DVDO EDGE - How it performs

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Fudoh
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Fudoh »

Yikes, that's kinda shocking for such an expensive device. From the thread it looks like they tried to fix it, but I guess it failed?
we (or they) tried, yes. Probably the FPGA didn't have enough memory to go 4:4:4 right at the beginning. But the problem persists - even in their newest processors.
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Fudoh
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Fudoh »

Oh that's nice, so would you say it's definitely superior to both the VP series and EDGE as a zoom/pan 'addon' for the classic XRGB series ? (or any other simple linedoubler)
I wouldn't jump to such conclusions. You don't get any means of sharpening (no DE/EE settings) and after all you don't get a VGA input, so you have to transcode to YUV first or do a RGBHV to RGBs sync conversion to even hook up a XRGB-3.

BUT: if you see a HD or HD+ (you really don't need the "+" variant) for 100 EUR or so, it's not a bad purchase.
Speaking of it: there's a 89 EUR iScan HD over here on eBay - no bids so far and two days to go... (If anybody needs a proxy for that, feel free to PM me...)
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Xyga
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Xyga »

Well I'm not a huge fan of the vp50pro's DE/EE anyway, but if the scaling quality is inferior to the VP's even without those the correct overscanning might not be such a great tradeof. Guess I've have to see it live to compare.

Also I don't know about the HD's tolerance to off-frequency and resolutions for locked output, if it's VP30-narrow then it's not very useful or mostly for consoles.

The lack of RGBHV input is annoying indeed, I could use my AA 9A60 in the chain, but that's one more AC adapter (don't like to have too many)
Guess I'll give it a try only if it's cheap indeed, thanks.
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Fudoh
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Fudoh »

Well I'm not a huge fan of the vp50pro's DE/EE anyway
it can come in handy. Try a 2D 720p feed from a 360, upscale it to 1080p and apply negative DE and EE. Fantastic.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Xyga »

Yeah I've never tried that before, I should have. :mrgreen:
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marseille
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by marseille »

Do you guys have any suggestions on where to purchase a DVDO EDGE?

I've been checking ebay, and tooling around the avformus.com but all the postings there were either old, invalid, or people that don't accept paypal and also hinting that they couldn't / wouldn't ship to the US.

I've also checked out avsforums.com today, but that seems a bit slow and I think the settings there are weird, I can't exactly see "my posts" or get notified on thread updates. Unless I'm just missing something.

Suggestions? Or should I just be patient.
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Fudoh
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Fudoh »

A little patience maybe.

Picking a DVDO Edge isn't hard. A few weeks and you'll have one. That's really easy compared to other processors out there. Try picking up a CII - will likely cost you a year or more.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by marseille »

Interestingly enough, I did see that model in my research. Looked very interesting! I was going to ask if I should try to get that but I decided to keep with the EDGE.

mmk~ wait I shall.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Stainomo »

Found an issue with my Edge (original none-green)

N64 PAL + modified S-Video cable + Original PAL catridge = Works Great
N64 PAL + modified S-Video cable + Evedrive with PAL ROM = Works Great
N64 PAL + modified S-Videocable + Everdrive with US ROM = Bad image, everything is way too red + there is a red line on the left of the image (about 1/8 of the entire image)

The info-screen of the edge shows 240P NTSC. Probably an issue with it not supporting PAL60 over S-Video? Anyone with ideas?

ps: can't test this setup on another display
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Fudoh
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Fudoh »

Anyone with ideas?
a RGB mod to your N64 will solve your problem.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by RocketBelt »

A US cart on a PAL deck may run at about 63hz. The TV may not handle this.
If you have the option to unlock the frame rate on the edge you might get a picture that way.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Stainomo »

Thanks RocketBelt, Fudoh

Not RGB-modding my N64 yet, will get the Ultra HDMI once it is out! I do have the lock set, will unlock it and see what happens.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by BuckoA51 »

Don't think the HDMI mod will fix the underlying problem. Maybe someone wants to look at putting a dual frequency oscillator in the N64s?
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by telemetry »

Sorry to jump in here -- wanted to clarify something from Fudoh's recent comments about the iScan HD+.
Xyga wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
But it's still got about 2 frames delay, right ? We've mentioned that before I think...
with 31khz sources you get only 6 or 7ms.
I don't use my VP30 and 50pro much anymore already, except for the zoom/pan features, might as well sell one of the two and get an HD+ then.
My understanding (from Fudoh's analyses of each processor) was that the VP30 was an HD+ equivalent:
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de wrote: The VP20 and VP30 were introduced in 2006...In their basic configuration [ed: without ABT102, I presume?] they are using the same processor of the iScan HD+
So my impression would be that the VP30 should have the same lag characteristics as the HD+? Unless this simply isn't born out by...reality.

At any rate, I would be quite pleased if the VP30 happened to have the same 6-7ms behavior for 480p.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Xyga »

The VP30 like the other DVDO adds about 6ms with 480p sources, yes.

Same processor as the HD/+ but apparently not the exact same scaling as Fudoh suggested.
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Fudoh
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Fudoh »

It's been so long, but I *think* the VP30 only let's you achieve that low lag with the ABT102 installed (?).

The HD/HD+ have 6 or 7ms delay for progressive sources.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Xyga »

Actually I don't know if you remember it but I've tried that (with/without ABT102) unfortunately I myself don't even remember the results, and I'm unsure I've tried anything but 240p when I did.
Ack. Did we exchange a few posts or was it PM ? Of course I could try again (but I am soooo lazy today :p )

EDIT: Found ! in this very thread page 19. Well I think that's not all of it as I vaguely remember another conversation...
Anyway I haven't posted any lag figures purely for 480p (VP30 w/out ABT102) si I guess I would have to try it again to make sure.

EDIT2: okay just checked, of course it's 6ms ! :wink:
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telemetry
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by telemetry »

Xyga wrote:EDIT: Found ! in this very thread page 19. Well I think that's not all of it as I vaguely remember another conversation...
Anyway I haven't posted any lag figures purely for 480p (VP30 w/out ABT102) si I guess I would have to try it again to make sure.

EDIT2: okay just checked, of course it's 6ms ! :wink:
Sorry, didn't notice the responses here -- thanks Xyga! I was trying to find the exact same discussion with your results and failing.

Good to hear it's not half bad for 480p.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Xyga »

The life of me I still don't get why I'm still struggling to get the smoothing to look 'right' using the VP50pro's (or EDGE's) EE/DE, when the VP30's neutral sharpness setting (-1) looks a-ok without a fight.

I mean as I had the VP30 hooked up to my setup again I've just fired PS/MMP @720p upscaled to 1080p by the VP30, and smoothing at -1 as I said.
And really VS the 1080p>1080p of the VP50pro/EDGE with EE/DE whatever the values... it looks better, more pleasing and fitting for 'lcd shmupping'.
(reduce the W6's HDMI sharpness a bit over that, like 42~43 and it's a boner)

Either I still don't get the correct way to use the EE/DE, or they're really only efficient with movie material.
(Or trying with that port is asking for too much maybe ?)
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Fudoh »

EDIT2: okay just checked, of course it's 6ms !
thanks for checking!
The life of me I still don't get why I'm still struggling to get the smoothing to look 'right' using the VP50pro's (or EDGE's) EE/DE, when the VP30's neutral sharpness setting (-1) looks a-ok without a fight.
that's because the underlying scaling engines are different. It's much sharper on the Edge and 50Pro as it is on all earlier machines. DVDO used three iterations of their scaling engine. HD/HD+ used the first, VP20/30/50 the second and 50Pro/Edge/Duo the third.
And really VS the 1080p>1080p of the VP50pro/EDGE with EE/DE whatever the values... it looks better, more pleasing and fitting for 'lcd shmupping'.
that's probably right. Unfortunately the opposite is true for any movie material.
Either I still don't get the correct way to use the EE/DE, or they're really only efficient with movie material.
I doubt that there's an universal setting that fits everything. Still I think the 50Pro's EE/DE can help with 2D material compared to the Edge where the functions are disabled in game mode. I can't remember the values I used for 720p 2D material from the 360. I'll check if I get the chance.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Xyga »

Thanks for the input. So that's it. Well I didn't realize the difference in scaling quality so much before, but here it's jumping to my face.

In the case of the 360 shooters it's also game-dependent of course, while PS/MMP are kind of 'obvious' (don't zoom ingame but use the DVDO's zooming instead, then adjust quality), Ketsui is like impossible.
I mean I haven't found any right settings for that one yet, no matter the scaler, because I get bad scaling from the game to begin, with 'ripples' even @100%.
If there's a sweet spot for Ketsui I haven't found it.

Of course I'm doing this because I expect better than what's available in those games's settings, but it's my first actually switching the two DVDO's and realizing I've been wasting my time on the Pro's sliders. ^^"
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Fudoh »

If there's a sweet spot for Ketsui I haven't found it.
you can get one axis right, but not both. That's due to the CPS2's extreme pixel AR (384x224).
Of course I'm doing this because I expect better than what's available in those games's settings, but it's my first actually switching the two DVDO's and realizing I've been wasting my time on the Pro's sliders.
I was able to get 2D 720p from the 360 to look as good on the 50Pro as on the Optoma or CII. That's quite something already. For 480p it's a lost cause though, although applying extreme negative values to 480p content can achieve quite "interesting" looks.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Xyga »

Yup, I gave up on upscaling 480p with the DVDO's as well. The combos w/XRGB's too, but only because I have that W6 and the AA 9A60 (in other circumstances I'm not sure I would ditch the DVDO's).

EDIT: I think I've found the almost-sweetspot overscan setting in Ketsui: 93% (vague memory of that value in another discussion)
That almost completely fixes the vertical axis, which is more essential than horizontal here imho.
But I am under the impression that the horizontal distortion is less dramatic with the console set to 1080p output.

Then while remaining on N.Neighbor: a bit of zooming (overscan from the scaler or TV if that works), and decrease the sharpness to one's liking, using whatever settings available
Far from perfect but still looking better than bilinear/bicubic/lanczos. Sure bicubic smoothes-away all distortion but it's still too blurry for me.
Next step is seeing if I can get better smoothing from the vp50pro than my W6's...
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by RetroGame❤ »

Just a heads up... Mine is for sale over in the trade station: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=55731
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Xyga »

So still to try and make things clearer in my little head:

- with Fine Detail I control the amount of blurring/smoothing I want.
- with Edge Enhancement I control the scaling quality/sharpness.

'That it ? :D

Well, even if I'm wrong in the end I still got to where I wanted today: the right 'slightly smoothed but not muddy' looks needed for PS/MMP.

360:
- 720p output
vp50pro:
- overscan: 11.1%
- cue correction: auto
- FD: -4
- EE: -56

This does look better than the vp30 without outside help (the vp30 can't artificially smooth stuff by itself, it needs a little help from the display/W6).

Next step: the HD~ish ports. :p
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Stainomo »

Using a DVDO Edge with all my consoles + HTPC.

Seems i can't get processing delay below 16ms with pure 1080p60 -> 1080P60 (Xbox One or HTPC). I check using the input delay -.

Gamemode enabled - Output is locked. Anything else which influences delay? Should it change to -6ms when all settings are optimal?
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by BuckoA51 »

What input refresh rate does the Edge report?
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by PascalP »

bumping this tread a bit ;)

I'm looking at getting a DVDO unit to add to a OSSC running in triple line mode.
Is my assumption correct the EDGE adds about 6ms where a VP50pro adds 1-2ms?
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by ZellSF »

PascalP wrote:bumping this tread a bit ;)

I'm looking at getting a DVDO unit to add to a OSSC running in triple line mode.
Is my assumption correct the EDGE adds about 6ms where a VP50pro adds 1-2ms?
No, the Edge and VP50 Pro are both about 6ms.

The Edge however has a bug on some consoles with weird refresh rates where it adds 25ms. I've heard this applies to Nintendo 64, Saturn and PC Engine, but no one has made a comprehensive list yet.

Interlaced modes obviously add more.
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Re: DVDO EDGE - How it performs

Post by Xyga »

EDIT: Zell was faster but here's what i was about to post:

Actually it's to be confirmed that they're all the same but AFAIK the VP20, VP30, VP50, VP50 Pro all add about 6ms to NTSC sources, 8ms to PAL ones.

The EDGE is different as it doesn't seem to have a fixed time, it adds between 8ms and 25ms IIRC, depending on the source.

The VP's however don't accept locked linetripled PAL sources, so they can't do low lag in that particular case (all of them? don't remember as well but likely)
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