DVDO EDGE - How it performs

[marseille]

Hey guys,

Do the above the pics about the iscan duo using 240p change my decision at all? It looks like there is still ringing issues present though. How significant or severe are those issues?

Another question I wanted to ask was about the power brick for the EDGE. How big is it / what does it look like? Given what I've read just here, it seems like the power is rather problematic with these units. Is this something I'll have to worry about when purchasing my EDGE?

How likely is it that I will have to replace the PSU to the EDGE that I purchase, and what is a Sinpro and should I be worried / concerned?

[rugdoctor]

my edge has a busted psu. I just use the molex psu that came with my IDE to USB cable and it works. This bypass the internal psu, which was flaky at best.

[cfx]

As I was mentioned and I long ago asked questions in this thread, I'll update and say I never bought anything, but I still want something to deinterlace/double 480i to 480p to use on a CRT so I would prefer RGB or component output rather than HDMI only so I don't have to use yet another device in the chain. It would be used with a JVC DT-V1710CG and possibly a 31kHz-only Nanao arcade monitor, so 240p and 480p supported directly on the JVC and I'm not concerned about 240p on the arcade monitor, so all I need is the best 480i processing I can get, mostly for PS2, and largely for games such as RPGs where lag wouldn't be a big issue. I'm not sure what I'm looking for or if there are changes in what's recommended since as recent posts in this thread suggest it sounds like some processsors haven't aged so well. I've read Fudoh's page numerous times and again recently but also not sure if the overall recommendations there still stand and given my somewhat unique criteria even with the info there I'm not sure what to choose.

[Xyga]

Another question I wanted to ask was about the power brick for the EDGE. How big is it / what does it look like? Given what I've read just here, it seems like the power is rather problematic with these units. Is this something I'll have to worry about when purchasing my EDGE?

How likely is it that I will have to replace the PSU to the EDGE that I purchase, and what is a Sinpro and should I be worried / concerned?

The EDGE is not like the iScan VP series, the PSU is integrated (inside the casing) if it's faulty you just have to buy a new one with the same model number (write down the part number and order it online, easily found).

The Sinpro power bricks again are only for the iScan VP's, and not easily replaceable.

[marseille]

Gotcha. So the EDGE power supplies are easily replaced. good to know. Is the actual power brick decently sized or is it small, compared with the xbox 360 power brick let's say.

Should I worry at all about specific versions of an EDGE? I have an opportunity to buy what's listed as a version 1.0 EDGE. Are there multiple versions that are better in some way or are they really all the same?

[Xyga]

Again there's NO power brick, the power supply is located inside the EDGE.
It's something like a CFM60S050, cannot check with mine as I'm not home.

Regarding the versions all I know is there's the original 'non-green' EDGE, which detects and treats 240p as such (it's the one I have), and the later 'green' version that won't recognize 240p for what it is.
Maybe 1.0 refers to the original, and if not maybe it's the firmware version (which I doubt, dunno if there ever was a v1.0 firmware anyway).

EDIT: uh apparently both the original and green have had v1.0 firmwares, so yeah it could be only the firmware they're talking about.

[marseille]

Gotcha. Sorry, I must have missed that part. Just wanted to make sure I didn't end up with a surprise power adapter I can't fit nicely into my setup.

And thanks for the clarification, firmware should be easy enough to flash to the latest.

[RocketBelt]

I use a VP50 for PS2, Wii, N64 Xbox and Dreamcast, and it's very good with 3D and interlaced material. To be honest it looks better than my Sony CRT TV ever did. The latest firmware allows disabling cadence detection for progressive sources so 480p games are good to go as well.
But 240p 2d graphics look like they've been processed, with light and dark edges where there shouldn't be. It's alright from distance but pretty obvious if you sit close up. So if clean low resolution 2D is important I'd say look elsewhere.

[marseille]

Hmm, it would be more acceptable to me if the 240p quality was decent on the VP50 - but from the sound of it, it's lackluster. As you say, I'll probably stick with trying to get an EDGE.

[BuckoA51]

240p quality is just as lackluster on the Edge, actually more so since you can't add any detail/edge enhancement.

[Xyga]

None of the DVDO's are really great for 240p anyway, only the vp50pro with non-zoomed output and SLG scanlines over it is fine, but any XRGB will do the same and even better.

@Bucko51: DVDO's EE & DE even when working aren't very useful for games anyway, you can barely touch'em otherwise the picture actually gets worse. Similar features on my Sony W6 TV are much more effective in practice.

I share the opinion that the DVDO scalers are completely beaten by the Sony TV's processing, and there are probably other TV brands that do better-than-dvdo too.
Their only use today is in cases one uses a display without the required inputs and on-board features, like a bare PC monitor or digital signage display, or projector, whatever.
The vp50pro has got the 'edge' (punlolol) because of it's uncompromising frequencies tolerance while still mainaining low lag, and the vp30 w/ abt102 for the beautiful 480i deinterlacing.
But that's it, and that's quite the money for very specific qualities not many people will really have a use for.

Those who don't own arcade boards but care about low lag should buy and XRGB-3 with a decent transcoder (component or HDMI) wich I feel has definitely become an overall better solution, especially since the quite convenient 720/1080p/DVI firmware update.
Though it sure is not the best machine for multi-source management and switching...

[BuckoA51]

I still love mine for the picture zooming feature, although it has some ringing (easily masked by adding scanlines) it's very flexible and even with a lot of zoom it still scales the image well, hard to spot inaccuracies even under scrutiny using the 240p test suite. It's great for correcting the AR on the Dreamcast for instance, it's also nice for certain PC games, Machinarium springs to mind as that was a simple flash conversion and doesn't fill the screen well without a little zoom.

If you use the IR utility and have a programmable remote like a Pronto you can create profiles too (like with the Mini). Overall I find myself using it with my XRGB3 more than the XRGB Mini due to slightly less lag (on some systems) and the very flexible picture zoom/pan controls.

Another thing I love is the way it can put 1080p image into 4:3, that's super useful for a lot of old PC games, Unlike the 50 pro it also handles odd PC resolutions like 1400 × 1050 (SXGA+) and 1440x1080. My TV itself just flat out rejects these.

Overall I wouldn't like to be without mine, but it's certainly a luxury rather than a necessity.

[marseille]

Yeah, as mentioned - my only real need for this is the amount of varied inputs for older devices. Infact, I was just thinking...if I could somehow the change the output cable of my N64 to component...I could get away with only having hdmi and component outputs.

That could make things a bit interesting, would anyone have any idea how to do that?

[BuckoA51]

RGB mod your N64 then feed it through a transcoder. Why not wait for the HDMI N64 upgrade? Once you factor in the RGB modification cost and the cost of a transcoder you probably wouldn't need to spend much more.

Always best to use RGB rather than convert to component though, although the difference is minimal (Edge accepts RGB and component on the same inputs as previously discussed, XRGB Mini accepts both but handles RGB better).

[marseille]

Huh. I had no idea such a thing was in the works. You're referring to the UltraHDMI project for Nintendo 64 correct?

That's a good idea, it doesn't seem very clear when it will come out or how easy the installation will be, but it seems worth waiting for.

[marseille]

This is getting off topic now but, question -

Have any of you used a lumagen radiance XE in the context we've been speaking of? Any known issues there?

[Fudoh]

I had a XE for a few years. I wouldn't recommend it for video game setups. The scaling engine is better than DVDO's - much softer and without ringing, but you're still FAR from any XRGB results and if you just want something for 480p+ the Radiance units are too expensive. There are lot small quirks which can drive you nuts on the Lumagen machines. Also far from the "plug'n play" experience the DVDO machines offer.

[marseille]

Sounds like the radiance XE is still overall better than the EDGE, I mean, I wouldn't be doing myself a disservice by choosing the XE over the EDGE. Or am I losing something by not choosing the EDGE.

What kind of quirks have you seen and what if I was able to obtain a radiance XE for under 1500 dollars?

[Fudoh]

As long as 480i is an important signal for you, then you're better off with a DVDO.

You shouldn't disregard a DVDO Edge just because it's not the best in each discipline. It's a VERY VERY good video processor, especially on smaller screens like yours. And if you want superior 240p RGB processing you can easily add a XRGB or marqs' linedoubler later on.

On a Radiance you're throwing money at stuff you don't need (color management).

[marseille]

Thanks for the helpful commentary! It really helps keep a novice like me in check. I'll stick to my guns on getting a DVDO EDGE.

I got really excited when I saw a lumagen radiance XE available on ebay (current price 600$ with 3 days to go). Seeing that it had all those component options, I got really antsy.

[BuckoA51]

Input lag is generally much higher on the Radiance units too (2 frames 32ms+ I believe?)

[Fudoh]

The Radiance was a 2-processor design. FPGA plus Gennum VXP. If you need video deinterlacing (e.g. for 480i) then you get the usual 2-frame delay from the VXP. If you don't then you can disable the VXP along with it's deinterlacing. This way you get down to about 0.5 frames on progressive signals (including 240p).

[BuckoA51]

Oh that's pretty decent then, I suppose if you chained an XRGB3 or similar through it, it would be a pretty nice setup, apart from the high cost that is?

[Fudoh]

tried that. The Radiance is a bit picky when it comes to keeping the output genlocked to weirder refresh rates. I found it to lose the genlock from time to time. I think DVDO's scaling engine does a pretty good job with the XRGB's output. The Radiance is too soft (and sharpening is disabled with game mode settings enabled).

BTW (and totally OT): you know how the Edge fails on most overscan settings to properly scale a scanlined 480p input ? Just a few settings (0 and 10% ?) get it right. DVDO's previous scaling engine (iScan HD et al) can do it properly with all overscan settings. Noticed this recently when I re-got an HD+ to test it's 240p output.

[BuckoA51]

tried that. The Radiance is a bit picky when it comes to keeping the output genlocked to weirder refresh rates. I found it to lose the genlock from time to time.

Ah right, I did intend to try that myself one day, funds permitting, you saved me the bother

BTW (and totally OT): you know how the Edge fails on most overscan settings to properly scale a scanlined 480p input ?

Hmm no I've not noticed that, I regularly use the zoom feature with the XRGB3 and it works great..to my eyes anyway, maybe I'm not as picky but I did test with 240p suite for glitches and it all looked fine.

[Fudoh]

Hmm no I've not noticed that, I regularly use the zoom feature with the XRGB3 and it works great..to my eyes anyway, maybe I'm not as picky but I did test with 240p suite for glitches and it all looked fine.

no glitches, but slightly uneven scaling I would call it - except for certain zoom/overscan settings.

Also - just for reference - my main grief with the Radiance: everything you connect gets downsampled to 4:2:2 right at the start. This makes red details extremely blurry. Especially easy to notice when you have real 480p content and want to upscale it - or even 720p from a 360. Annoying....

If you like to take a look: good VXP chroma processing and scaling (Optoma or Crystalio) versus the Radiance 4:2:2 mess:
http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum/in ... #msg_19070

[Xyga]

Didn't know the HD+ could get the overscanning right at any %.

But it's still got about 2 frames delay, right ? We've mentioned that before I think...

[Fudoh]

But it's still got about 2 frames delay, right ? We've mentioned that before I think...

with 31khz sources you get only 6 or 7ms.

[BuckoA51]

Also - just for reference - my main grief with the Radiance: everything you connect gets downsampled to 4:2:2 right at the start. This makes red details extremely blurry.

Yikes, that's kinda shocking for such an expensive device. From the thread it looks like they tried to fix it, but I guess it failed?

no glitches, but slightly uneven scaling I would call it - except for certain zoom/overscan settings.

I guess I'm not as sensitive to perfectly square pixels as some folks then, I mean I can spot when a scanline looks really uneven (like the Mini LOVES to do) but couldn't see much wrong on the Edge even under scrutiny.

[Xyga]

But it's still got about 2 frames delay, right ? We've mentioned that before I think...

with 31khz sources you get only 6 or 7ms.

Oh that's nice, so would you say it's definitely superior to both the VP series and EDGE as a zoom/pan 'addon' for the classic XRGB series ? (or any other simple linedoubler)

I don't use my VP30 and 50pro much anymore already, except for the zoom/pan features, might as well sell one of the two and get an HD+ then.