Fudoh's ode to old display technology

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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

I have a PVM 1943-MD that looks good with RGB but when I use S-Video the color looks washed out. I've tried cranking up the chroma but that doesn't seem to help much. Is there anything else I can try?
tongshadow
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

Out of all PVMs I tested, only the 80xxq series had RGB-like S-Video quality. The 14N2U in particular had atrocious S-Video quality.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

tongshadow wrote:Out of all PVMs I tested, only the 80xxq series had RGB-like S-Video quality. The 14N2U in particular had atrocious S-Video quality.
I'm starting to wonder if that's what the problem is. That the s-video on this monitor is just poor. Maybe I should try the composite?
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Ed Oscuro »

I believe the 20L2 has fairly good S-Video (and probably the entire L series). They also have a new (for the time) digital comb filter if you have to use composite video.
tongshadow
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

tongshadow wrote:Ok, I got it to work. Pretty neat setup for PS2 games, if I want 480i I just stay on the PVM, 480p gets sent to the monitor through the PVM's RGB output.
https://i.imgur.com/k0hoHgA.jpeg
A followup to this. 480p RGsB directly into a VGA monitor doesnt look substantially better than using a good transcoder like the XRGB-3/OSSC. I was also getting a weird slight green tint, which isnt present in VGA/RGB (the monitor is calibrated btw).
SO, if your VGA Monitor doesnt support sync-on-green, it's not the end of the world as it's only useful in very limited scenarios.
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Blair
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Blair »

Just for fun I decided to use the OSSC On my 15hz Sony CRT. Mostly becuse I didn't have a Component Video 3 RCA to D-sub 15 Pin Adapter Cable on hand, and I just recived my DAC for the NT and SG. so I just used an old VGA cable (into the OSSC). anyway, just kind of a fun idea and possible way to set up the OSSC PRO for its downscaler mode once that comes out.

Video Chain:
Analogue Super NT + HDMI + DAC + RGBHV + OSSC 1.5 + DVI/HDMI + HDMI to Component converter - KV-13FS100 CRT
OSSC Settings: 240p passthru, everything else stock.
Game: Mega Man X

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kitty666cats
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by kitty666cats »

People always seem to forget that’s an option. Obvi not ideal since it’s a bit of a cable-mess, but it’s perfectly fine for transcoding! Fudoh mentions using the OSSC this way on his website, never really see people do it though.

BTW, which HDMI to Component is it? The black aluminum one with the smooth rounded top & Lontium chipset?
Last edited by kitty666cats on Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

So I finally got around to testing the S-Video on my PVM 1943-MD with a system that can run the 240p test suite. I've been suspicious that the S-Video input has blue bleed issues, but I haven't had a way to easily test it. Now using my SNES S-Video cable I can run the 240p suite. The results are somewhat inconclusive. You can see in these pictures (sort of) that the blue bleed check isn't as clean as the red and green, but you can still see the individual bars. I'm not sure if it's worth playing with the BIAS/GAIN or not.
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Blair
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Blair »

kitty666cats wrote:People always seem to forget that’s an option. Obvi not ideal since it’s a bit of a cable-mess, but it’s perfectly fine for transcoding! Fudoh mentions using the OSSC this way on his website, never really see people do it though.

BTW, which HDMI to Component is it? The black aluminum one with the smooth rounded top & Lontium chipset?
Yeah, its not super practical for most modern setups but it was fun to see the ossc menu on that little sony crt (aperture grille trinitron). as for the conveter, its the generic one Mike Chi usually recommends. sounds like the one you described (it also worked great for conecting an hdmi only xbox 360).

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Video Chain:1
Analogue Super NT + HDMI + DAC + RGBHV + OSSC 1.5 + DVI/HDMI + HDMI to Component converter - KV-13FS100 CRT
Video Chain:2
Sega Saturn v2 + RGB scart + OSSC 1.5 + DVI/HDMI + HDMI to Component converter - KV-13FS100 CRT
OSSC Settings: 240p passthru, everything else stock.
Games: Mega Man X, X-Men vs. Street Fighter
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Last edited by Blair on Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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kitty666cats
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by kitty666cats »

Yep, same one. Mike swears by using one with MiSTER instead of the I/O board/he used one of those to aid in creating the RT5X!
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

I have a 20" PVM (1943MD) that appears to have some sort of stretching at the bottom of the screen when games scroll downwards. I'm assuming this is some sort of linearity issue but I've adjusted the VLIN so that the monoscope pattern in the 240p suite looks correct (the cross on the top is the same size as the cross on the bottom). Is there anything else I can adjust to fix this? Maybe I don't the the linearity adjusted correctly after all? Is there another way to check?
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

Can someone tell me the best way to adjust the vertical linearity on a CRT? I've been told that using the Monoscope pattern in the 240p test suite is the way to go, but at this point I'm not sure how.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by SuperSpongo »

If you've already tried adjusting with the pattern but don't like the look with scrolling content, why don't you try adjusting it with scrolling content? The 240p test suite has the scrolling fine grid and the other one (you have to press a button at the Sonic scroll test, I can't remember off the top of my head).
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

SuperSpongo wrote:If you've already tried adjusting with the pattern but don't like the look with scrolling content, why don't you try adjusting it with scrolling content? The 240p test suite has the scrolling fine grid and the other one (you have to press a button at the Sonic scroll test, I can't remember off the top of my head).
I actually did that and I couldn't see the issue on the bottom of the screen, but there is this weird 'ripple' when it goes from the top to the center and then from the center to the bottom which shows up in the scroll test but I didn't notice it in a game. Weird...

I got some advice on what I should do. Does this sound right?

I was told that first I should use the HSIZ and VSIZ to make the two big red squares actually square (equal on all sides) then measure each individual 'square' on the pattern starting from the top and going to the bottom and make sure they're all the same size (meaning the squares on the top half aren't longer than the ones on the bottom half and vice versa). I know for a fact right now that those two red squares aren't square so I can start there. I thought the rest of the squares were pretty uniform, but I guess I'll have to do some more measuring and see.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by nissling »

Got a Sony KV-29CL11E a couple weeks back that I just sold again. I never got completely satisfied with the colors as I am a very picky colorist, but otherwise I really like it. It would really serve as a good addition to my BVMs if only it could get more saturated and brighter reds as those were clearly not up to EBU standard. Ironically some of the photos got a red push, most notably the Contra title screen.

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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

I now have a PVM-2530 in great condition in addition to my KV-25XBR in great condition, so I'm finally able to compare them.


I might make a deeper analysis with pics but in short : the dot size (not pitch) seems a little smaller on the 2530, making everything a little tighter. The brightness and picture controls have a tighter response too so electronics overall must be a bit better all around.

But otherwise the picture is pretty similar.

I actually like the slightly softer look of the 25XBR sometimes as the shadings blend better together.

But the 2530 is a monster no doubt. A very nice middle ground of tightness yet still seeing some phosphor textures(which the BVM lack). Really my kinda Trinitron, I love it.

And the 25XBR gives me a replacement tube since, if I'm not mistaken, they share the same tube.

Super happy to have both sets, my large Trinitron collection is complete at last with these two.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

So to answer my own question, I ended up having to cut off some of the top and bottom of the screen (maybe a 1/4 of the red squares) to get the two large red squares to be perfectly square otherwise they tended to be wider than they were tall (the left and right are fully on the screen and not cut off). I'm not noticing any difference in the appearance of shapes in the games but I am kind of annoyed that the status bars on some games are now cut off a little. I'm thinking I may reopen the TV and put it back to how it was. How important is that perfectly square aspect ratio thing on the Monoscope pattern anyway?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

I'm trying to figure out the weird vertical scrolling distortion I'm seeing on my 1943MD. It's hard to capture in a video (although I tried), but there's a weird sort of 'bump' distortion when the image scrolls into the center of the screen from the bottom 1/3rd and a less so when it scrolls out of the center and towards the top 1/3rd of the screen. I'm thinking it's either a linearity issue or possibly just some dying caps.

I also took a picture of the scanlines on a white screen which may help show if the V linearity is correct. There's some obvious convergence issues that show up on the solid white screen, but ignore those.

Any advice? To me the V Linearity looks correct, but I'm not an expert on such things. I tried measuring the squares and I think they might be just a smidgen wider than they are tall but if they are it's not by much.

http://atariprotos.com/temp/scanlines.jpg

http://atariprotos.com/temp/linearity.mov

http://atariprotos.com/temp/SNES_Grid.JPG
Namingway_PL
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Namingway_PL »

Hello!

I can get a Sony LMD-4250W for cheap. Are they any good for anything related to gaming? Or should I pass on this one?

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tongshadow
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

Hard pass, old LCDs are horrible. If it were a Plasma that would be a different story.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by kitty666cats »

nissling wrote:Got a Sony KV-29CL11E a couple weeks back that I just sold again. I never got completely satisfied with the colors as I am a very picky colorist, but otherwise I really like it. It would really serve as a good addition to my BVMs if only it could get more saturated and brighter reds as those were clearly not up to EBU standard. Ironically some of the photos got a red push, most notably the Contra title screen.
Is this a model that has “AXPL” in the service menu? If so, perhaps try experimenting with that activated or deactivated and adjusting the red accordingly to each until you find something that looks better to your eyes
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kitty666cats
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by kitty666cats »

Namingway_PL wrote:Hello!

I can get a Sony LMD-4250W for cheap. Are they any good for anything related to gaming? Or should I pass on this one?

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I’d imagine it could be quite nice for modern stuff once adjusted properly, but I think I’ve heard there’s no good reason to use it with retro games. Don’t quote me on that, it might not be that good for games *period*. I think RetroRGB Bob and others have tested the non-CRT Sony pro monitors before
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by xeos »

tongshadow wrote:Hard pass, old LCDs are horrible. If it were a Plasma that would be a different story.
Not sure I agree - the best looking upscaling/deinterlacing I've seen is from a sony LCD v3000 / vl130 from 2008.

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... aling.html

or maybe it's this samsung from 2012:

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... t-lag.html

I agree I've seen lots of poorly done upscaling and deinterlacing though on older models. But also on newer models. bottom line it needs to be tested by somebody that cares before you can really know.

and of course lag is always and issue and seems to be getting better on newer models (but maybe not much for 480i inputs).
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

Pixel response times and contrast are going to be awful on a 2008 LCD panel. And that 480i picture is full of ringing.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by KPackratt2k »

When doing my occasional Craigslist searches, I recently stumbled upon a free Sony KV-27S22 27" CRT TV in Lacey. Do you think I should take the plunge on it even though I already have a 27" Sony CRT from the same era? On one hand I could pass on it and hope that someone who needs it more than I would picks it up, but there's always the risk of no one being interested in it and the owner deciding to send it out for recycling which would be tragic as CRTs (especially for cheap) are getting harder to find nationwide. On the other hand I don't have a lot of room to spare and it doesn't have an S-Video input (I checked the manual for proof), which is typically a must-have for me, but I guess modding it is always an option.

What do you think I should do?
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xeos
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by xeos »

good condition CRTs are going to be almost impossible to find very soon. Mine was the best of models I picked up 6 years ago, and at least one of the three was badly fading. So I'd say it's worth laying eyes on but only worth keeping if the image is good. I suppose people are starting to re-master the art of fixing them though.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

So I've been attempting to fix some of the convergence issues on my Trinitron (KV-27FS100). Most of it is good with the exception of the top right and bottom right corners and the top and bottom couple of scanlines. Someone suggested that I try adjusting the TLV pot on the neckboard which plays with the horizontal convergence. This worked in fixing most of my problem but introduced a new one. Now the top and bottoms of my screen are MUCH better, but now there's a slight magenta misconvergence on the lower half of the screen. It's not too bad and honestly from a distance you might not even notice it, but sometimes it makes the black of the scanlines appear as a light magenta which is noticeable. I first noticed it on the 240p Test suite menu in the gray background. Now I'm not sure what to do.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

I spent several hours one day tweaking convergence pots on my FV310, and it's all a balancing act that'll never be perfect. Research and watch what each adjustment does, then dial it in so it's equally off on both sides of the screen. Focus on cardinal directions for dynamic convergence, so very middle at the very top edge, very middle at the bottom, etc. For example, one pot is vertical red/blue balance. All the way one direction, red at the top is leaning left, red at the bottom is leaning right, like a diagonal line. Adjust to get the top perfect and you'll see that the bottom will be a bit off. Adjust for the bottom and now the top's bad again. You'll have to get both equally off so that hopefully it's not noticeable, and that's the best you can do.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

bobrocks95 wrote:I spent several hours one day tweaking convergence pots on my FV310, and it's all a balancing act that'll never be perfect. Research and watch what each adjustment does, then dial it in so it's equally off on both sides of the screen. Focus on cardinal directions for dynamic convergence, so very middle at the very top edge, very middle at the bottom, etc. For example, one pot is vertical red/blue balance. All the way one direction, red at the top is leaning left, red at the bottom is leaning right, like a diagonal line. Adjust to get the top perfect and you'll see that the bottom will be a bit off. Adjust for the bottom and now the top's bad again. You'll have to get both equally off so that hopefully it's not noticeable, and that's the best you can do.
It's really the red/blue (magenta) that's out of alignment on the bottom half of the screen (middle of the screen downward) but that's out of whack going horizontally. I don't think playing with anything that adjusts the left/right is going to help that (the vertical convergence seems good for the most part). Maybe the XCV adjust might help if this diagram is to be believed, but I can't seem to figure out how to move that dial as it has a clip on the end that's attached to the core that seems to prevent it from moving at all. Also the issue extends across almost the entire screen, not just on the left or right side.

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Josh128
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Josh128 »

The XCV should have an allen-screw insert that can be rotated which moves it into and out of the coil core. I've adjusted on my 36" SD and it does what its supposed to. Its subtle, so you need to be very meticulous when you adjust it.
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