Fudoh's ode to old display technology

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Guspaz
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Guspaz »

RF, composite, and S-Video used NTSC colour encoding, RGB did not.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Classicgamer »

Guspaz wrote:RF, composite, and S-Video used NTSC colour encoding, RGB did not.
Exactly.

And, as I said, NTSC color and RGB are not compatible with each other. The majority of arcade boards only output rgb and therefore can not be used with an American TV without a color transcoder like a jrok or Namco's own RGB to NTSC converters.

Arcade boards output a higher voltage too so you also need a resistor array to use CGA and EGA pcbs on a consumer TV (which is why people use a Supergun).
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vol.2
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by vol.2 »

I think that a good practical comparison is PAL video. If you watch something that was recorded for PAL like, say, The Muppet Show (which was recorded at Elstree), the color palette looks weird because they didn't really translate the system seamlessly. It looks weirdly dark, as does alot of the BBC stuff from the 80's.
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werk91
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by werk91 »

CRT does what LCDon't
https://youtu.be/V8BVTHxc4LM
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Guspaz
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Guspaz »

Unless you want to use them on a modern graphics card (none of them support VGA) or at high refresh rates (CRTs generally don't support them at high resolutions, and DisplayPort-to-HDMI adapters don't support high refresh rates for CRT monitors that do have moderately high refresh rates), or you know, actually own one, since high-end CRT monitors are very rare and very expensive.

People love the FW900, except the thing weighs a hundred pounds for a 24" monitor and you'd be hard-pressed to find an adapter that will output its maximum refresh rate of 98Hz at 1920x1200 resolution.

I do greatly regret throwing away my reasonably high-end Viewsonic 19" CRT, but it topped out at 1600x1200 at 60Hz, which was flicker-city. You needed like 72Hz to get flicker-free video on a PC CRT.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by maxtherabbit »

I can take that burdensome FW900 away for you bro, it's cool I lift
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Classicgamer »

Flicker is usually only an issue on CRTs with interlaced resolutions. Interlacing halves the frame rate so while 1080i, for example, is 60hz, it is only showing 30 full frames per second.

This issue is made worse on Windows PCs which often treat interlaced modes as 30hz progressive modes. E.g. 480i 60hz is displayed as 480p 30hz.

One of the issues with how CRT specs were stated is that they used interlaced modes to state a higher top resolution - which is obviously no good for computer graphics. They should really be stated as a range of horizontal and vertical refresh rates. The Sony G90 specs state 15khz to 150khz horizontal and 38hz to 150hz vertical. This is the top spec CRT device I have ever come across.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by sliceypete »

Found a Sony PVM-9041QM near me that looks to be in decent shape, the seller wants 70e for it, should I pick it up? does anyone here have a 9 in PVM? is it too small to game on?

Also, any tips on what I should look for when testing this monitor?

I thing of bringing my dreamcast with the 240p suite and connect it via composite with BNC phono adapter, (can't find a place online that has a female scart to BNC cable in stock)
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Guspaz
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Guspaz »

Computer CRTs flicker at 60Hz with progerssive resolutions. This has nothing to do with interlacing. Did you not use computers during the 90s? The generally accepted wisdom was that 72Hz was required to avoid flicker for most people.

CRT monitors only support their max vertical refresh rate at relatively low resolutions. The Sony G90 can, but it's also not a CRT monitor, it's a 242 pound tri-CRT projector that had an MSRP of $35,000. Even today I see used ones on sale in the $5-10 thousand range.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

Flicker is an issue at 60hz for desktop applications.
Thats why most manufacturers recommend a max resolution running at 66Hz~85Hz.

And even cheap CRT Monitors are capable of doing 120hz+ at 1280x960 interlaced or higher.
Just take the highest frequency it can do at that resolution and double it (although it cant exceed the max vertical refresh rate, which is 160hz for most monitors). But yes, flicker can be noticeable.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Unseen »

sliceypete wrote:Found a Sony PVM-9041QM near me that looks to be in decent shape, the seller wants 70e for it, should I pick it up? does anyone here have a 9 in PVM? is it too small to game on?
That's the version with the low-resolution tube. 70 EUR feels a bit expensive to me for that - I've seen the PVM-9L3(*) for less on eBay, although without an RGB input card. The size is a subjective thing, for me it's a really nice benchtop monitor for testing things without wondering if some issue I'm seeing is real or caused by the scaler/TFT, but I would prefer something larger for gaming.

(*) two generations newer, same Hires CRT as the 9042/9045, but RGB/component input only using the BKM-129X board which can be a bit hard to find
Also, any tips on what I should look for when testing this monitor?
The usual CRT issues - burn-in, convergence, scratches on the tube's surface, etc.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by m54b25 »

I have PVM 6041QM, PVM 9L3 and PVM 14L4 :) Image
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Classicgamer »

Guspaz wrote:Computer CRTs flicker at 60Hz with progerssive resolutions. This has nothing to do with interlacing. Did you not use computers during the 90s? The generally accepted wisdom was that 72Hz was required to avoid flicker for most people.

CRT monitors only support their max vertical refresh rate at relatively low resolutions. The Sony G90 can, but it's also not a CRT monitor, it's a 242 pound tri-CRT projector that had an MSRP of $35,000. Even today I see used ones on sale in the $5-10 thousand range.
It's a matter of opinion (and marketing). I have never had an issue with flicker when playing 60hz games in 60hz. I know that some people are more sensitive to it than others though.

I am super sensitive to the flicker and blur from interlaced resolutions. It drives me mad when consoles like the PS2 display 240p games in 480i. I don't notice it on games that are meant to be 480i though.

Anyway, 90% of the games I'd play on a CRT are around 60hz and look best at native refresh rates. I rarely notice any flicker unless I am looking at text-heavy documents.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Classicgamer »

sliceypete wrote:Found a Sony PVM-9041QM near me that looks to be in decent shape, the seller wants 70e for it, should I pick it up? does anyone here have a 9 in PVM? is it too small to game on?

Also, any tips on what I should look for when testing this monitor?

I thing of bringing my dreamcast with the 240p suite and connect it via composite with BNC phono adapter, (can't find a place online that has a female scart to BNC cable in stock)
Yes. Definitely too small to game on as your main display. It's OK if you are making a small portable novelty arcade thingy but not for use at home. I wouldn't bother with anything smaller than 20" (19" visible).

For $70 you are far better off picking up a larger CRT TV with component video if you live in America, or one with RGB if you are in Europe or Japan.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by maxtherabbit »

Classicgamer wrote:
Guspaz wrote:Computer CRTs flicker at 60Hz with progerssive resolutions. This has nothing to do with interlacing. Did you not use computers during the 90s? The generally accepted wisdom was that 72Hz was required to avoid flicker for most people.

CRT monitors only support their max vertical refresh rate at relatively low resolutions. The Sony G90 can, but it's also not a CRT monitor, it's a 242 pound tri-CRT projector that had an MSRP of $35,000. Even today I see used ones on sale in the $5-10 thousand range.
It's a matter of opinion (and marketing). I have never had an issue with flicker when playing 60hz games in 60hz. I know that some people are more sensitive to it than others though.

I am super sensitive to the flicker and blur from interlaced resolutions. It drives me mad when consoles like the PS2 display 240p games in 480i. I don't notice it on games that are meant to be 480i though.

Anyway, 90% of the games I'd play on a CRT are around 60hz and look best at native refresh rates. I rarely notice any flicker unless I am looking at text-heavy documents.
Agreed. I used 60Hz modes on my PC-CRTs extensively in the 90s and early 00s for gaming without any problem. Only an (minor) issue when doing text/productivity applications
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Xyga
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Xyga »

That "PC CRTs flicker at 60Hz" matter has long been overblown, indeed.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Einzelherz »

Or not? Cause many people here specifically say they notice(d) it. For me it was desktop + text type screens that I'd see it on. Games are usually moving enough that it didn't bother me in them.
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sliceypete
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by sliceypete »

Classicgamer wrote:
sliceypete wrote:Found a Sony PVM-9041QM near me that looks to be in decent shape, the seller wants 70e for it, should I pick it up? does anyone here have a 9 in PVM? is it too small to game on?

Also, any tips on what I should look for when testing this monitor?

I thing of bringing my dreamcast with the 240p suite and connect it via composite with BNC phono adapter, (can't find a place online that has a female scart to BNC cable in stock)
Yes. Definitely too small to game on as your main display. It's OK if you are making a small portable novelty arcade thingy but not for use at home. I wouldn't bother with anything smaller than 20" (19" visible).

For $70 you are far better off picking up a larger CRT TV with component video if you live in America, or one with RGB if you are in Europe or Japan.
Thanks for the input, I think I will pass on this one and wait to find a 14' or 20' one down the line.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Xyga »

Einzelherz wrote:Or not? Cause many people here specifically say they notice(d) it. For me it was desktop + text type screens that I'd see it on. Games are usually moving enough that it didn't bother me in them.
Yes it is, internet-style because it's delivered as a blanket statement.
Think of humanity for about 30 years using CRT monitors at 60Hz, only a minority ever complained about getting 'eyeaches' and learned about increasing the refresh.
The issue always existed, but because a sample of humanity here today states it without mention of that extremely important nuance, doesn't make the reality of the phenomenon any bigger than it ever was.
It's kinda like LED PWM flicker, we've made a lot of noise about it, even I did for a time because it affected me somehow, but it only really affects a minority, and that's beyond worth just mentioning, it is mandatory to if objectivity ever mattered.
So 'overblown' ? if the issue is generalized without the minority precision; yes definitely.



EDIT:
werk91 wrote:CRT does what LCDon't
http://youtu.be/V8BVTHxc4LM
- Old nerds 'discover' in 2019 what 10-20 years younger gaming nerds knew for like 15 years, then post a video on an influent channel.
- Average FW900 prices on ebay; +1$ with each view of that video. :mrgreen:
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werk91
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by werk91 »

Lmao, as if FW900 wasn't stupidly expensive already :mrgreen:
All in all I was just pleasantly surpised to such a mainstream outlet post something of this nature.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

Nevermind the FW900's, I'm sure everyone will be looking for decent PC CRT's now and prices will eventually be just as ridiculous as they are now for PVMs.
It's no longer going to be a good deal like they're right now, specially when people realize they're also very good for retrogaming but costs less than a fraction of an old and overpriced PVM.
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werk91
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by werk91 »

Hopefully it won't reach those levels, since that was consumer tech there's many more of them around I imagine.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by SuperSpongo »

Here in Germany, a couple of search requests popped up for an FW900 right after the DF video, it's nuts. One guy wants to pay 1000€ for one. I might just offer mine up for 1.5k and see what happens :lol:
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Fudoh »

I might just offer mine up for 1.5k and see what happens
will sell right away.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by strayan »

SuperSpongo wrote:Here in Germany, a couple of search requests popped up for an FW900 right after the DF video, it's nuts. One guy wants to pay 1000€ for one. I might just offer mine up for 1.5k and see what happens :lol:
Be bold, ebay no reserve (that's how I sell everything).
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by SuperSpongo »

I'd rather be rich :oops: :mrgreen:
Fudoh wrote: will sell right away.
Right now I wouldn't be suprised. But a couple of months ago a seller tried to get rid of his for 1500. I checked on his offer every now and then and saw the price go down over the weeks. I think the offer disappeared sub 1000€.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by andykara2003 »

Wait a few years and see the price *really* go up. I'm looking to retire in a nice cotswold cottage after selling off my NEC & BVM monitors in 2040 :)
Last edited by andykara2003 on Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by fernan1234 »

I really doubt we'll see PC CRT prices end up rising like in the case of pro monitors. Unlike the latter they were never super expensive to begin with (with some rare exceptions) and the quantity available is significantly greater.

Of course the FW900 will see increased demand for a while after videos like that, but I don't think it'll be permanent. As great as it is, it's still a consumer-level product.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

"Consumer" in the sense that anyone could buy one back then, and many of these monitors were actually used for professional work, like image/photo editing.
And there's a lot of good stuff between a FW900 and a crappy 15" display. We're talking about monitors that can do 2k resolutions and high refresh rates. Like the Sony G502 which is basically a 4:3 FW900, or high/mid-end Viewsonic monitors.

The point is, people will realize they dont really need to pay a grand for a FW900, when a 19 incher with similar specs is close enough while costing a fraction of the price. And that's when people will stop "giving away" those monitors and prices will start to shoot up.

And from I could tell on reddit, PC CRTs are already getting harder to find.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by orange808 »

tongshadow wrote:"Consumer" in the sense that anyone could buy one back then, and many of these monitors were actually used for professional work, like image/photo editing.
And there's a lot of good stuff between a FW900 and a crappy 15" display. We're talking about monitors that can do 2k resolutions and high refresh rates. Like the Sony G502 which is basically a 4:3 FW900, or high/mid-end Viewsonic monitors.

The point is, people will realize they dont really need to pay a grand for a FW900, when a 19 incher with similar specs is close enough while costing a fraction of the price. And that's when people will stop "giving away" those monitors and prices will start to shoot up.

And from I could tell on reddit, PC CRTs are already getting harder to find.
I think the aspect ratio of the FW900 was a big draw. What are the other options?

I'm not exactly going to play a new game on Steam in 4:3. Sure, my smaller monitors accept high resolutions, but even a 19" monitor looks really small when I start letterboxing...
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