Fudoh's ode to old display technology

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Fudoh
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Fudoh »

tri-sync have thinner scanlines on 15kHz content, than straight 15kHz-only monitor do.
should be the other way around. The VGA-capable tubes in the Sega Net City / Naomi cabs had very strong scanlines with 15khz content - to a point where it became uncomfortable to play 2D shoot'em ups from your usual viewing distance of just 40-50cm.
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Xer Xian
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Xer Xian »

FinalBaton wrote:After a few more days of playing, I can confirm that this is the most fun crt I've ever owned (not that I've owned a ton : a PVM-2030, PVM-1354Q, NEC XM37 Plus, some late consumer Sony, and this one, the KV-25XBR).

PVM-2030 had sightly less rich colours. The PVM-1354Q, at 600 TVL on a tiny 13", had those laser-beam like scanlines, and I find that I don't like that as much (at least it had FAT scanlines, those I like better in that context than thin ones. Looks better on the NES' small sprites). The NEC was pretty damn awesome but the scanlines were very thin. Also the colors on it were very vibrant when I was running it at 93K, but I was losing accuracy on warmer hues that are not saturated, and at 65K it was too yellow-ish. PVM-1354Q and NEC monitors were still awesome though.

The KV-25XBR just looks so sexy, colors are rich and I basically see a solid picture, blanked lines barely visible. Yet it still looks crisp and vibrant. Streets of Rage 1 looks bonkers on that set, I swear. Pure eyegasm

This is all my personal opinion of course. I love the variety of tubes that's out there, and I want to keep discovering more. I love the old arcade in-line shadowmask tubes as well, and I want to see more shadowmask tubes.
Quoted because it got buried due to new page.

@Svensonson: That looks nice. Scanlines do not seem too thick to me, it can certainly get 'worse' than that. I don't think the chassis per se has an effect on scanlines, but I'm no expert. (Edit: Now I wonder if by 'scanlines' you didn't mean blanking scanlines/unscanned phosphors but actually lit phosphors rows. Damn this impractical terminology)


@MKL: Thank you for your reply. I always read your posts with a real interest. It's been some time since I last fired up that Mivar, but I'm quite sure it had an aperture grille. I'll try to hook it up tomorrow for a double check and take a pic to share here. Regarding this:
MKL wrote:I don't understand the "jailbar-like phosphors grid" as all shadow mask tubes have phosphors arranged in continuous vertical stripes since the introduction of in-line gun tubes in the early 1970s. Only monitor tubes ("M tubes") have a dot phosphors pattern.
Sorry, trying to cut down on words ended up in an incorrect statement. I meant that the vertical wires of the aperture grille were too thick/too few and that created a very distinct jailbar-like effect.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Dochartaigh »

svensonson wrote: Picture taken from a barco tri-sync 33" Monitor
never saw any bigger scanlines anywhere else imo :D
Are there scanlines in that picture? (lol) Now if we talk about a 32" PVM (probably technically a 34" diagonal tube) you can REALLY see some scanlines...

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FinalBaton
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

Ah, my bad! I thought tri-sync monitors had very thin scanlines (AKA big blanked lines) on 15kHz content. At least that's how the NEC XM37 Plus behaves

Anyway, the main point was that tri-sync display 15kHz different than a 15kHz-only tube would
Last edited by FinalBaton on Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Einzelherz
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Einzelherz »

I would love to see scanlines be used properly one day. That's unlikely. Just as unlikely that magazine will be used properly (as opposed to clip). A man can dream.
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Fudoh
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Fudoh »

thought tri-sync monitors had very thin scanlines (AKA big blanked lines) on 15kHz content
we are on the same point. Technically you're right when you describe the active pixels by calling them scanlines. I use the term to describe the blank space in between lines. Not because it's more correct, but it's like people understand the term :mrgreen:
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Xer Xian »

The chassis being tri-sync or multi-sync isn't what makes scanlines further apart than on a 15kHz only monitor - it's the consequently finer pitch and smaller beam size needed to properly resolve more lines instead.

Edit: Yeah, I was wrong regarding that Mivar TV, not an aperture grille.. pic1 pic2 It looks very similar to my LG F900B which has a slotted shadow mask. Thanks for correcting me MKL.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

Fudoh wrote:we are on the same point. Technically you're right when you describe the active pixels by calling them scanlines. I use the term to describe the blank space in between lines. Not because it's more correct, but it's like people understand the term :mrgreen:
Yeah, I know what you mean!
I had a hunch that we were actually talking about the same thing :wink:
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FinalBaton
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

One last pic, to show the phosphor structure real well :

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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Xyga »

It looks bizarre on that pic actually, unlike the usual Trinitron aperture grille. Like the phosphors are slightly shifted?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

I have seen another Trinitron from that era("Micro black Trinitron") that was like this. Phosphors appear like slightly diagonal lines seen from a bit further away. IDK
Picture is super crisp either way, I can't see anything wrong from a viewing distance
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Xyga »

Interesting. Vaguely rings a bell but...
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by elvis »

Einzelherz wrote:I would love to see scanlines be used properly one day. That's unlikely. Just as unlikely that magazine will be used properly (as opposed to clip). A man can dream.
Always one of those tricky things where the folks who already get it already get it, and you just come off as a dick trying to explain it to people who don't. See the "Color temperature for games and consoles: 6500K or 9300K?" thread as a great example of where the conversation turned sour because of exactly that.

I generally just let it slide in general conversation. If I know the person I'm talking to is technical enough, a single sentence explanation generally sets them right.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by maxtherabbit »

I recently got interested in retro gaming again, signed up here and started reading here and elsewhere. I was initially confused about everyone saying "scanline generators." I was like "the image is already made of scanlines, how are you generating them by adding blank lines??" but then I figured out people were using it to refer to blank lines now...
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by jd213 »

I think I saw a discussion similar to this years ago, but can't find it now: The buttons on my 20L5 have recently become pretty dim (pretty sure it was a sudden change), but I kinda prefer them this way, since I can just leave them on all the time without being distracted by them, and I mostly play at night anyway.

But should I worry about them completely burning out? If so, has anyone designed stickers or something? Don't really want to open up my PVM just to make the buttons light up again.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Einzelherz »

I may be mistaken but I thought I had once found a multi position brightness setting for the buttons on my 14L5. I usually just have them off unless I'm actually tinkering.


and re: scanlines v. blanklines it's just one of those things that makes me cringe slightly, but I'm working on it.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by GojiFan90 »

Were non-flat, widescreen CRTs ever a thing in the United States? I know they exist, but I have never seen one in person in all my years.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

GojiFan90 wrote:Were non-flat, widescreen CRTs ever a thing in the United States? I know they exist, but I have never seen one in person in all my years.
Shit, I've never seen one and I've had CRTs of all types come and go.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Syntax »

Really?? Bang n Olfsen made a few.
They have some really obscure zoom settings too.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by maxtherabbit »

are there any other EDTV plasmas around that are comparable with the Pioneer mentioned in the OP regarding 240p processing and quality?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

maxtherabbit wrote:are there any other EDTV plasmas around that are comparable with the Pioneer mentioned in the OP regarding 240p processing and quality?
I've had two US Panasonic professional EDTV displays and neither handled 240p correctly. The consumer versions of them might though? (Models I had/have are TH-42PWD5 and TH-42PWD8UK)
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by elvis »

GojiFan90 wrote:Were non-flat, widescreen CRTs ever a thing in the United States? I know they exist, but I have never seen one in person in all my years.
I can't speak for the US, but plenty existed in Australia (I've got 2 in my shed). We got a mix of stuff made in Europe, Japan and Taiwan.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by MKL »

Non flat widescreen surely wasn't a long lived format anywhere. Sony made very few models for the European market like the KV-32WF1D or the KV-32WS3D (also available in the 28" size) before switching to real flat. I don't know the US market well enough but I wouldn't be surprised if Sony never used non-flat W66 and W76 tubes over there. A US model I know of is the RCA F38310:

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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Saturngamer81 »

I have owned 5 BVM's through the course of a few years: a obsession that occupied me for a while. DAMN HYPE. :roll:

let me ask.
why is it that considering they all have similar hours, that my 2x A20f1m's (900tvl) have pretty much the same sharpness, uniform image and picture quality of D24 (1000tvl), compared to my 20f1e (which is also 900tvl). I mean apart from the annoying sync issues with my Neo geo mvs on the 68x card, i prefer it over the d24. I'm guessing that it could be age of components etc, the A-series is the youngest and last of the BVM crt's. But seriously I thought that they were 1000tvl at first untill I looked it up.

I have sold my 20f since i dont use it, to me it looked more similar to my 20g (800tvl) which i might sell soon. But yeah the a20's picture is amazing and the only thing it fails to compare with the d24 is geometry and of course better sync compatibility. I haven't seen a d20 yet so I cant compare with that yet.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by elvis »

Saturngamer81 wrote:I'm guessing that it could be age of components etc
Environmental factors over the life of the unit are the big issue.

I work for a broadcast/VFX company. Back in the day, these things copped all sorts of abuse. Dragged out on site to places like African deserts that were hot and dusty, or put out on site in temporary office buildings running off terribly dirty generator power that spiked and dropped all over the place, well out of spec.

While the initial quality of a system was set per make and model, some of these units were treated badly during their lives, and needed a lot more maintenance than the units that sat in a comfortable air-conditioned office for their whole lives, even if the latter had more hours powered on.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Einzelherz »

Not to mention that every object ever made has a tolerance. This shows up more in analog type instruments as well.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Acer »

quick query regarding a BVM 20F1E - i know there is a ton of expertise here!

when powered on (without video source) i get faint diagonal inference moving down the screen (RGB). When a source is applied, the interference freezes, leaving some very faint diagonal lines (which can only be seen when displaying black). None of it can be seen during gameplay and the image quality is fantastic; tried two differnet scart to bnc adaptors and unused bvc ports are plugged with 75ohm terminators on the RGB card) Any ideas?

thanks in advance
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Sefirosu789 »

I have a couple of questions, hopefully someone more knowledgeable answer.

1. When using PS3 on a D24/32 is there any advantage to use HDMI over Component? I am specifically referring to the "RGB Full Range (HDMI) and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)" options I am wondering if there is any benefit to these with the D series monitors as they are only available on HDMI.

2. I remember reading that it is actually possible for the D24/32 to run the PS3 at "1080p 24 Hz" in some cases, anyone know about this?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Fudoh »

1. When using PS3 on a D24/32 is there any advantage to use HDMI over Component? I am specifically referring to the "RGB Full Range (HDMI) and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)" options I am wondering if there is any benefit to these with the D series monitors as they are only available on HDMI.
the HDMI output on the PS3 is considerably sharper than the component output. Unfortunately you're splitting your color resolution in half when using a HDMI to HD-SDI converter. So your best option - qualitywise - is actually to use the HDMI output, but to convert to YUV or RGBs/RGsB on your own. In other words: you're using the right input on the monitor, but the wrong output on the console.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Sefirosu789 »

Fudoh wrote:
1. When using PS3 on a D24/32 is there any advantage to use HDMI over Component? I am specifically referring to the "RGB Full Range (HDMI) and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)" options I am wondering if there is any benefit to these with the D series monitors as they are only available on HDMI.
the HDMI output on the PS3 is considerably sharper than the component output. Unfortunately you're splitting your color resolution in half when using a HDMI to HD-SDI converter. So your best option - qualitywise - is actually to use the HDMI output, but to convert to YUV or RGBs/RGsB on your own. In other words: you're using the right input on the monitor, but the wrong output on the console.
Thanks Fudoh for the reply. But why is the HDMI output sharper than the component output? I thought they were "basically" the same if both outputting 720p.

I didn't know using a HDMI to HD-SDI converter cuts the colour resolution in half either. Wouldn't using the HDMI ouput and converting it to YUV or RGB produce the same result as just outputting straight YPbPr through Component?
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