what the "Digital" refers to). Both the XBR and DXR seem to have "analog and digital (TTL) RGB connections" - which I was worried about this "digital" DXR model NOT being able to take analog RGB (only digital computer-type) which would majorly stink. I'll find out this weekend when I make a RGB cable for it.

Image

Image

Image


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m7cQp7 ... FC6ycC5UUA


that stand looks cool with the buttons on the bottom


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
(if I figure out out to do it... would CGA's "intensity" pin go to Sony's "mode select" pin 21? or would it go instead to Sony's "RGB/Normal select" pin 33, with pin 21 being activated another way? or the reverse?)


So, I think that's the rub. There doesn't seem to be an intensity input based on what we have so far. Possible that it's adjusting the voltage expected on RGB to 5V TTL. I've seen many photos of these things hooked up up to 80's sony computers and MSX machines which are all analog RGB, but nothing to a CGA signal. Not sure if the SMC-70 output TTL or not, but I still think it's the most likely answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:53 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
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vol.2 wrote:
FinalBaton wrote:
(if I figure out out to do it... would CGA's "intensity" pin go to Sony's "mode select" pin 21? or would it go instead to Sony's "RGB/Normal select" pin 33, with pin 21 being activated another way? or the reverse?)


So, I think that's the rub. There doesn't seem to be an intensity input based on what we have so far. Possible that it's adjusting the voltage expected on RGB to 5V TTL. I've seen many photos of these things hooked up up to 80's sony computers and MSX machines which are all analog RGB, but nothing to a CGA signal. Not sure if the SMC-70 output TTL or not, but I still think it's the most likely answer.


Vol.2, where have you seen all these pics from? I've been struggling to find anything meaningful online about these (but maybe because I was searching for the DXR not the XBR).

There was actually a special add-on box for these for computer use - Sony PC-701 RGB interface adapter - that might have what you all are ~2000 Win98 machine ;)

I'm going to make a regular RGBS adapter following these directions: http://wavebeam.blogspot.com/2017/08/ma ... 4-pin.html

Should hopefully be able to get it to work. I've built a PVM-2030 cable from scratch, and a Seleco SV300 9-pin just by guessing (randomly) the pins since there was no pin-out available, so I'll be able to get this one working hopefully.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:08 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
I'm going to make a regular RGBS adapter following these directions: http://wavebeam.blogspot.com/2017/08/ma ... 4-pin.html

Should hopefully be able to get it to work. I've built a PVM-2030 cable from scratch, and a Seleco SV300 9-pin just by guessing (randomly) the pins since there was no pin-out available, so I'll be able to get this one working hopefully.

No doubt you'll be able to make that cable, it's real easy. I had never made a cable before and was able to succesfully made that one for my 25XBR


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:09 pm 



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This is my project for the weekend: the first image is from the 25DXR Service Manual – seems to be identical to the 25XBR unless I'm missing something. My beautiful work of art below that is where I'm going to solder in Red, Green, Blue, and Sync BNC's for RGBS, and 2x RCA's for L/R Audio.

Image

Image


Can somebody more well-versed in this check if it's right? Couple of the DIY posts mention about the pin numbers being switched on floppy disk cables, but I'm literally going to ignore how the floppy cable is labeled, and simply look at the back of the TV like the manual says and use those pins (so looking at the back of the TV, top-left is pin 34, bottom right is 1 –– exactly like the diagram says), then just trace back which wire that is on the floppy disk cable itself and I should be good.

To turn Audio on, I just have to twist together (and solder) 34 and 1, right?

What about pin 33 which says "RGB/NORMAL mode select" that wasn't mentioned in the tutorial so I assume I don't have to worry about that?

The manual also says that the R, G, B, Sync + their individual grounds should "use a twisted-pair lead", so that means I should just give those pairs of wires a couple twists (like 4 or 5?) before soldering them in place, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:09 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
Vol.2, where have you seen all these pics from? I've been struggling to find anything meaningful online about these (but maybe because I was searching for the DXR not the XBR).

There was actually a special add-on box for these for computer use - Sony PC-701 RGB interface adapter - that might have what you all are ~2000 Win98 machine ;)

I'm going to make a regular RGBS adapter following these directions: http://wavebeam.blogspot.com/2017/08/ma ... 4-pin.html


You are correct, it was all images of the XBR monitor. I found images in the XBR instructions, and then I found some other material after searching for the cable smk-0001, but not without following links from that and finding people who did projects.
Page 14 you can see what is clearly a Hit-Bit system: https://docs.sony.com/release/KV20XBR.PDF they were all analog RGB (until the 90s when some had add-on boards with a DE15 connector)
I found others who were hooking up amigas and I followed some of them to pictures, but here's where I started... https://www.inwap.com/inwap/chez/kv25xbr.txt


I found two documents which described the "digital" features of the DXR manual as being a keyboard (that it came with) that you can program the monitor to remind you of appointments. good luck finding a new keyboard though. lol. In any case, I would be willing to bet that it's the only difference. Both articles were from 1985 and reviewed multiple new devices with "digital" features, the premise being that some deserve to called "digital" more than others. I remember when that buzzword was a marketing thing, and I think it's all the evidence necessary to say they are otherwise identical, but you be the judge.
Here's the Chicago Tribune with a snippet in 1985: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html


Wondering about the PC-701. Is that possibly the connector specifically for the HB-701 HitBit computer? Like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-HITBIT-HB ... 2834961028
I wonder because, years ago, I stumbled upon a Sony brochure for a PC interface box intended to hook up to the PVM-2030, but I haven't been able to find it again. If you have any idea what I'm talking about, or a link to a brochure or picture of the PC-701, it might help.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:17 pm 


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The Sony PC-701 adapter is intriguing indeed. I see lots of mentions of CGA and EGA around it.

Btw here's a dope tv commercial for the KV-20XBR/25BR 8) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlSUsEmBbM
So '80s it hurts! And it features the stand in action too! 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:45 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
pin numbers being switched on floppy disk cables


This is what floppy IDEs look like, that's all they mean. Just make sure your using a regular flat cable with no twist or you'll f-up the cable.
Image

Quote:
To turn Audio on, I just have to twist together (and solder) 34 and 1, right?

Or get 5V from whatever you have attached.

Quote:
What about pin 33 which says "RGB/NORMAL mode select" that wasn't mentioned in the tutorial so I assume I don't have to worry about that?

I think it's safe to assume that if it worked for all of them, it will work for you. It's probably related to superimposing RGB material on a video signal. There is a section in the manual about how to do it, but it doesn't specifically refer to the connector, just that you should set it up as per the connected equipment states.

Quote:
The manual also says that the R, G, B, Sync + their individual grounds should "use a twisted-pair lead", so that means I should just give those pairs of wires a couple twists (like 4 or 5?) before soldering them in place, right?

Twisted pairs are specific. I doubt it actually needs it, but the idea is reduce interference. It's supposed to cancel out added noise by alternating the magnetic fields created by the wires. It's necessary in LVDS, but probably not crucial here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twisted_pair


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:39 pm 



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I'll respond to the couple above posts when I get a sec, but looking for an answer on the below if anybody knows (going to test these after work so looking for any troubleshooting tips):



Does the Behar Bros Toro AND Garo output proper TTL 5vp-p sync when it's outputting RGBHV/VGA?

Have some video wall 480p CRT monitors which require TTL sync, and they won't show any kind of image through Wii>Garo VGA>CRT, or Dreamcast>Toro VGA>CRT.

BUT hook up a regular PC via VGA to them and they work, or using Wii through the Mayflash YPbPr to VGA converter (with cap swapped) works, Dreamcast with a plain Retrobit VGA cable works as well....so I'm guessing the Garo and Toro aren't outputting proper TTL level VGA like it should be (and with the track record of Behar Bros products I really wouldn't be surprised), so the CRT monitor doesn't think it's getting a signal and thus doesn't display any signal.

I will be trying to run both the Toro and Garo through an Extron RGB 203 Rxi which should raise the sync to TTL level i believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:39 pm 



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Dochartaigh wrote:
I'll respond to the couple above posts when I get a sec, but looking for an answer on the below if anybody knows (going to test these after work so looking for any troubleshooting tips):



Does the Behar Bros Toro AND Garo output proper TTL 5vp-p sync when it's outputting RGBHV/VGA?

Have some video wall 480p CRT monitors which require TTL sync, and they won't show any kind of image through Wii>Garo VGA>CRT, or Dreamcast>Toro VGA>CRT.

BUT hook up a regular PC via VGA to them and they work, or using Wii through the Mayflash YPbPr to VGA converter (with cap swapped) works, Dreamcast with a plain Retrobit VGA cable works as well....so I'm guessing the Garo and Toro aren't outputting proper TTL level VGA like it should be (and with the track record of Behar Bros products I really wouldn't be surprised), so the CRT monitor doesn't think it's getting a signal and thus doesn't display any signal.

I will be trying to run both the Toro and Garo through an Extron RGB 203 Rxi which should raise the sync to TTL level i believe.


just a heads up
using the box the way it's supposed too, converting component to scart to a pvm 20m4u: there's image issues with the wii, pspgo.

i posted my impressions and issues with the new Garo a few posts back.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:27 pm 



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davidwhangchoi wrote:
just a heads up
using the box the way it's supposed too, converting component to scart to a pvm 20m4u: there's image issues with the wii, pspgo.

i posted my impressions and issues with the new Garo a few posts back.


I thought they took the SCART plug out of the newest version of the Garo and it only has VGA? You're using a VGA to SCART adapter cable I assume? I'm using a VGA to RGBHV BNC cable on my PVM/BVM's (but for this test just a straight VGA-to-VGA cable from the Garo to the CRT 480p monitor).

And I'm familiar with the issues. Some are fine, some jacked-up. I have the new version of the Garo with VGA which was jacked up for many people but mine for instance works fine on Wii on a multitude of consumer, PVM, and BVM CRT's so I guess I got lucky. Just trying to see if it outputs proper levels of sync for VGA. I guess I could multimeter it if somebody told me how... (kinda know....just stick the + probe to the inside of one of the sync BNC's, the negative to the outside negative? jacket)


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