shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Mon May 21, 2018 10:18 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5044 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:23 pm 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 137
Location: germany
FinalBaton wrote:
Xer Xian wrote:
Picture quality has many facets, but you probably already know you can get a good idea of what sort of look you should expect from a CRT basing on its mask type and pitch size (and of course screen size if distance from the TV is fixed).

I think that it being dual-sync or tri-sync also affects the look. tri-sync have thinner scanlines on 15kHz content, than straight 15kHz-only monitor do.


Picture taken from a barco tri-sync 33" Monitor
never saw any bigger scanlines anywhere else imo :D

Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:36 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11051
Location: Germany
Quote:
tri-sync have thinner scanlines on 15kHz content, than straight 15kHz-only monitor do.

should be the other way around. The VGA-capable tubes in the Sega Net City / Naomi cabs had very strong scanlines with 15khz content - to a point where it became uncomfortable to play 2D shoot'em ups from your usual viewing distance of just 40-50cm.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:45 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 639
Location: Italy
FinalBaton wrote:
After a few more days of playing, I can confirm that this is the most fun crt I've ever owned (not that I've owned a ton : a PVM-2030, PVM-1354Q, NEC XM37 Plus, some late consumer Sony, and this one, the KV-25XBR).

PVM-2030 had sightly less rich colours. The PVM-1354Q, at 600 TVL on a tiny 13", had those laser-beam like scanlines, and I find that I don't like that as much (at least it had FAT scanlines, those I like better in that context than thin ones. Looks better on the NES' small sprites). The NEC was pretty damn awesome but the scanlines were very thin. Also the colors on it were very vibrant when I was running it at 93K, but I was losing accuracy on warmer hues that are not saturated, and at 65K it was too yellow-ish. PVM-1354Q and NEC monitors were still awesome though.

The KV-25XBR just looks so sexy, colors are rich and I basically see a solid picture, blanked lines barely visible. Yet it still looks crisp and vibrant. Streets of Rage 1 looks bonkers on that set, I swear. Pure eyegasm

This is all my personal opinion of course. I love the variety of tubes that's out there, and I want to keep discovering more. I love the old arcade in-line shadowmask tubes as well, and I want to see more shadowmask tubes.

Quoted because it got buried due to new page.

@Svensonson: That looks nice. Scanlines do not seem too thick to me, it can certainly get 'worse' than that. I don't think the chassis per se has an effect on scanlines, but I'm no expert. (Edit: Now I wonder if by 'scanlines' you didn't mean blanking scanlines/unscanned phosphors but actually lit phosphors rows. Damn this impractical terminology)


@MKL: Thank you for your reply. I always read your posts with a real interest. It's been some time since I last fired up that Mivar, but I'm quite sure it had an aperture grille. I'll try to hook it up tomorrow for a double check and take a pic to share here. Regarding this:
MKL wrote:
I don't understand the "jailbar-like phosphors grid" as all shadow mask tubes have phosphors arranged in continuous vertical stripes since the introduction of in-line gun tubes in the early 1970s. Only monitor tubes ("M tubes") have a dot phosphors pattern.

Sorry, trying to cut down on words ended up in an incorrect statement. I meant that the vertical wires of the aperture grille were too thick/too few and that created a very distinct jailbar-like effect.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:55 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 463
svensonson wrote:
Picture taken from a barco tri-sync 33" Monitor
never saw any bigger scanlines anywhere else imo :D


Are there scanlines in that picture? (lol) Now if we talk about a 32" PVM (probably technically a 34" diagonal tube) you can REALLY see some scanlines...

Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:02 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 2780
Location: Québec City
Ah, my bad! I thought tri-sync monitors had very thin scanlines (AKA big blanked lines) on 15kHz content. At least that's how the NEC XM37 Plus behaves

Anyway, the main point was that tri-sync display 15kHz different than a 15kHz-only tube would


Last edited by FinalBaton on Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:14 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 1093
I would love to see scanlines be used properly one day. That's unlikely. Just as unlikely that magazine will be used properly (as opposed to clip). A man can dream.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:01 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11051
Location: Germany
Quote:
thought tri-sync monitors had very thin scanlines (AKA big blanked lines) on 15kHz content

we are on the same point. Technically you're right when you describe the active pixels by calling them scanlines. I use the term to describe the blank space in between lines. Not because it's more correct, but it's like people understand the term :mrgreen:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:21 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 639
Location: Italy
The chassis being tri-sync or multi-sync isn't what makes scanlines further apart than on a 15kHz only monitor - it's the consequently finer pitch and smaller beam size needed to properly resolve more lines instead.

Edit: Yeah, I was wrong regarding that Mivar TV, not an aperture grille.. pic1 pic2 It looks very similar to my LG F900B which has a slotted shadow mask. Thanks for correcting me MKL.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:37 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 2780
Location: Québec City
Fudoh wrote:
we are on the same point. Technically you're right when you describe the active pixels by calling them scanlines. I use the term to describe the blank space in between lines. Not because it's more correct, but it's like people understand the term :mrgreen:

Yeah, I know what you mean!
I had a hunch that we were actually talking about the same thing :wink:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:02 am 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 2780
Location: Québec City
One last pic, to show the phosphor structure real well :

Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:05 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 5977
Location: in Cee's head
It looks bizarre on that pic actually, unlike the usual Trinitron aperture grille. Like the phosphors are slightly shifted?
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:22 am 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 2780
Location: Québec City
I have seen another Trinitron from that era("Micro black Trinitron") that was like this. Phosphors appear like slightly diagonal lines seen from a bit further away. IDK
Picture is super crisp either way, I can't see anything wrong from a viewing distance


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:52 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 5977
Location: in Cee's head
Interesting. Vaguely rings a bell but...
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:48 am 


User avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 973
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Einzelherz wrote:
I would love to see scanlines be used properly one day. That's unlikely. Just as unlikely that magazine will be used properly (as opposed to clip). A man can dream.

Always one of those tricky things where the folks who already get it already get it, and you just come off as a dick trying to explain it to people who don't. See the "Color temperature for games and consoles: 6500K or 9300K?" thread as a great example of where the conversation turned sour because of exactly that.

I generally just let it slide in general conversation. If I know the person I'm talking to is technical enough, a single sentence explanation generally sets them right.
_________________
https://stickfreaks.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:34 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 84
I recently got interested in retro gaming again, signed up here and started reading here and elsewhere. I was initially confused about everyone saying "scanline generators." I was like "the image is already made of scanlines, how are you generating them by adding blank lines??" but then I figured out people were using it to refer to blank lines now...


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:44 am 



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 25
I think I saw a discussion similar to this years ago, but can't find it now: The buttons on my 20L5 have recently become pretty dim (pretty sure it was a sudden change), but I kinda prefer them this way, since I can just leave them on all the time without being distracted by them, and I mostly play at night anyway.

But should I worry about them completely burning out? If so, has anyone designed stickers or something? Don't really want to open up my PVM just to make the buttons light up again.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:51 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 1093
I may be mistaken but I thought I had once found a multi position brightness setting for the buttons on my 14L5. I usually just have them off unless I'm actually tinkering.


and re: scanlines v. blanklines it's just one of those things that makes me cringe slightly, but I'm working on it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:16 pm 



Joined: 22 Sep 2017
Posts: 30
Were non-flat, widescreen CRTs ever a thing in the United States? I know they exist, but I have never seen one in person in all my years.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:21 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Jul 2017
Posts: 272
Location: Outer Heaven
GojiFan90 wrote:
Were non-flat, widescreen CRTs ever a thing in the United States? I know they exist, but I have never seen one in person in all my years.


Shit, I've never seen one and I've had CRTs of all types come and go.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:06 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 719
Location: Australia
Really?? Bang n Olfsen made a few.
They have some really obscure zoom settings too.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:48 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 84
are there any other EDTV plasmas around that are comparable with the Pioneer mentioned in the OP regarding 240p processing and quality?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:48 am 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 2057
Location: Kentucky
maxtherabbit wrote:
are there any other EDTV plasmas around that are comparable with the Pioneer mentioned in the OP regarding 240p processing and quality?


I've had two US Panasonic professional EDTV displays and neither handled 240p correctly. The consumer versions of them might though? (Models I had/have are TH-42PWD5 and TH-42PWD8UK)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:30 am 


User avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 973
Location: Brisbane, Australia
GojiFan90 wrote:
Were non-flat, widescreen CRTs ever a thing in the United States? I know they exist, but I have never seen one in person in all my years.

I can't speak for the US, but plenty existed in Australia (I've got 2 in my shed). We got a mix of stuff made in Europe, Japan and Taiwan.
_________________
https://stickfreaks.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:44 am 



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 267
Non flat widescreen surely wasn't a long lived format anywhere. Sony made very few models for the European market like the KV-32WF1D or the KV-32WS3D (also available in the 28" size) before switching to real flat. I don't know the US market well enough but I wouldn't be surprised if Sony never used non-flat W66 and W76 tubes over there. A US model I know of is the RCA F38310:

Image
_________________
Im running games with a vga to tv converter on my Shangai Novel, with composite and it looks amazing, Im not interested in RGB or Scart.

- Anonymous on Facebook


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:27 am 



Joined: 01 Apr 2015
Posts: 27
I have owned 5 BVM's through the course of a few years: a obsession that occupied me for a while. DAMN HYPE. :roll:

let me ask.
why is it that considering they all have similar hours, that my 2x A20f1m's (900tvl) have pretty much the same sharpness, uniform image and picture quality of D24 (1000tvl), compared to my 20f1e (which is also 900tvl). I mean apart from the annoying sync issues with my Neo geo mvs on the 68x card, i prefer it over the d24. I'm guessing that it could be age of components etc, the A-series is the youngest and last of the BVM crt's. But seriously I thought that they were 1000tvl at first untill I looked it up.

I have sold my 20f since i dont use it, to me it looked more similar to my 20g (800tvl) which i might sell soon. But yeah the a20's picture is amazing and the only thing it fails to compare with the d24 is geometry and of course better sync compatibility. I haven't seen a d20 yet so I cant compare with that yet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:49 am 


User avatar

Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 973
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Saturngamer81 wrote:
I'm guessing that it could be age of components etc

Environmental factors over the life of the unit are the big issue.

I work for a broadcast/VFX company. Back in the day, these things copped all sorts of abuse. Dragged out on site to places like African deserts that were hot and dusty, or put out on site in temporary office buildings running off terribly dirty generator power that spiked and dropped all over the place, well out of spec.

While the initial quality of a system was set per make and model, some of these units were treated badly during their lives, and needed a lot more maintenance than the units that sat in a comfortable air-conditioned office for their whole lives, even if the latter had more hours powered on.
_________________
https://stickfreaks.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:36 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 1093
Not to mention that every object ever made has a tolerance. This shows up more in analog type instruments as well.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:54 pm 



Joined: 12 Jul 2015
Posts: 10
quick query regarding a BVM 20F1E - i know there is a ton of expertise here!

when powered on (without video source) i get faint diagonal inference moving down the screen (RGB). When a source is applied, the interference freezes, leaving some very faint diagonal lines (which can only be seen when displaying black). None of it can be seen during gameplay and the image quality is fantastic; tried two differnet scart to bnc adaptors and unused bvc ports are plugged with 75ohm terminators on the RGB card) Any ideas?

thanks in advance


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:17 pm 



Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 114
Anyone here have a mid-'90s Mitsubishi set that they've gotten into the service menu of?

Tried codes I've found online but the menu system on this set is primitive enough to the point where I can't input any numbers (those that come after the menu button in each code) without changing the channel.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:25 pm 



Joined: 30 Jul 2017
Posts: 27
I have a couple of questions, hopefully someone more knowledgeable answer.

1. When using PS3 on a D24/32 is there any advantage to use HDMI over Component? I am specifically referring to the "RGB Full Range (HDMI) and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)" options I am wondering if there is any benefit to these with the D series monitors as they are only available on HDMI.

2. I remember reading that it is actually possible for the D24/32 to run the PS3 at "1080p 24 Hz" in some cases, anyone know about this?

Thanks in advance.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5044 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CobraKing, lukilla, marqs, satori_hanzo and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group