Fudoh's ode to old display technology

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maxtherabbit
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by maxtherabbit »

My d series does some of the same distortions when the content changes. It's the same mechanism of action as the bloom you see in a bright white screen afaik.

The scanlines aren't as crisp because it's a slot mask
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

maxtherabbit wrote:My d series does some of the same distortions when the content changes. It's the same mechanism of action as the bloom you see in a bright white screen afaik.
Ah ok then it's not something I can do anything about then? Will this affect a lot of games? Is there something in the service menu I can try to alleviate this?

maxtherabbit wrote: The scanlines aren't as crisp because it's a slot mask
I suppose so. Still, it's actually quite nice.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by maxtherabbit »

I havent found anything I can do about it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I would think some type of HV regulation would be necessary.

It seems to affect all games but in most cases it's not offensive enough to bother me
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

maxtherabbit wrote:I havent found anything I can do about it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I would think some type of HV regulation would be necessary.

It seems to affect all games but in most cases it's not offensive enough to bother me
I'll have to do some more testing and see. Axelay was the only game so far where I've noticed it (and LttP a little). Maybe my Trinitron won't be dethroned after all...
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

So I'm noticing that the color on my set seems a bit dim unless I crank up the brightness. I wonder if this means the tube is worn out? Here are some examples from the Genesis and SNES color bar tests showing the color bars with the brightness at full and the brightness at the middle. You can see how when I turn the brightness down you lose the first three or so bars and details get lost in games. Maybe I can fix this in the SM or inside the set itself?
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

maxtherabbit wrote:I havent found anything I can do about it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I would think some type of HV regulation would be necessary.

It seems to affect all games but in most cases it's not offensive enough to bother me
I tried several games but the problem seems to be only in SNES games so far. For example here it is again in Actraiser
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Could it be my SNES scart cable somehow? It's a nice Insurrection Industries cable and it doesn't happen on the Trinitron so I'm kind of doubting that.
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ASDR
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by ASDR »

Tempest_2084 wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:I havent found anything I can do about it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I would think some type of HV regulation would be necessary.

It seems to affect all games but in most cases it's not offensive enough to bother me
I tried several games but the problem seems to be only in SNES games so far. For example here it is again in Actraiser
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Could it be my SNES scart cable somehow? It's a nice Insurrection Industries cable and it doesn't happen on the Trinitron so I'm kind of doubting that.
That's just blooming, nearly all TVs do that. The image expands when it gets brighter, in Axeley you can see how the image expands around the bright region. This happens more if you crank up the brightness. If you got a TV that's a bit dark for whatever reason and you crank it up more to compensate, you'll make this effect worse. If you don't like it you'll have to get a PVM, PC CRT or one of the few consumer TVs with HV regulation like the FV310.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

ASDR wrote: That's just blooming, nearly all TVs do that. The image expands when it gets brighter, in Axeley you can see how the image expands around the bright region. This happens more if you crank up the brightness. If you got a TV that's a bit dark for whatever reason and you crank it up more to compensate, you'll make this effect worse. If you don't like it you'll have to get a PVM, PC CRT or one of the few consumer TVs with HV regulation like the FV310.
While I do have the brightness cranked up all the way (the tube needs it), but I swear I tried turning the brightness down almost all the way and it still did that. If I were to turn up the screen knob inside the tv (assuming it has one), would that allow me to then turn down the brightness and maybe fix this? That or maybe the RGB cutoffs?

I'll have to check but I swear I didn't have this issue with my kv27fs100, but on that one I don't have the brightness turned up past the middle.
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ASDR
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by ASDR »

In my experience, there's nothing you can really do. G2 adjustments, sub-brightess / sub-contrast / RGB bias&gain in the service menu are not going to help with this. Basically every TV will have this issue, question is how much. I found that on older, worn out TVs where I have to crank the brightness to max it's way worse.

btw, just to be clear, in TV user picture menus brightness = bias and contrast = gain. If I (or most people, I guess) say brightness we don't mean the TVs brightness setting (which is a bias), we mean contrast (which is the gain, or what adjusts the actual brightness). 'Normal'-ish settings are brightness = 50% and contrast = 80%. No idea why it became customary to name this things so strangely in TV menus.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

ASDR wrote:In my experience, there's nothing you can really do. G2 adjustments, sub-brightess / sub-contrast / RGB bias&gain in the service menu are not going to help with this. Basically every TV will have this issue, question is how much. I found that on older, worn out TVs where I have to crank the brightness to max it's way worse.

btw, just to be clear, in TV user picture menus brightness = bias and contrast = gain. If I (or most people, I guess) say brightness we don't mean the TVs brightness setting (which is a bias), we mean contrast (which is the gain, or what adjusts the actual brightness). 'Normal'-ish settings are brightness = 50% and contrast = 80%. No idea why it became customary to name this things so strangely in TV menus.
Right now I have to turn up the bias all the way to see all the colors. I only have the gain turned up half way. If I have the bias in the middle and turn up the gain it doesn't work as well.

I just want to tweak things so it's not as bad if that's possible.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by ASDR »

That sounds pretty busted :/ On Sony's there's always sub-contrast and sub-brightness settings in the service menu if things are completely out of whack. There's also per channel bias/gain control to calibrate the colors. There's a procedure for that recommended in the Sony service manuals. On the fancier TVs you also can set a gamma parameter for some non-linear adjustment of the screens brightness response. Maybe you can get it into a decent place with all of these, but if it's too far gone maybe there's really an issue with the tube or some other hardware issue like aging caps etc.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

ASDR wrote:That sounds pretty busted :/ On Sony's there's always sub-contrast and sub-brightness settings in the service menu if things are completely out of whack. There's also per channel bias/gain control to calibrate the colors. There's a procedure for that recommended in the Sony service manuals. On the fancier TVs you also can set a gamma parameter for some non-linear adjustment of the screens brightness response. Maybe you can get it into a decent place with all of these, but if it's too far gone maybe there's really an issue with the tube or some other hardware issue like aging caps etc.
It's actually not too bad. I posted some pictures a few posts previous. I think there are RGB settings in the SM but I haven't touched those. I did find a manual for it though:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/96497 ... opE#manual

In all honesty this set is probably going to be my back up. I still think my Trintron has a better picture overall even with the convergence issues.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by ASDR »

A service manual with soldering instructions, awesome:
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I don't even look at non-Sony TVs these days. I know everybody has their preferences, but for me I've pretty much decided that I'm a Sony guy. Mostly for these reasons:

- Aperture Grill > *. I just like the 'vertical scanline' pixel substructure look, they're also generally brighter / sharper, in my experience
- Trinitron screen geometry. I like the horizontal Trinitron curve and I like flat screens. I don't like the fishbowl look at all. Sony went heavier / earlier towards flat screens, the overwhelming majority of non-Sony TVs here are fishbowl
- I love Sony's industrial design, especially in the 80s and 90s before they went all silver plastic + huge bezels, and even those have their charm
- I generally like Sony's service menus and internal adjustments better than the competition, but maybe that's just my bias since I'm more familiar with Trinitrons
- I've had the chance to see other TV brands that people rave about, like B&O or JVC, and I wasn't terribly impressed. They were not bad or anything, but I certainly didn't feel like I was missing anything by sticking with Sony
- It's not like I have to settle for anything, I was able to fill my house with Sony TVs, Sony PC CRTs and Sony PVMs without spending much or driving for hours
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

ASDR wrote: - It's not like I have to settle for anything, I was able to fill my house with Sony TVs, Sony PC CRTs and Sony PVMs without spending much or driving for hours
I can generally find CRTs easily enough around here, but the problem is is that I don't want to fill my house with crappy CRTs that I can't fix and I can't get rid of so I have to be really picky. And of course when someone has a TV listed for free they're not going to hook it up to 240p suite so I can see if the geometry or convergence is wonky. It's all just a crap shoot unless they're nice enough to let you test it before you take it.

Back to the topic at hand. You don't think turning up the G2 voltage and turning down the bias will help the bloom problem?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by ASDR »

Tempest_2084 wrote:
ASDR wrote: - It's not like I have to settle for anything, I was able to fill my house with Sony TVs, Sony PC CRTs and Sony PVMs without spending much or driving for hours
I can generally find CRTs easily enough around here, but the problem is is that I don't want to fill my house with crappy CRTs that I can't fix and I can't get rid of so I have to be really picky. And of course when someone has a TV listed for free they're not going to hook it up to 240p suite so I can see if the geometry or convergence is wonky. It's all just a crap shoot unless they're nice enough to let you test it before you take it.
Yup, same & similar here. I don't even want to ask people if I can try it out if it's free. I generally just take it. I actually prefer sellers that want like 10-15 bucks. People that give things away for free are always 10x harder to deal with. They never ever want to tell you things like the model number or what condition the set is in, slow to respond to messages, zero flexibility with the pickup times etc., because, hey, it's free.

But getting rid of stuff again is quite easy simply because most sellers are so unbelievably, insanely bad at making an ad for a TV. How many 'old TV 10 bucks' ads with a blurry, meaningless picture from the side and some comment like 'worked fine 10 years ago' have you seen? Never show the TV working, let alone with any meaningful content. Never mentioned the one important piece of info, the model number. If you simply title your ad properly ("Sony Trinitron TV KV-xxx 27" Tube/CRT"), include a useful description with links to the manual and maybe a few pictures with video games and whatever test screen from the 240p testsuite looks the least bad, you're ahead of 99.9% of the competition and people will immediately pick it up.
Tempest_2084 wrote: Back to the topic at hand. You don't think turning up the G2 voltage and turning down the bias will help the bloom problem?
You can try since it's easy, but I doubt anything you do will help with that.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

ASDR wrote: You can try since it's easy, but I doubt anything you do will help with that.
Ok so I adjusted the G2 with Brightness and Contrast at 50. I turned it up until I could see all the colors except at 0 (and then went to a black RGB screen and turned it down until those dark retrace lines weren't visible. Here are some pictures (sorry for the bad quality but I think they'll do), do you think I need to turn it down a little? I'm not 100% how dim that first color is supposed to be.
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And you were right, it didn't fix the bloom issue, but at least now I don't have to have the brightness/contrast cranked up all the way in the menu. I wonder why it's so bad on this TV? Maybe that's just how this model is (I verified my Trinitron does not have this issue) or maybe it's because the tube is going? Who knows? At least I have a decent little back up TV until I can find one of the better Trinitron models to replace my current one. BTW what do you think the best 27" Trinitron model is?

Incidentally there's a a buzzing coming from the yoke on this set. I read somewhere that someone fixed this issue by shimming the yoke with popsicle sticks of all things, but they didn't elaborate. I tried lightly pushing various parts of the yoke where I think the buzzing is (seems to be on the back end near the rings) but that didn't do anything. I also tried holding the rings to cushion them but no change there either. Any ideas? It's not horrible (you can't really hear it if there's any sound coming out of the TV) but it's something I'd like to fix if possible while I've got the set open.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

After talking with some people I've determined that my JVC most probably needs a recap. The bloom issue shouldn't be nearly that pronounced. Unfortunately I have no way of recapping it (beyond my skills) so it's just something that I'll have to live with. It's a shame since now that I dialed up the G2 voltage the colors and brightness are much much better. If it wasn't for the bloom issue this would definitely be my main CRT. Of course if some of the caps are already failing it makes me wonder what else is dying on it.

So now I have to decide if I want to keep the JVC and live with the bad bloom (so far with my limited testing it doesn't show up nearly as much as you'd think, but when it does, oh boy...) or keep my Sharp 27SC260 which doesn't have the bloom problem but has blurriness and convergence issues in the corners (which is odd for a curved CRT) and can't have any of its geometry adjusted. I don't have the room to keep both unfortunately.

Ultimately I'd like to just get another Trinitron to have as my backup, but having a curved TV as a backup is kind of nice too.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by nissling »

1 should probably be around 5-7IRE. With a 100cd/m² white light output you should get around 0,13cd/m² at 5IRE with a power law 2.2 EOTF. Old video game consoles are very unreliable when examining displays due to their limited color palette. Even a basic DVD player with DVE will give you a much better idea for how the display acutally performs.

In some cases you can increase the RGB cutoff to get better controls over the shadow details but on many consumer sets you cannot adjust the green channel. Also this requires proper measuring and calibration or else the white balance will never get right.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

nissling wrote: In some cases you can increase the RGB cutoff to get better controls over the shadow details but on many consumer sets you cannot adjust the green channel. Also this requires proper measuring and calibration or else the white balance will never get right.
The JVC does have some limited RGB controls (cutoff for R and B but not G as you mentioned) but I haven't fiddled with those because I didn't think I needed to. The colors are ok now (maybe there's red push, I dont know) but its the bloom issue that needs to be resolved.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by nissling »

Accurate white balance and color reproduction is one of the absolute key factors to a pleasing image. I only use BVMs at the moment but can absolutely appreciate a consumer grade CRT after I've calibrated it with CalMAN. Professional monitors are excellent but are often hyped for the wrong reasons imo.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Blair »

nissling wrote:Accurate white balance and color reproduction is one of the absolute key factors to a pleasing image. I only use BVMs at the moment but can absolutely appreciate a consumer grade CRT after I've calibrated it with CalMAN. Professional monitors are excellent but are often hyped for the wrong reasons imo.
Can any of the new Calibrite ColorChecker devices on amazon be used to calibrate CRTs? or do they need specific (older?) modules of calibration hardware?

(like this)
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by nissling »

It's not really a question of using a specific meter for a specific type of display. Rather it's important that the proper ICC profiles are available for the display you're calibrating, which in this case is crucial since CRT displays have very different Spectral Power Distribution compared to modern displays. All meters come with profiles loaded onto them and as long as you've got a profile for CRTs then you're ready to go. Custom profiles can also be created by using a spectrometer but it is generally speaking for consumer usage unless profiles are missing of course.

The i1D3, which you're referring to, is more than good enough for any calibration outside grading suites and research enviroments. I am however not entirely sure whether or not the Calibrite branded meters work without any hassle when using any other calibration software apart from the included ones. Third party meters are often locked to specific software but since Calibrite nowadays takes care of the i1D3 instead of X-Rite it should be fine. I've only used CalMAN but HCFR, Lightspace and DisplayCal are also available.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

I was playing around with my Sharp 27SC260 and JVC D-Series comparing the bloom issue because I'm going to get rid of one. As it turns out BOTH of them have almost the exact same bloom issue, although it's not quite as bad on the Sharp, but that may be because the image on the screen is wider and it's being pushed off to the side (you can't adjust the width on either of these incidentally). Check out the undulating screen on Gigawing!

http://atariprotos.com/temp/bloom.mov

Not sure which to keep now. The Sharp has some convergence/focus issues in the corners that the JVC doesn't have but as I said I think the bloom is actually worse on the JVC. Both are making me glad I have a Trinitron as my main TV.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by ASDR »

As you get more experienced with CRTs you'll notice more and more issues. As a kid playing on CRTs I never noticed geometry / linearity / convergence issues, but now it's hard to overlook. Same for bloom or that horizontal jitter we've been discussing in the other thread. Most CRTs have these issues. Can even look kinda cool when the screen in DoDonPachi distorts around the bright laser :D

And I know what you mean about keeping the good ones / getting rid of the bad CRTs. The issue is they all have some sort of problem, there's rarely an objective winner, whatever annoys you the least.

Also let me hard disagree on that entire color calibration / white balance thing. I don't think this matters at all to anybody but people that need to create content that needs to look good on screens other that their own. If I snuck into your house and made your screen a bit more yellow every day, would you even notice? Like if the blacks are washed out or the pixel response is crap or the sharpness is fucked or whatever, you'd probably see that immediately, but color calibration? You know those eye saver type filters that make your color temp lower as it gets later in the day? By the end of the day your screen is piss yellow and you probably don't even notice until you put a screen that doesn't have that feature right next to it. Unless there's clearly, obviously something wrong with the colors (clipping/intensity) or white purity etc., don't fuck with these settings and don't buy some expensive calibration device, that's the least issue those aging TVs have.

And yeah, Trinitron > *, flame on :-)
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Tempest_2084 »

ASDR wrote:As you get more experienced with CRTs you'll notice more and more issues. As a kid playing on CRTs I never noticed geometry / linearity / convergence issues, but now it's hard to overlook. Same for bloom or that
So are you saying that this amount of blooming is actually normal for this set?

I wonder how much of it was we just didn't notice and how much was that the components were all new so the sets probably looked better? I can't believe this amount of bloom would have been normal even 20 years ago. Although I remember my parents old RCA having to warm up a bit before the overscan would get to a point where the top of the screen wasn't cut off. :)
ASDR wrote: And yeah, Trinitron > *, flame on :-)
I did test Gigawing on my Trintron and it DOES do the undulating thing, it's just not nearly as bad as the JVC or Sharp sets. Then again I usually have my DC hooked up to my VGA monitor so it isn't an issue.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

nissling wrote:Accurate white balance and color reproduction is one of the absolute key factors to a pleasing image. I only use BVMs at the moment but can absolutely appreciate a consumer grade CRT after I've calibrated it with CalMAN. Professional monitors are excellent but are often hyped for the wrong reasons imo.
I have tried to calibrate consumer TVs and they just refuse to stay at the right temperate on the whole greyscale. Heck, some even lack Bias/Cutoff controls. You either get a good whites while having poor dark greys or vice-versa.
Now, on the PVMs it's a very different story, I can get a good temperature throughout the whole greyscale. The controls and circuitry are just more sophisticated and it really shows why they are considered professional-grade equipement.
Some CRT PC Monitors are also very good at having proper colors.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Einzelherz »

tongshadow wrote:
nissling wrote:Accurate white balance and color reproduction is one of the absolute key factors to a pleasing image. I only use BVMs at the moment but can absolutely appreciate a consumer grade CRT after I've calibrated it with CalMAN. Professional monitors are excellent but are often hyped for the wrong reasons imo.
I have tried to calibrate consumer TVs and they just refuse to stay at the right temperate on the whole greyscale. Heck, some even lack Bias/Cutoff controls. You either get a good whites while having poor dark greys or vice-versa.
Now, on the PVMs it's a very different story, I can get a good temperature throughout the whole greyscale. The controls and circuitry are just more sophisticated and it really shows why they are considered professional-grade equipement.
Some CRT PC Monitors are also very good at having proper colors.
The signal is called Never Twice the Same Color for a reason.

I managed to get a philips CRT to be repeatable at least, so long as I was okay with an error of around 5.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by nissling »

There are no perfect calibrations and you will always make compromises, no matter what grade of equipment you're using. If it's more or less FUBAR, you just have to try your best to move the errors where they are the least noticeable. Often it's better to have less errors in shadows than highlights but it differs greatly depending on monitors.

Also, color temperature is never really a thing when it comes to calibrating displays as it's all about the white balance. Two entirely different white balances can have the exact same color temperature which makes it pretty pointless. You can say that D65 is 6504° Kelvin but not the other way around, as D65 specifies a certain point in the color space whereas a color temperature does not.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

Tinted shadows are indeed the worst, but so are yellowed whites. It's funny how most used monitors I get have yellowed whites, maybe because the blue phosphors wear out quicker?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Fed »

MKL wrote:
ASDR wrote:Everybody, please help:

Image

So 90s Sony TVs here in Europistan often have issues with horizontal centering for NTSC consoles. They got it mostly worked out by the time they got to the X5, but this lovely Sony X1 certainly doesn't shift far enough. Picture is as good as gets with the service menu :(

I'm about to mess with this TV again after not using it for a while, and I wonder if there's anything I can do to improve this while I got it open. I know I can fix the shift at the source on a MiSTer or RaspberryPi and there are shifter boxes available for RGBS/SCART, but can I just fix this in the TV? Is there maybe a calibration pot or even some resistor I can swap or whatever to let me shift more or a different range?

Thanks!
There is a lever switch with three positions (left, center, right) near the rear edge of the main chassis board.
I never realized such a jumper existed, thanks a million times ! I was struggling with my KX-1410QM !
Edit : Turns out the jumper has very little effect on this set, tried all three positions, at least I learnt something today !
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