Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[jedman]

I thought you would need to use an arcade vga card, or modify your gpu to display the low 15khz resolutions?

so you can get all the different system specific resolutions for the different arcade boards?

[Einzelherz]

The fan in my PVM-14L5 is pretty noisy, is it something I can get to easily and clean or replace?

[wyatt8740]

I thought you would need to use an arcade vga card, or modify your gpu to display the low 15khz resolutions?

so you can get all the different system specific resolutions for the different arcade boards?

Well, my intel 945GM chipset can handle this, my nice GTX750 can't.

The fan in my PVM-14L5 is pretty noisy, is it something I can get to easily and clean or replace?

Yes, find the PVM-14L5 and PVM-20L5 service manual. It'll describe how to open it up. From there, it should be relatively easy to get to, if my 20L5 looks anything like your 14L5 inside.

[bobrocks95]

Well, my intel 945GM chipset can handle this, my nice GTX750 can't.

I think that's a pixel clock limitation; it can't get low enough to support 15KHz resolutions, even if you're forcing them. I bought a specific old ATi card for my MAME machine for this very reason.

[BazookaBen]

I thought you would need to use an arcade vga card, or modify your gpu to display the low 15khz resolutions?

so you can get all the different system specific resolutions for the different arcade boards?

Modern AMD cards support 15khz easily. Just use a program called "Custom Resolution Utility" to set whatever refresh rate/resolution combo you desire. I've used this method to get 240p from my Radeon 7970

[ryu]

http://www.ebay.de/itm/SONY-BVM-D24E1WE ... 58c5cbb578

Anyone want to buy a kidney from me?

[Ed Oscuro]

There's one 150 miles from me for $999 USD, has been there for a long time.

It's really not that big a size, and I'm not sure they're really that reliable compared to the D32s which seem to always have discolored corners. I'm not sure it's really worth it to get a heavy D24 when a consumer HDTV will do for most 16:9 content, and a cheap PVM will do for CRT 4:3 action at a much lighter size.

[ryu]

I played a bit of 720p material on an early 90's multisync CRT downscaled to 800x600. That monitor wasn't the best by far, had quite a few issues and yet it looked great. I imagine those BVMs to be the absolute best monitors you can get for HD content, even if they're lacking in screensize and may have slightly discolored corners (that one on ebay doesn't seem to have that issue).

[Ed Oscuro]

Depends on what HD content you're needing: I imagine the BVMs are meant for slower paced material mostly, while many high-end computer monitors may have faster decaying phosphors which could be preferable for higher framerates or fast-moving content, as well as much better high framerate/high resolution support overall, though obviously not plug 'n' play with 15KHz analog sources or digital HD.

[Fudoh]

I imagine the BVMs are meant for slower paced material mostly

no, most certainly not. Remember that the BVM-D24 uses the same tube as the FW900 24" PC CRT, which is an absolute gamers' favorite.

[Ed Oscuro]

The GDM-FW900 in particular shows phosphor persistence (ghosting) in high contrast scenes, which I should have mentioned. It won't be an issue in many scenes, but it can be.

Still I guess you're right - if it's good enough on the FW900 then the D24 won't pose any kind of problem for most games either.

The PC monitor additionally can run up to 80Hz at least, of course.

To be quite clear, I don't want to confuse anybody: This won't affect regular console HD content in 99% of gameplay in the least, and at worst is mostly just a slight annoyance even in fast-paced content affected by it.

[Exidna]

I imagine the BVMs are meant for slower paced material mostly

no, most certainly not. Remember that the BVM-D24 uses the same tube as the FW900 24" PC CRT, which is an absolute gamers' favorite.

Apparently that's a common misconception, with the two displays actually using different tubes.
Though the FW900 is popular because it's the largest high-res CRT monitor you can get for PC use, it's really a graphics display with longer-persistence phosphors to help reduce flicker rather than an ideal gaming display.
Of course being a CRT means that it's still better than 99% of the flat panels out there for gaming purposes.

[Fudoh]

Apparently that's a common misconception, with the two displays actually using different tubes.

I followed some thread not too long ago, which (I think) eventually concluded that the tube itself is identical, just with a different chassis.

Of course being a CRT means that it's still better than 99% of the flat panels out there for gaming purposes.

mind telling us about that last 1% ?

[aaronmjr]

Just listed: PVM-2530 http://www.ebay.com/itm/141679959274?ss ... 1555.l2649

[Ed Oscuro]

Of course being a CRT means that it's still better than 99% of the flat panels out there for gaming purposes.

mind telling us about that last 1% ?

Broad generalizations can't really help us (I'm speaknig apologetically for having stirred up the worms in the first place; I know some things exist, but actual details are hard to come by). Even today, having lag in some transitions (high contrast areas) in a CRT is generally preferable to having lag at all times, along with all the other downsides of LCD technology.

If you're a casual or adventure gamer (there's a lot of overlap these days), then a good quality LCD screen certainly can provide better PQ in all important respects (except perhaps cursor trails) and improved cost effectiveness, which are important to that gaming experience.

If you're a competitive FPS player, then a low-lag, high-framerate, high-resolution, adaptive-synced flat panel will be preferable to even the best CRT.

Technically, the size of these gaming markets means that we're talking a percentage much bigger than 1%.

One thing that is better about the market today is that we don't have just two broad undifferentiated markets and little information - there were "consumer" CRTs and "professional" CRTs, with relevant technical information all but hidden. The catalogs were more likely to mention dot pitch (a mostly useless measure for PC gaming, but important for office workers) but not maximum refresh rate or phosphor decay characteristics. There wasn't any success in enthusiast pushes to get product tailored to special specifications - perhaps trading off slightly increased flicker at lower frame rates for reduced phosphor ghosting (and when there were CRTs with better characteristics in this regard, lack of information again meant that most potential buyers didn't have any idea these were out there). Today, although LCD technology certainly isn't a mature replacement, the manufacturing process, and the technology itself, is cheap and flexible enough that there is an explicit push to market to particular needs and to share more information in order to help that need. Someday this will feel like pining for the days of 4-10 television channels because Johnny Carson isn't on the air anymore

[BazookaBen]

mind telling us about that last 1% ?

Maybe the OLED BVM's? That's just for straight picture quality though, I imagine they could have lag issues. And no models above 1080p or 60hz.

[nissling]

Does anyone know if the BVM-20F1J (Japanese model) can take 220-240V? I know several other monitors can take multiple voltages but cannot find any info on this specific model. I will get one of these within a couple of weeks and it would be really nice not having to get another step-down converter.

[Exidna]

mind telling us about that last 1% ?

Having another look over all of the options available today, we're maybe not quite there yet.
I was really only thinking about persistence when I said that rather than considering every aspect of the display.

With PC CRT monitors having a persistence of about 2ms, we now have LCDs with strobed backlights that can achieve sub-1ms persistence, which should display sharper motion.

Of course when you consider everything about the display such as total latency (less than one frame on those monitors, but still not CRT-level) and things like contrast ratio or viewing angles, CRT is probably still better as a gaming display for now.

Of course CRT has its own problems such as the physical size/weight, brightness, sharpness, resolution, geometry, availability, and potential reliability issues with what displays remain, since they're all going to be at least 10 years old now.
Even connectivity is going to be a potential problem with Intel, AMD (and I would assume NVIDIA as well) killing off VGA support this year.

I'd like to still have a CRT monitor around for certain games, but my last one died more than 5 years ago and I've yet to see a large (21" or better) high quality PC monitor show up anywhere locally since then. (or from a seller willing to ship it at a reasonable price)
They all seem to have dried up - either dying or being discarded.
There are still local ads for televisions - often free if you'll take it off their hands - and occasional but grossly overpriced listings for broadcast monitors, but no decent PC monitors around these parts.

Maybe the OLED BVM's? That's just for straight picture quality though, I imagine they could have lag issues. And no models above 1080p or 60hz.

Sony's OLED panels have the option of scanning the image for improved motion handling, or operating in a flicker-free mode.
They scan in large bands rather than illuminating a single line at a time like a CRT (note the persistence) which means that they display about 8ms persistence and blur considerably more than a 60Hz CRT.

So even though the OLED pixels have switching times measured in microseconds, the amount of motion blur you see, which is mainly determined by persistence, is actually not that great.
OLEDs are sample-and-hold by default, just like non-strobed LCDs, so motion handling on them is actually not that good without some form of scanning/strobing. (just like LCD)

In theory you should be able to strobe/scan them with sub-1ms persistence for extremely sharp motion, but that's going to have a lot of flicker and put a lot of wear on the panel.

The Oculus Rift has a low-persistence mode which reduces its persistence to 2ms (equivalent to a slower CRT) though people were actually noticing panel smearing artifacts in dark areas.
It seems that the Samsung OLED panel used in DK2 actually has response time issues near black, so OLED may not have those perfect microsecond switching times they advertise.
Of course, that Samsung panel was designed to be used in a phone, so maybe it just wasn't a concern of theirs.


As far as motion handling is concerned, blue phase mode LCDs (LCDs with microsecond switching times rather than milliseconds) combined with high intensity LED backlighting may actually the best thing for gaming displays in the near future, rather than OLEDs.
With switching times like that, you could have a low persistence display with next-to-no latency as well.
With current LCD panels you're best to wait most of a frame before switching the backlight on in its low-persistence mode, which minimizes artifacts but increases latency by almost a frame. Most of the current low-persistence LCDs seem to use some amount of overdriving to strike a balance between latency and artifacts.

I just don't know that OLEDs will actually be suitable for monitors/gaming displays. They share a lot of the same issues that plasma displays did. (shorter lifespan, lower brightness, image retention/burn)

[BazookaBen]

The problem right now is that only TN panels have strobing options, and TN panels usually don't have great color. I don't know how the blue phase will stack up, but for the moment you have to sacrifice color for motion clarity or vice versa.

I would hope OLED's eventually improve in durability and cost, but it has been over a decade of waiting already.

[Exidna]

The problem right now is that only TN panels have strobing options, and TN panels usually don't have great color. I don't know how the blue phase will stack up, but for the moment you have to sacrifice color for motion clarity or vice versa.

There are IPS and VA panels with support for this as well.

I would hope OLED's eventually improve in durability and cost, but it has been over a decade of waiting already.

That's why I'm starting to think that brighter backlights and blue phase mode LCD panels may be the future for gaming displays rather than OLEDs.

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

I’ve got an issue that confuses me. This is about the “Finlux 3815” (actually a Philips) CRT TV I found and mentioned earlier.

Today I got the itch to watch some classic anime (from .avi files, not DVDs) on it. So I dug out my PS3 (“fat” HK 40GB model) and hooked it up through RGB SCART. Unfortunately there are some disturbing issues.

In the XMB things behave rather differently than on my other CRT TVs. Browsing through it I see dark flashes behind white text. But that’s not all. Say I move into the PSN section, and everything suddenly gets a green hue. Even the bright white text that is unaffected on other screens. If I go to the games section and pick a game that’s supposed to change the wallpaper the screen dims completely including the bright white text. And while watching some video files, thick dark blue lines flash across the screen, sometimes accompanied by thick bright lines that look completely washed out. So far only dark scenes with bright areas had this problem, for some reason. Any PS1 games downloaded from PSN I tried were not affected by these. (Cotton 100% and Harmful Park)

I’ve no clue what causes this. For the past two weeks I’ve had the PS2 hooked up to it and everything (both games and DVDs) looks vibrant and absolutely beautiful, and there are no signs of what goes on with the PS3. I am using the official European RGB SCART cable, so I wouldn’t even suspect that to be the culprit. Especially since the same cable works just fine when I am using the same PS3 on another CRT TV. Any ideas?

[far327]

New the forums here, but I have spent a lot of time reading for the past year. Really like the community here.

I recently purchased a industrial CRT monitor which has some impressive specs. I'm trying to determine what type of RGB cables will be needed for this monitor. I'm very new to all RGB connections and could use some help. What I'm confused about is whether or not any cables I buy need to have "csync", "Composite Sync", "Sync Stripper" etc... Hopefully the specs below will mean something to someone.

My plan is to use it for 240p output with Retro consoles over Scart connection to BNC connection. I plan to just connect directly this way. No plans to use any XRGB or other scaling devices. I would eventually like a Scart switch.

Here are the specs of the monitor:

Horizontal Frequency - 15khz to 40khz
Vertical Frequency - 45hz to 100hz

Video Syncs:

Analogue 0.7V p-p OR TTL 3,4 or 6 bits
Separate Horizontal and Vertical TTL Syncs
OR Composite TTL Syncs
OR Sync on Green

Here is a pic of the back panel...

$_57 by far327, on Flickr


Thank you everyone!

[Einzelherz]

I’ve got an issue that confuses me. This is about the “Finlux 3815” (actually a Philips) CRT TV I found and mentioned earlier.

Today I got the itch to watch some classic anime (from .avi files, not DVDs) on it. So I dug out my PS3 (“fat” HK 40GB model) and hooked it up through RGB SCART. Unfortunately there are some disturbing issues.

In the XMB things behave rather differently than on my other CRT TVs. Browsing through it I see dark flashes behind white text. But that’s not all. Say I move into the PSN section, and everything suddenly gets a green hue. Even the bright white text that is unaffected on other screens. If I go to the games section and pick a game that’s supposed to change the wallpaper the screen dims completely including the bright white text. And while watching some video files, thick dark blue lines flash across the screen, sometimes accompanied by thick bright lines that look completely washed out. So far only dark scenes with bright areas had this problem, for some reason. Any PS1 games downloaded from PSN I tried were not affected by these. (Cotton 100% and Harmful Park)

I’ve no clue what causes this. For the past two weeks I’ve had the PS2 hooked up to it and everything (both games and DVDs) looks vibrant and absolutely beautiful, and there are no signs of what goes on with the PS3. I am using the official European RGB SCART cable, so I wouldn’t even suspect that to be the culprit. Especially since the same cable works just fine when I am using the same PS3 on another CRT TV. Any ideas?

Could it be the UI being HD or something whereas a PS2 is natively the same resolution?

[Ed Oscuro]

I recently purchased a industrial CRT monitor which has some impressive specs.

Always share the model number!

It looks like it's got BNC inputs for RGBHV - in other words, industrial-strength plugs for the same kind of video a classic 31KHz PC VGA monitor uses. From the specs, it does look like it should accept 15KHz, so RGBs - with luck you just plug the sync cable from RGBs into H, and for that you'd just use a SCART to BNC cable (make sure to match pinouts - JP21 RGB cables, or Euro SCART pinout all the way across; don't mix and match). To plug devices into that, you'd use a device to SCART plug (i.e., EURO SCART pinout Sega Genesis 2 to SCART).

If the H or V plugs don't take RGBs sync, you might need some other method to go from RGBs to RGBHV (going from RGBHV to RGBs just requires a t-shaped adapter, I thought I read recently, but I'm not sure about the other direction).

Component - YPbPr or Y (B-Y)(R-Y) - should plug right into the RGB plugs with no problem. For this you can use regular component cables (red/green/blue) plugged into RCA to BNC adapters (little silver plugs).

[BazookaBen]

I recently purchased a industrial CRT monitor which has some impressive specs.

Always share the model number!

Seriously, it sounds like a neat monitor. 40hz horizontal would give it a max res of just over 800x600 (for some Plants vs Zombies action). You could even get 1600x1200 interlaced.

[sixbynine]

I’ve recently acquired a BVM-A with both an Analogue and SDI input board. The analogue board will provide for retro gaming needs but since this thing does HD (up to 1080i50 I think) I was wondering what the options of going HDMI -> BVM are.

I’ve found a couple of HDMI -> SDI converters (most notable semi affordable boxes by blackmagic) but they tend to embed audio into SDI which is quite useless for me. So the only route that could work that I’ve found yet is: HDMI to SDI converter -> SDI de-embedder -> SDI to BVM, de-embedded audio to audio hardware.

So that could potentially work but I'm not sure about lag introduced by HDMI to SDI. Did anyone ever try to connect an HDMI source to a BVM-A and could share some experiences?

[Fudoh]

Or you just don't care about the embedded audio and grab audio from your source's SPDIF output. Or if only HDMI is available, use a HDMI audio de-embedder beforehand.

You can also do a lot cheaper than Blackmagic. Check out the chinese boxes on ebay and their reviews on Youtube. They look quite alright.

Another step down the price ladder is a HDMI to analogue component converter. This would allow you to remove the noisy HD-SDI board from the BVM.

And yes, the BVM-A does 720p60 and 1080i60. For gaming you usually want to choose 720p60.

[sixbynine]

The HD-SDI board is noisy? What.


Yep, only HDMI available as a source right now. I’ll check for chinese boxes. Would be interesting to find out what lag they introduce, I’d be okay with a few ms but if it goes up to (bad) lcd levels it would kind of defeat the purpose of using a crt.

[BazookaBen]

I was wondering what the options of going HDMI -> BVM are.

The HD Fury adapters are the best converters for HDMI>analog. Zero lag and perfect picture quality. The cheapest option would be the Nano GX which should work great with your BVM.

If you ever get an Xbox One, however, you would need the HDFury 4/3D Fury to get 1080i, since the XBO doesn't have a 1080i option.

I'd say 1080i is best for 30fps games and 720p is best for 60fps games. Unless you have a 30fps game that is precisely rendered at 720p (Pikmin 3 maybe?) in which case you would still use 720p.

[lui]

I am currently having some problems with my Super Famicom, attempting to output RGB to my BVM, Via the SHVC-010 RGB21 Cable.

I had originally purchased a Super Famicom from Japan, then shortly after an official S-Video cable, which I had originally been using with no noticable problems via the suitable composite/yc BKM board.
However after wanting to use RGB, and purchasing an official SHVC-010 I ran into some problems.


The picture I currently receive is the following: (Game is Bokujou Monogatari)


For reference here the same title screen displaying through S-video:


As I had wired up my own BNC breakout cable, I had suspected that the wiring job was defective or that I had somehow essentially wired the cable incorrectly, so after spending a few days re-wiring to no avail, I went ahead and purchased a JP21 breakout cable from retro gaming cables in the UK. To which I have received today. Unfortunately there is no change in the image displayed through RGBS.

I had also originally suspected it might be due to leaky capacitors in the RGB lines via the cable, due to investigating a few old threads and learning that it was a problem with the official SFC RGB cables, resulting in a dark image, which is exactly what I am experiencing here.
So two weeks prior I had ordered an addition SHVC-010 cable (Brand new) this time, and today's result is the same above. After testing this new cable, it could be possible to rule out the cable as being the problem, unless of course the cable I have just received is also defective.

Playing around with the BVM settings I have found what "I think" seems to be the cause of the problem, but not how to fix it.

Turning the red off through the BKM control panel nets this result:



Turning the blue off:



Green off:

Which is the same image as I originally receive. (Or very close)

So Naturally turning both the Red and Blue off gives me no picture:




Seeing that there is no green being displayed I had then assumed it was a problem with my BKM input card.
I currently have a PS2 with an official component cable that I have tested with the monitor set to Component which gives this image:

(Seemingly no current issues via component)

So the BKM card would seem to be currently working in regards to accepting green.
Realizing this the only other factor that could be affecting the picture is the BNC terminators, AKA the 75 OHM terminators I currently have attached to all outputs.

Taking off only the green terminator:


Taking off only the red terminator:


Taking off only the blue terminator:


Terminating only the green:

Obviously the colours are inaccurate due to a loss of green, however slightly closer.

Taking off all the terminators: (The sync does not seem to make a difference whether it is terminated or not in any combination)

Slightly better, however the green seems to be smudged, which leads me to believe that it is high percent change of being a problem with the Green somewhere in the chain, whether that be in the cable or in the BKM card.
You can compare with the S-Video cable above.

The possible problems:

• The Super Famicom itself. (I am not quite sure if this is possible, however in this thread: http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3203.40 kamiboy has reported that there is a revision of the US snes that does not work with official RGB cables. Is it possible that my current SFC has some issue in regards to green resistance/output?)
  
  The RGB SHVC-010 Cable. It is possible that this cable is also defective, but I am unsure whether the capacitors are leaking or not. (Or to be honest, how to tell for that matter)
  
  [s]The JP 21 to BNC breakout cable. - Unlikely as the current one I am using was purchased from retro-gaming cables, and I had received the same image from my 'home made' wired breakout cable.(To which I had originally thought was the problem)[/s]
  
  The BNC terminators. I had originally had a problem with the terminators I purchased from the same seller, not being able to fit onto the BNC connections for some reason, so this is the second batch from the same seller. Possible problem?
  
  The last, the BKM analog card. Hopefully it is anything but this, due to how hard it is to source this part. Judging from my trials with the PS2 via component, it seems to not be the case, however that is regarding component. As I only have my Super Famicon to test, I have no other RGB systems or ways to display RGB via the monitor.

I am considering purchasing something that can display RGBS via the input card, so I can rule the problem being with the BKM.
The BVM is the only monitor I possess at the moment that can display an analogue signal. So my equipment to test various inputs is non existent.


Any recommendations on what to do next?