shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:25 am View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5327 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 174, 175, 176, 177, 178  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 4:39 pm 



Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 148
H6rdc0re wrote:
I've always been wondering. On most Sony PVM's there's BNC in and out connectors. We can connect to either in or out and get a good picture. What's the danger in using both the in and out connectors simultaneous and effectively giving us two RGB/Component connectors at the same time. I'm asking because the BKM-129X is almost impossible to attain and I don't want to damage my gear.

You should not use the 'out' connectors as an input. You need to put 75 Ohm terminators on the 'out' BNC jacks. Without the terminators the signal will be distorted (probably too bright).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 5:11 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2017
Posts: 84
the Goat wrote:
H6rdc0re wrote:
I've always been wondering. On most Sony PVM's there's BNC in and out connectors. We can connect to either in or out and get a good picture. What's the danger in using both the in and out connectors simultaneous and effectively giving us two RGB/Component connectors at the same time. I'm asking because the BKM-129X is almost impossible to attain and I don't want to damage my gear.

You should not use the 'out' connectors as an input. You need to put 75 Ohm terminators on the 'out' BNC jacks. Without the terminators the signal will be distorted (probably too bright).


That's on the BVM's. Almost all PVM's have 75 Ohm auto termination. I do have terminators on every out just in case.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 5:59 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 1160
Iirc because you need to have a 75 ohm termination. Just get a switch.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:22 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2017
Posts: 84
Einzelherz wrote:
Iirc because you need to have a 75 ohm termination. Just get a switch.


I have two 20L4 PVM's with their own scart switchers but I wanted to put one PVM in storage. Well need to use both of them I guess. Or perhaps pull the trigger on BKM-129X.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:46 pm 



Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 148
H6rdc0re wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
Iirc because you need to have a 75 ohm termination. Just get a switch.


I have two 20L4 PVM's with their own scart switchers but I wanted to put one PVM in storage. Well need to use both of them I guess. Or perhaps pull the trigger on BKM-129X.

Just feed one scart switch into the other then connect that to the pvm.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:59 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 108
I’m trying to set-up an old plasma TV with a native resolution of 1365x768 but have encountered an unexpected issue while driving it with an Extron 301 HD. Whilst the 301 supports this output resolution it refuses to display a centred picture - it is shifted way too far to the right. It’s otherwise pixel perfect. Even when I adjust the H-position to -128 (the maximum the TV allows), it’s still way off.

I managed to find an old thread on the AVS forums with timings from people using DVDO’s, Lumagen and Theatersync video processors to drive the same TV at 1365x768 without problems so I can’t understand what the problem is with the Extron. Any thoughts?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:50 pm 



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 17
Hi,
landing here lookin' for infos about BVMs, I started looking and found a 35k hrs BVM 20F1 with control unit (like the one in the OP) for sale.
What is a fair price for that in Europe TODAY?
There seem to be a lot of urban myth around BVM prices like "dont'pay more than 200 €" and absurd (only to me?) +1000 € on eBay auctions and such...


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11732
Location: Germany
A 20" F1 here in Europe should be available for 250-400 EUR depending on its location and the willingness of the seller to ship the unit. If I check the eBay classifieds over here I see one for 450 EUR which is on the more expensive side, but it's not out of this world as long as the condition is great.

And there's of course a HUGE discrepancy between prices for units sold by actual production studios that just want to get rid of them and any units you see on ebay targeted at retro gamers in particular.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:46 pm 



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 17
Thanks for the clarification.
What I suspect is that even medical clearences and production studios sales are starting to catch the thing about "retro fever" and set prices aimed to retro-lovers... Even on Kitplus and similar websites prices seem to spike.
I'll keep looking. ^^'


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:07 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 3502
Location: Québec City
pedroTFP wrote:
Thanks for the clarification.
What I suspect is that even medical clearences and production studios sales are starting to catch the thing about "retro fever" and set prices aimed to retro-lovers... Even on Kitplus and similar websites prices seem to spike.

Yep. this is definitely starting to happen more and more, seen many instances of it. Not all of them are aware of the crazy demand though, still some deals to be found.

a broadcast-equipment company here recently auctionned 4x PVM-2950 that went for between $400 and $500. No pocket change but considering they go for $1500-$2000 on Ebay, that's still a deal in todays market


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:15 am 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 795
Location: Italy
I'd say broaden your search to include JVC monitors. TM-H monitors are quite nice and much easier to find than BVM's here (especially the 15 inch model). Only composite and s-video inputs unless you get lucky and find one with the RGB/Component board, but s-video is plenty good for low-res stuff. Professional monitors were hyped up in the US for having RGB inputs, but actually their different look vs. a standard (american or european) consumer CRT has mostly to do with the finer pitch and beam size.

Hantarex monitors would be another option. Some of them were used as arcade monitors and look more like a (good-quality) consumer CRT. You can find them for cheap (for example), but be aware that they may require specific cabling (either 'vga' or the arcade connector with the 5-6 pins inline) and sync and video levels.

Edit: oh yeah, if you live in/near Rome, Italy and feel very brave, there's also this monster up for sale now :mrgreen: it's been setting there for months..


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:35 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Jul 2017
Posts: 1219
Location: Eating the Rich
Xer Xian wrote:

Edit: oh yeah, if you live in/near Rome, Italy and feel very brave, there's also this monster up for sale now :mrgreen: it's been setting there for months..


Only 99 euro :o :o :o

As far as the people catching on thing, yeah it's definitely happening. The guy I got my excellent condition pvm from knew why I wanted it because he had a bunch and the 20'' went the same day with people even offering more to try and get those big ones after they were already agreed to be sold. At that point anyone would know they have a hot item.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:54 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 905
You guys seem to be lucky in Europe with demand for these PVM/BVM's seemingly not as high as in the states (especially with BVM-D24's which seem to go for roughly half to one-third what they go for locally).. If I were to sell my BVM-20F1U I know I could get $800 USD (712 Euro) for it like tomorrow. Last couple sold for over a grand on eBay PLUS shipping. Just the controller mount kit just sold the other day for $300 by itself!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:02 am 



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 193
Location: The Netherlands
Lucky for pvm’s going for “just” 300 euros? The point where this all became silly has long passed i see.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:40 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 905
spmbx wrote:
Lucky for pvm’s going for “just” 300 euros? The point where this all became silly has long passed i see.


My two examples were for BVM's which commonly start at two if not three times what PVM's go for (in the USA at least).

Most PVM's brand-new back in the day were under $2K, with the highest end later ones (PVM-20L5) maxing out at around $3500. BVM's on the other hand the sky was really the limit, especially for the big ones (a BVM-D32 for example, 2005 MSRP, was well over $40K with regular input cards and controller). Even the little 9" BVM was $5200. So yes, prices then could certainly be silly as well, and now it's all about supply and demand doing it's thing since demand has outstripped the supply of these old professional CRT's and prices have gone up.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:54 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6629
Location: block
Overhyped on retro gaming forums. I've always found completely normal for people who live where RGB CRTs don't exist to hunt down broadcast monitors, but the hype extended worldwide so the prices went up uniformally, even where we've had (and still have) plenty of consumer RGB CRTs for peanuts.
It was especially about the Sony's with higher TVL count of course, and all the "they re the best nothing compares blah blah", but the sharpest ones (like 800 and up) I've seen definitely look overworldly compared to normal consumer tv's and arcade monitors, unnatural, so I always assumed - at least in regards to RGB-Land gamers - that there was more silly hype than rationality behind all this. Seriously I've seen many disregard perfectly fine consumer crts and throw insane amount of time and money into high-end broadcasts that didn't deserve this much trouble at all...
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:36 am 



Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 66
Dochartaigh wrote:
spmbx wrote:
Lucky for pvm’s going for “just” 300 euros? The point where this all became silly has long passed i see.


My two examples were for BVM's which commonly start at two if not three times what PVM's go for (in the USA at least).

Most PVM's brand-new back in the day were under $2K, with the highest end later ones (PVM-20L5) maxing out at around $3500. BVM's on the other hand the sky was really the limit, especially for the big ones (a BVM-D32 for example, 2005 MSRP, was well over $40K with regular input cards and controller). Even the little 9" BVM was $5200. So yes, prices then could certainly be silly as well, and now it's all about supply and demand doing it's thing since demand has outstripped the supply of these old professional CRT's and prices have gone up.

wow, the 9" was 5200?

Vince Mcmahon let WWF throw those around all the time :shock:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:03 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 795
Location: Italy
I am bored, so here's the reasons for hunting down professional monitors (that everyone here already knows):

- Scanlines. Yes, they weren't meant to be there back in the days, and they've been ridiculously hyped up by the internet ("thick, bacon-sliced, yummy scanlines" - Phonedork™). Still, some can genuinely like them.

- Multisync capability. Not all pro monitors support this, but if they do it's done like it's meant to be done, not by messing with the original resolution like later (mainly american) consumer CRTs did.

- RGB and Component support. Again, not all pro monitors support this, but many do. RGB isn't a big deal in Europe, but component was rarely supported here. Regardless of whether one lives in Europe or America, this is actually a minor point, since it can be circumvented by using transcoders.

- Generally good build quality and more control over geometry, convergence, picture size, etc. One would also assume they used to have a superior calibration than consumer CRTs, but today this is most likely irrelevant since they will have drifted by now. Still, for those who care, it's likely that they can be recalibrated to reach a higher accuracy than most consumer CRT could possibly achieve (if only for the use of industry-standard phosphors).

- Status. Regardless of the weight one gives to the points above, owning a rare and expensive monitor is something people can brag about. Kinda like kids did if they played on a large (consumer) CRT back in the 90's. "The only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys" they say :P


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:27 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6629
Location: block
Well yeah if you're in the "know what you're buying for specific reasons" category then there's nothing to argue about, high-end CRTs are (were) a logical step.

The cases I have in mind are that of all those rather-new-to-retrogaming back then who for a number of years were rushing on anything Sony broadcast like hungry beasts, even in terrible condition and needing extremely tough servicing, just because "me too", and before giving even a single look at all the consumer CRTs around them here in RGB-Land.

It's like games collecting, sharks exist also because tons of naive noobs are ready to throw mountains of cash at anything just to imitate the old boys and give the greedy perfect opportunities. While old boys who either are in the late nitpicking/refinement phase or have bought most of the high-end toys and games already many years ago for much less cash, kinda accidentally motivate that nonsense.

Back then I was saying here consumer euro CRT TVs in good shape would disappear quickly, but to my surprise I've seen them around still for quite a long time. Now they're really getting scarce, so when I think about all those lost opportunities...ugh.
Some smart guys have literally filled a basement or garage with tons picked up for nothing or a handful of euros. I would have done the same if I had more room but I already have more CRTs than it can reasonably fit.
Now I wonder when they will turn to sharks too and sell consumer sets for unholy money... :twisted:
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:47 pm 



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 17
To me, personally, the appeal of PVM\BMV is merely for practical reasons.
I've always liked big screens (25"/29"), but I naively thought that I'd be ok with only 20" because of multiple connections/resolutions available and because it'd be easy to go TATE.

Being a shmup lover (of course) I'm not very happy with Framemeister and TATE 16:9 LCD even if it's a very good setup (anyway thanks to Fudoh and others for helping me choosing my 1080p 27" ASUS last winter, great display overall for what I need) so PVM's square shape looked ideal.

The fact is that in the last 6 months I picked up locally 5 Sony CRTs for no more than 20 € each and they all look great and in good condition with few hours; but their chassis don't look ok for TATE to me (can anybody advise any model in particular?)... and I really can't wrap my head around a +500€ monitor with 15khz compatibility only.

Fun fact:a couple of years ago, being a naive PVM\BVM noobie, I was thinking "well, I'll get a COUPLE of D20F1 for cheap and I'll be good...". ^_^'


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:47 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Jul 2017
Posts: 1219
Location: Eating the Rich
I generally agree with xyga here. I have a super sharp pvm and it does look weird with many games. Found out I really don't prefer it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:35 pm 



Joined: 30 Oct 2018
Posts: 42
Steamflogger Boss wrote:
I generally agree with xyga here. I have a super sharp pvm and it does look weird with many games. Found out I really don't prefer it.


What PVM is that? L5?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:38 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 795
Location: Italy
Xyga wrote:
The cases I have in mind are that of all those rather-new-to-retrogaming back then who for a number of years were rushing on anything Sony broadcast like hungry beasts, even in terrible condition and needing extremely tough servicing, just because "me too", and before giving even a single look at all the consumer CRTs around them here in RGB-Land.

Oh I agree with that, at some point professional monitors got overhyped, and I guess some went after them for no good reason other than misdirected collecting and bragging rights.

Personally, when I got into the hobby I didn't really envision myself ever getting a pro monitor, but at some point I was captivated by the technical/geek side of it and started buying all sorts of gear, CRTs included (this forum is partly to blame :) ). I let this go out of hand though, since it ended up taking so much of my time that I barely kept playing during the process. It's so ironic - I now have a great setup, but spend much less of my freetime playing than when I was stuck with a 14" CRT, two consoles and RF cables.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6629
Location: block
I'm fine with the Sony's that aren't emulator-on-a-pc-crt like tho. In any case personally I got tired of the Trinitron look at some point, probably after going to many IRL events and meets for a number of years (when retrogaming was at its all-time high) where literally truckloads of all possible sorts or used CRTs were brought, and there I've seen flavours of CRT picture that were definitely more natural-looking and engaging than the 'usual' Trinis.
(and no it wasn't 'the same' as going to the arcades since the variety of models was much greater in those events)

Ranting like an old man because I've certainly said the same more than once even in this thread, but the most beautiful CRT I've ever seen was an 80's heavy af, quite curved and not even 20" consumer TV. Sublime. I really hate myself for not grabbing it since it went to the dumpster as I've learned shortly after the event.


@XX: another thing I like about just picking random consumer CRTs is that it's simple (if scart and NTSC-compatible of course) and how it'll look is often a surprise.
For NO-RGB-Land I'd argue the same 'pleasure' can be found in picking random S-Video and Component ones for cheap or free and see how they handle the various machines.

The hunt for a perfect high-end RGB CRT picture can indeed be ridiculously time and money consuming, for results that are maybe part objective, part OCD+metooism.
Flat panels, scalers and filters obesession however is perfectly normal. I'm telling you guys it's okay, it's no nonsense...what, why are you giving me that pity look !? :|
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:15 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 795
Location: Italy
Lol. Indeed, the quest for 'better' can be never-ending; the means of the hobby becoming the hobby itself. I think we still have room for even crazier nonsense OCD - we only need to learn from audiophiles :P


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:25 am 



Joined: 17 Mar 2018
Posts: 48
About two years ago in a forum somewhere I proudly declared that I was done with my CRT collection after getting a D32 to accompany my 20F1E.
Yesterday, I drove 650km in total to pickup an FW900.

I totally agree with Xer Xian that actually playing games has taken a back seat in favor of amassing more and more obsolete display equipment. It has become a hobby in itself. But I really gotta slim down my collection over the next couple of months.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:12 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 465
SuperSpongo wrote:
About two years ago in a forum somewhere I proudly declared that I was done with my CRT collection after getting a D32 to accompany my 20F1E.
Yesterday, I drove 650km in total to pickup an FW900.


Just curious what your would really want from an FW900 that you can't get from a widescreen D-series BVM. I can only think of some PC resolutions that the latter won't take, but then again you can set up your PC to send it a lot of resolutions from 480i to 1080i, or easily throw one or two converters/scalers in your chain to feed to accommodate for unsupported resolutions. Is there anything else?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:31 pm 



Joined: 17 Mar 2018
Posts: 48
I recently went "the other way", meaning instead of downscaling PC resolutions to 480i or 240p as some people do, I was messing around with using the OSSC and an HD Fury to turn PC monitors into multiformat devices. In terms of "tv lines" the high end monitors of the 2000s were even better than the D and A series BVMs, which I found intriguing. Also, PC monitors handle higher resolutions than 1080i and I wanted to compare video experiences such as BluRay.

Lastly, it's a somewhat rare model I got for a good price, so I snatched it up. When I realized I had to drive ~7 hours I had a small moment of regret lol


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:23 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 465
That makes sense, I can definitely see late PC CRTs outperforming the best CRT BVMs in several aspects, especially convergence and linearity.

I think OSSC + OLED P/BVMs (when they get cheaper) is likely to become a new frontier for retro gaming (and stuff like blurays will look better than on any CRT, maybe not DVDs).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:53 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2017
Posts: 84
I have come across 3 brand new never used Sony BVM-A24E1WE. What would be a fair price for these?


Last edited by H6rdc0re on Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5327 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 174, 175, 176, 177, 178  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ChillyLizard, Revolver Ocelot and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group