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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:42 pm 


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1. When using PS3 on a D24/32 is there any advantage to use HDMI over Component? I am specifically referring to the "RGB Full Range (HDMI) and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)" options I am wondering if there is any benefit to these with the D series monitors as they are only available on HDMI.

the HDMI output on the PS3 is considerably sharper than the component output. Unfortunately you're splitting your color resolution in half when using a HDMI to HD-SDI converter. So your best option - qualitywise - is actually to use the HDMI output, but to convert to YUV or RGBs/RGsB on your own. In other words: you're using the right input on the monitor, but the wrong output on the console.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:33 pm 



Joined: 30 Jul 2017
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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
1. When using PS3 on a D24/32 is there any advantage to use HDMI over Component? I am specifically referring to the "RGB Full Range (HDMI) and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)" options I am wondering if there is any benefit to these with the D series monitors as they are only available on HDMI.

the HDMI output on the PS3 is considerably sharper than the component output. Unfortunately you're splitting your color resolution in half when using a HDMI to HD-SDI converter. So your best option - qualitywise - is actually to use the HDMI output, but to convert to YUV or RGBs/RGsB on your own. In other words: you're using the right input on the monitor, but the wrong output on the console.


Thanks Fudoh for the reply. But why is the HDMI output sharper than the component output? I thought they were "basically" the same if both outputting 720p.

I didn't know using a HDMI to HD-SDI converter cuts the colour resolution in half either. Wouldn't using the HDMI ouput and converting it to YUV or RGB produce the same result as just outputting straight YPbPr through Component?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:34 pm 


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Sefirosu789 wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
1. When using PS3 on a D24/32 is there any advantage to use HDMI over Component? I am specifically referring to the "RGB Full Range (HDMI) and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)" options I am wondering if there is any benefit to these with the D series monitors as they are only available on HDMI.

the HDMI output on the PS3 is considerably sharper than the component output. Unfortunately you're splitting your color resolution in half when using a HDMI to HD-SDI converter. So your best option - qualitywise - is actually to use the HDMI output, but to convert to YUV or RGBs/RGsB on your own. In other words: you're using the right input on the monitor, but the wrong output on the console.


Thanks Fudoh for the reply. But why is the HDMI output sharper than the component output? I thought they were "basically" the same if both outputting 720p.

I didn't know using a HDMI to HD-SDI converter cuts the colour resolution in half either. Wouldn't using the HDMI ouput and converting it to YUV or RGB produce the same result as just outputting straight YPbPr through Component?


I believe it's just a PS3 thing- normally that would be true, but the PS3's DAC is low quality, or there's something else that's affecting the analog output.


Last edited by bobrocks95 on Tue May 01, 2018 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:32 am 



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I read somewhere (I think it was Fudoh) saying that non-launch PS3s have worse component output as a form of copy protection. Since there is no HDCP through YPbPr, the resolution is downsized when playing through YPbPr to discourage lossless copying/rips of movies.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:58 am 


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GeneraLight wrote:
I read somewhere (I think it was Fudoh) saying that non-launch PS3s have worse component output as a form of copy protection. Since there is no HDCP through YPbPr, the resolution is downsized when playing through YPbPr to discourage lossless copying/rips of movies.

Is that only for media playback, or for gaming too?
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:08 am 


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to clarify: yes, that's absolutely a PS3-only problem. The XBox360 in comparison has fantastic analogue quality.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 7:32 pm 



Joined: 30 Jul 2017
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Fudoh wrote:
the HDMI output on the PS3 is considerably sharper than the component output. Unfortunately you're splitting your color resolution in half when using a HDMI to HD-SDI converter. So your best option - qualitywise - is actually to use the HDMI output, but to convert to YUV or RGBs/RGsB on your own. In other words: you're using the right input on the monitor, but the wrong output on the console.



GeneraLight wrote:
I read somewhere (I think it was Fudoh) saying that non-launch PS3s have worse component output as a form of copy protection. Since there is no HDCP through YPbPr, the resolution is downsized when playing through YPbPr to discourage lossless copying/rips of movies.


Are you guys sure about this?

I've been researching and it seems that the only difference between using HDMI + Component YPbPr on PS3 is:

a) HDMI upscales DVDs well so is sharper (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rOmpbmT2HI)
b) Only HDMI can use 1080p in later model PS3s (My monitor only accepts up to 1080i so this doesn't matter for me) (http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessori ... e-ps3.html)

However, I did find this - "Without HDMI:

-You lose the ability to upscale DVDs.

-You lose all-around picture clarity and color range/depth.

-Depending on your audio gear, you stand to lose some nice audio formats.

-Depending on your display, you stand to lose some additional video functions." (here). I assume if I convert the HDMI to Component YUV I won't loose this advantages? I just want to make sure as converting it for no reason is pointless.

edit: as for HDSDI + HDMI conversion quality loss... "The quality of the converter may make a difference, but there is no technical reason that you couldn't have a flawless conversion between formats. Both support both YCbCr 4:2:2 and 4:4:4, so the color spaces should be compatible either way".


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:50 pm 


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Quote:
Both support both YCbCr 4:2:2 and 4:4:4

there are various SDI standards. The inputs on the Sonys HDSDI board are 4:2:2 only (following the HD-SDI standard). The upgrade to that one (SDI 3G) added 4:4:4 but only up to 1080i60/p24. Even there 1080p60 is only supported in 4:2:2 (e.g. on my OLED PVM).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 9:43 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Both support both YCbCr 4:2:2 and 4:4:4

there are various SDI standards. The inputs on the Sonys HDSDI board are 4:2:2 only (following the HD-SDI standard). The upgrade to that one (SDI 3G) added 4:4:4 but only up to 1080i60/p24. Even there 1080p60 is only supported in 4:2:2 (e.g. on my OLED PVM).

So not even the F24 has 4:4:4 support on everything? That sucks. What about the FW900?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 10:16 pm 



Joined: 30 Jul 2017
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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Both support both YCbCr 4:2:2 and 4:4:4

there are various SDI standards. The inputs on the Sonys HDSDI board are 4:2:2 only (following the HD-SDI standard). The upgrade to that one (SDI 3G) added 4:4:4 but only up to 1080i60/p24. Even there 1080p60 is only supported in 4:2:2 (e.g. on my OLED PVM).


But if using component or hdmi output converted to component it will be 4:4:4, right?

Outside of 1080p, I still don't see the advantage to using hdmi instead of component for PS3 blu-ray movies though. Unless if does actually keep HDMI's loosely defined "all-around better picture clarity and color range/depth" when converted to component.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:49 am 


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Quote:
What about the FW900?

how do you get a digital signal into the FW900 ?

Quote:
But if using component or hdmi output converted to component it will be 4:4:4, right?

of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 2:04 pm 


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I used an HDFury2 on my FW900 to get PS4/Wii U etc when I had one. The FW900 has the best picture that I have ever seen.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 11:44 am 



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 35
Does the F24 accept 240p? I've really searched but I can't find anyone who has one and uses it for games. Just lots of white whale posts and speculation on it not even taking 240p.

Any owners here that would be willing to share their thoughts? Stories? Anything is welcome.

I have a possible line on one. I've had nervous energy since hearing from the guy. I'd be in way over my head but I think I'd be a fool to not do everything I can to make it happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:02 pm 


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Finding the answer to your question is as easy as typing 'bvm f24' on google, press 'I'm feeling lucky', and look for the available signal formats on the brochure.

Hint: it's the absolute best BVM for HD sources and the absolute worst for SD ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:47 pm 



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
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Xer Xian wrote:
Finding the answer to your question is as easy as typing 'bvm f24' on google, press 'I'm feeling lucky', and look for the available signal formats on the brochure.

Hint: it's the absolute best BVM for HD sources and the absolute worst for SD ones.


I read it. 240p is never mentioned in these brochures but the exclusion of 480i is what I assume leads people to saying it probably won't accept lower formats. My question if is anyone has actually tried and confirmed it. I can't seem to find any actual owners of this model.

If it won't take them at all it lessons my excitement a bit but I think I'll still try for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 2:09 pm 


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If the specs say that signals from 54 to 91khz are accepted, what's there to wonder ?

I would almost see it as more critical that 480p (31khz) aren't accepted either.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 11:57 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
If the specs say that signals from 54 to 91khz are accepted, what's there to wonder ?

I would almost see it as more critical that 480p (31khz) aren't accepted either.


Exactly the kind of details I am wondering about. Will it accept any of the lower resolutions. If the owner has figured out a work around. Details on how they ultimately use the display as it applies to video games. Things that will influence my purchase.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:10 am 


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What's speaking for the F24 if you can get a more versatile FW900 ?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:35 am 



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Gara wrote:
Exactly the kind of details I am wondering about. Will it accept any of the lower resolutions. If the owner has figured out a work around. Details on how they ultimately use the display as it applies to video games. Things that will influence my purchase.

The lowest supported resolution by the F24 is 45khz (720p60). So it's good for the Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One, PS3, Wii U, Switch, PC and retro consoles upscaled with something like an OSSC. It's also amazing for watching films on Bluray.

Fudoh wrote:
What's speaking for the F24 if you can get a more versatile FW900 ?

Some people may not want the 16:10 aspect ratio of the GDM-FW900. FW900s are notorious for their high failure rate as well, so longevity and stability too.

The FW900 can do lower resolutions though (480p) and much higher ones (1600p) than the F24, is much much much cheaper and infinitely easier to find.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:15 am 



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
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Fudoh wrote:
What's speaking for the F24 if you can get a more versatile FW900 ?


Availability. I'd certainly buy a FW900 if I could find one. A f24 has come out of the blue. I'm trying to decide if it's worth pursuing seriously.

So far I can't find a single person using one for gaming. If someone out there has one I figured this would be the kind of place they hang out.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:33 pm 



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Gara wrote:
Availability. I'd certainly buy a FW900 if I could find one. A f24 has come out of the blue. I'm trying to decide if it's worth pursuing seriously.

So far I can't find a single person using one for gaming. If someone out there has one I figured this would be the kind of place they hang out.

FW900s are far easier to find than F24s, and FW900s are considered to be pretty rare. FW900s are also a fraction of the price of an F24 as well. In fact, a guy on reddit was selling a whole bunch of them in Ohio last week. Just type in "FW900" on Google. You'll find a lot of owners talking about their FW900 on here, /crtgaming/, AVSForums, etc. and lots of videos for it on YouTube. Yet typing in "BVM F24" on Google yields nothing but specs and brochures of it on Sony's website and other manual archiving sites. No video, no owners, just a few people on /crtgaming/ and here talking about it.

Also, where did you find the F24? I've only seen one for sale and that was on Yahoo Auctions of Japan.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:45 pm 



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Gara wrote:
So far I can't find a single person using one for gaming. If someone out there has one I figured this would be the kind of place they hang out.


Try the Facebook group "The CRT Collective" and "Sony PVM/BVM - Users of Sony Professional & Broadcast CRT Monitors" I believe a couple people at one of those has that monitor (or at least is familiar with it).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:33 pm 


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If you have an opportunity to get one for a good price you could pair it with an OSSC. Without doing that I'd consider it a pretty bad choice for gaming, unless you *really* like CRT motion handling. I'd rather invest the money in a nice big OLED personally.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:01 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
Gara wrote:
So far I can't find a single person using one for gaming. If someone out there has one I figured this would be the kind of place they hang out.


Try the Facebook group "The CRT Collective" and "Sony PVM/BVM - Users of Sony Professional & Broadcast CRT Monitors" I believe a couple people at one of those has that monitor (or at least is familiar with it).


I used a FW900 for a while for some games. It's alright. I gave it away.

Those facebook groups are great places to get pictures of Sonic 2, stupid posts of "I found an old CRT on the side of the street!! They're coming back!!!" and very little content.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:38 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
to clarify: yes, that's absolutely a PS3-only problem. The XBox360 in comparison has fantastic analogue quality.


What about Wii U?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 11:22 pm 



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Lawfer wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
to clarify: yes, that's absolutely a PS3-only problem. The XBox360 in comparison has fantastic analogue quality.


What about Wii U?

The Wii U has great YPbPr output, but is locked to Limited Range RGB (16-235) through HDMI.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 8:33 am 



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
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bobrocks95 wrote:
If you have an opportunity to get one for a good price you could pair it with an OSSC. Without doing that I'd consider it a pretty bad choice for gaming, unless you *really* like CRT motion handling. I'd rather invest the money in a nice big OLED personally.


Hum... Alrighty. Thank you. I haven't gotten a price out of them yet but hopefully if they want something reasonable I'll grab it. From what I can tell it's been sitting somewhere collecting dust after a family member stored it away then passed away. I'm betting they either want an outrageously large or small amount of money. I'm hoping for small.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:37 pm 



Joined: 14 May 2018
Posts: 1
Hey man, I just recently got a PVM 14N1U and I have some questions:

I found a loose board inside. It connects to the CN052 slot on the board A. After looking at the service manual, this board supply RGB signal to the (R/G/B/BLK OSD SW) IC which then feeds the decoder.
Another page shows the CN052 and the words "NO CONNECTION".
Do any of you have any clue on what this board does? The only thing that I noticed is that when plugged, the OSD is white, and when unplugged, it is cyan.

Since this board has analog RGB inputs (judging from the ANA-R/G/B on the back of the board), could it be that I can throw some connectors and use RGB signal?

Board Front: https://i.imgur.com/MCfg4b6g.jpg
Board Back: https://i.imgur.com/hrTAHXa.png
CN052 Slot: https://i.imgur.com/IpPMIs5.png
BLK OSD SW: https://i.imgur.com/frHcaGpg.png
No Connection: https://i.imgur.com/TQyNR2R.png


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:04 pm 


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Location: Sao Paulo BR
I already have many CRTs (PVMs, BVMs and also couple JVCs and Ikegamis up to 20 inches) which I've collected for the last 5 years.
As a retrogamer just can't have enough CRTs :mrgreen: I am considering buying a 34" Trinitron TV (late 90s) which goes for a much lower price then a large pro CRT, which are basically non-existent here in Brazil. A simple 14" PVM goes for U$200 - U$300 and a 20" PVM goes for U$500 U$600 IF you can find one.
Anyone (still) uses a 34" CRT beast for gaming? Do they all have geometry issues or something?
How does the image compares to pro monitors of the same era (late 90s)?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:42 pm 


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