DVDO EDGE - How it performs

[spaceape]

Okay thanks !

As for my computer it's a an old laptop running XP SP3... ouch.

Well it's got a PCMCIA slot, so if I can't use my current adapter maybe I can buy an adapter card...

You should be able to use a USB->RS232 adapter and install something like some Prolific drivers for it (http://tinyurl.com/8o64e67). It works for me when i run Audyssey Pro in my home theater. The same adapter also works with my DVDO Duo when i calibrate my projector.

[Xyga]

Well I've been reading stuff about that serial thing for about two hours and it' so cryptic I still don't know if I can use my cable or not.

To make things clear it's in two parts;

USB to RJ45 cable + RJ45 to DB9 adapter (DB9 connector lacks 1 pin, the bottom right)

It's completely chip-less, no IC, no electronics, just wires and connectors.

I'm wondering if stuff like the Prolific or FTDI drivers will be of any use then, because everything I read about those involves an adapter with some built-in IC somewhere.

Can't believe any manufacturer would still impose Serial, even for a device built in the early or mid-2000's, it's so archaic and overly complicated ! I had always hoped I would get around this while grabbing video processors or stuff, but this time there's no escape.

Not sure I will test the lag for off-spec stuff today as I have too many systems that don't work properly because of this.

[Fudoh]

The reason for RS232 is the home-automation stuff, especially in higher-end homecinema setups where systems like Crestron control everything by serial commands.

> USB to RJ45 cable + RJ45 to DB9 adapter (DB9 connector lacks 1 pin, the bottom right)
> It's completely chip-less, no IC, no electronics, just wires and connectors.

no, this certainly won't work. USB to serial converters are active, hence the drivers for the chipset used. I've been using this one in the past: http://www.amazon.de/Digitus-DA-70156-U ... =usb+rs232

[Xyga]

I see, well I'm glad I didn't try anything with what I have here.
(Makes me wonder why the guy whom I bought the vp30 from included it in the box to begin)

I'll give a try to that Digitus then, thanks. ^^

@BuckoA51: sorry you'll have to wait a bit more.

[Fudoh]

Sorry, I should have been clearer: I've been using this Digitus especially on Lumagen units, both for updating and controlling them. Back when the last DVDO FW was released I still had native RS232 on an older notebook, so I've never used the Digitus to update a 50pro - - - not saying that it wouldn't work of course, I just can't confirm it either.

The most important part when trying the update is to set the DVDO and the driver to the same baud rate and hardware config (parity bit etc).

[Xyga]

Ah I see, I suppose there's no reference list of 'working' adapters anywhere... the USBGEAR USBG-232 is only available in the US of course.

I know someone who successfully updated a vp30 with an adapter he bought in Europe, I will ask him the reference.

[Fudoh]

The Digitus uses the chipset recommended by DVDO (FTDI).

[Xyga]

That's good news, I can get one for 13/14€.

Will let you know guys when it's done.

[Xyga]

So I received the dongle... but I failed to notice no serial cable is provided.
Will have to buy one. Cool, another 5-7 days wait.

(The dongle comes with an USB extension cord, which is pretty useless when you consider most people today, before everything, lack a serial cable *facepalm*)

EDIT: Scratch that I can actually connect it directly to the vp. Will update later today.

[Xyga]

"Loading .abt file now..."

Should take 40 minutes... hope it will work on the first try.

I must say the guide on dvdo/abt website is lacking in several areas, especially the windows/port/driver part where their explanation seems to be completely outdated, if you're not used to the many windows driver oddities and tricks to get around issues, you have little hope to succeed.

[Xyga]

Ok vp50pro firmware successfully updated.

Now the lag figures for various sources with locked output.

RGBs input (scart);
. PS1 (pal modded) - 50Hz: 8ms / 60Hz: 6ms
. PS2 (pal modded) - 576i GM1: 8ms / 480i GM1: 6ms
. MD2 (pal modded) - 50Hz: 8ms / 60Hz: 6ms
. Saturn (pal modded) - 50Hz: 8ms / 60Hz: 6ms
. Cave cv1000 pcb (Mushihimesama - 320x240@60.00) - 6ms
. Toaplan2 pcb (Dogyuun - 320x240@59.637405) - 6ms
. Video System pcb (Turbo Force - 320x224@61.31) - 6ms - yes it works

RGBHV input (XRGB-2);
^ Exactly the same figures, but a much better picture quality of course.

I could try more systems (sorry all my Nintendo stuff is currently 'under maintenance') but it's obvious the vp50pro behaves like the vp30 when the output is locked: lag never exceeds 6ms (8ms with PAL stuff).
The range seems to be wider than the vp30's though, since Turbo Force works, I don't have any MVS, Seibu or Irem stuff to try unfortunately, but Fudoh most certainly knows the answer for those.

The only thing that gave me trouble is that damned profile feature, I could never get it to work correctly, whether on manual or auto the vp50pro couldn't follow the frequency changes and often picked the wrong signal (mistook 60Hz for 50Hz and vice-versa).
Why did they have to add that useless thing ? The vp30 doesn't have it and works perfectly by itself, switching alone and getting the right signals. Well, whatever.

One thing is for sure; unless there's a 'fix' somewhere, the EDGE doesn't compare in terms of compatibility and lag.
The vp30+abt102 is a close second in my heart because despite its poorer upscaling I like its rough 'sharpness' setting for a quick and dirty 'pop' in the picture, and the GM2 is still very nice for 480i. And no ringing.
Plus it's totally silent and cool (unlike the EDGE and vp50pro, both produce a lot of heat and a buzzing or faint whistling sound).

[BuckoA51]

Interesting observations, thanks!

Regarding the profile thing, I found I had to set it and store it at least twice, sometimes three times before the VP50 got the message.

How do you find switching between 480i and 240p? I found this took a long time on my VP50, way longer than the Edge.

As for compatibility that's interesting. I tried mine with the usual suspects, Sega Master System and PC Engine via the XRGB3 and it failed just like it did on the Edge. Though I didn't know about the Extron RGB interface trick at the time.

Really kicking myself for letting that 50 pro go now. It's a bit much running a 50 pro and a Edge in tandem but that's what I'd need to do, but hey if the end results good. I'll keep looking out for another one at a reasonable price and thanks again for checking this all out.

[Fudoh]

thing that gave me trouble is that damned profile feature, I could never get it to work correctly, whether on manual or auto the vp50pro couldn't follow the frequency changes and often picked the wrong signal

when used with DVD material I never had any problems with this. Switched flawlessly every single time. Never used it with "not so straight" videogame signals though. On the other hand switching manually between two profiles isn't too hard, is it ? All the resolutions are rememberd per input and per signal, you have to switch a few times before everything's remembered.

Also - there'a bug with the 240p memory. I think it uses the 480i memory or doesn't properly save at all, so using 240p/288p with both 50 and 60Hz sources might cause problems in general.

Plus it's totally silent and cool (unlike the EDGE and vp50pro, both produce a lot of heat and a buzzing or faint whistling sound).

if you plan on keeping the 50Pro, get a silent 120mm fan, put in on top of the processor and power it through the 12V trigger on the back. This way you can control the fan using the 50Pro's menu and and it cools the unit, so the internal fans won't ever switch on again.

[Xyga]

How do you find switching between 480i and 240p? I found this took a long time on my VP50, way longer than the Edge.

I haven't really payed attention to that yet, will check later.

As for compatibility that's interesting. I tried mine with the usual suspects, Sega Master System and PC Engine via the XRGB3 and it failed just like it did on the Edge. Though I didn't know about the Extron RGB interface trick at the time.

Before the firmware update it couldn't even sync a cv1000 board or a 60Hz switched MD2, but now it's like "come on try me!"

But don't get me wrong: I still don't know how far below 60Hz at 'X' resolution it can handle, I only assume it supports a wider range because it just passed everything I own from 59,6Hz to 61,3Hz. IIRC the vp30 wouldn't pass Turbo Force locked, and the EDGE would but strangely interpret it as 480i w/ 8ms lag.

And keep in mind I'm using an XRGB-2 for my combo, but I can check again with an XRGB-3 later if you want.

Really kicking myself for letting that 50 pro go now. It's a bit much running a 50 pro and a Edge in tandem but that's what I'd need to do, but hey if the end results good. I'll keep looking out for another one at a reasonable price and thanks again for checking this all out.

About that I was thinking: how's the non-pro vp50 compared to its brothers ?
I know it's supposed to be similar to the vp30+abt102 with only 1080i deinterlacing added and no real support for 240p, but is the scaling engine still the same as the vp30's or is it like the Pro's and the EDGE's ?

All the resolutions are remembered per input and per signal, you have to switch a few times before everything's remembered.

I'm still not sure I understand this, you mentioned earlier I only need two profiles, but in reality - correct me if I'm wrong - I need to create a profile for each hardware, and two for the ones that switch between 50 and 60Hz like the PS1 & PS2 ?
And I have to try a few times with each before the vp50pro can remember ?

Also - there'a bug with the 240p memory. I think it uses the 480i memory or doesn't properly save at all, so using 240p/288p with both 50 and 60Hz sources might cause problems in general.

My God. Well for everything progressive low-res I'll be using an XRGB wired to the RGBHV input anyway.
I'll have something like the PS2 and GameCube into the RGBs/component inputs.

On the other hand switching manually between two profiles isn't too hard, is it ?

It is ! Especially when it even sometimes gets confused between 50 and 60hz.
The testing with Dragon Blaze (PAL) was hell, same with Wip3out SE (with 50/60Hz selector patch).
Of course I won't be doing this all the time, I bet once I'll get all the profiles I need I will forget about it.

if you plan on keeping the 50Pro, get a silent 120mm fan, put in on top of the processor and power it through the 12V trigger on the back. This way you can control the fan using the 50Pro's menu and and it cools the unit, so the internal fans won't ever switch on again.

Brilliant ! I'll probably keep it so it's a good thing to know. Thanks.

[Fudoh]

The testing with Dragon Blaze (PAL) was hell, same with Wip3out SE (with 50/60Hz selector patch).

but you're not going to use 50Hz on those anyway, so you can easily use a "everything to 60Hz" profile on those. When creating the two profiles set everything to 60Hz on the one and everything to 50Hz on the other. Trying to differentiate within a single output profile won't work.

[BuckoA51]

If only ABT had the forethought to let you rename the profiles!

[RocketBelt]

With regards to the non-pro vp50, it can handle a pal or NTSC n64 properly at 8ms and 6ms, and even an ntsc cart running on a pal console which turns out some odd refresh rate above 60hz.
The scaling engine seems similar, although I never did a proper side by side comparison. I don't have the vp30 and abt102 anymore. Both units do a very nice job with 3d style material. (N64, ps2). I saw some scaling artifacts with 2d graphics on both units under some circumstances. The graphic used to compare ringing on fudoh's page, (the fantasy zone II scoreboard) showed quite faint ringing the same on both units, with my nose to the screen.

The only difference between the vp50 non pro and the vp30 so far is that it outputs 1080p properly to my TV, ( vp30 had to be set to 1918x1020) and you have to turn cadence detection off for progressive sources on the vp50.
I'll test 240p/480i switching on the vp50 if I get the chance.

[Fudoh]

But you're in luck with your sources. Try a NES or SNES on the VP50 and you'll experience what 240p incompatibility really means.

[Xyga]

Does the poor 240p compatibility of the original vp50 also affects compatibility even with an XRGB in-between (combo setup) ?
I'm asking because after updating the Pro's firmware and getting 240p support the overall compatibility for the various input frequencies skyrocketed.

I'm curious about the original vp50's worth as an alternative to the vp30+abt102, because I've noticed those are easier to source and sometimes even cheaper.
When I see people struggling to get a vp30+abt102 I wonder if I can just tell them "don't bother and get a vp50".

Regarding the PQ for 240p on the Pro I forgot to mention earlier that I found the wrongly-handled signal (firmware v1.04 with 240p treated as 480i) to look better than the now-correctly handled signal (v1.05 with proper 240p).
If i didn't need the greatly expanded compatibility I think I would have left things as they were with v1.04

[Fudoh]

I have a hard time answering this in detail - it's just been too long. The VP50 was my processor after I ditched my original Crystalio - MANY years ago. The VP50 won't display anything with a lot of 240p sources. The VP30/ABT102 always displayed something, but with the ABT102 I got the "blinking" issue with some sources and locked output, which I never got with the VP30 without the ABT card.

Regarding the PQ for 240p on the Pro I forgot to mention earlier that I found the wrongly-handled signal (firmware v1.04 with 240p treated as 480i) to look better than the now-correctly handled signal (v1.05 with proper 240p).

I know. The ringing is disgusting. The ringing is pretty much exclusive to one set of lines when used with 480p output (odd or even), so if you use the 50Pro's analogue output to feed a SLG3000, the results are pretty good. Even better with increased scanlines strength. Combined with the proper DE/EE setting, the results are pretty close to a FLI2200. Pictures from a thread more than 3 years ago: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 33#p652433

Right now I don't have the time to test this on the Sony, but if you tested this (50Pro -> SLG -> transcoder -> Sony W6), I'd be more than interested in the results. And I believe it would be pretty nice.

[Xyga]

I have a hard time answering this in detail - it's just been too long. The VP50 was my processor after I ditched my original Crystalio - MANY years ago. The VP50 won't display anything with a lot of 240p sources. The VP30/ABT102 always displayed something, but with the ABT102 I got the "blinking" issue with some sources and locked output, which I never got with the VP30 without the ABT card.

I've never experienced the blinking with vp30+abt102 (actually I did but that was for another reason: bad tv and bad hdmi cable) but rather no picture at all when the source's specs are beyond what the machine can handle (it happened only with the Turbo Force pcb).
I have however never tried the vp30 without the abt102 connected (or I did for a short while years ago, but I didn't really knew what I was doing at the time anyway ^^).
That's on my "things to test" list though.

The ringing is pretty much exclusive to one set of lines when used with 480p output (odd or even), so if you use the 50Pro's analogue output to feed a SLG3000, the results are pretty good. Even better with increased scanlines strength. Combined with the proper DE/EE setting, the results are pretty close to a FLI2200. Pictures from a thread more than 3 years ago: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 33#p652433
Right now I don't have the time to test this on the Sony, but if you tested this (50Pro -> SLG -> transcoder -> Sony W6), I'd be more than interested in the results. And I believe it would be pretty nice.

Interesting. I'll give it a try tomorrow.
What DE/EE values would you recommend ? I've tried slightly negative EE with slightly positive DE as you recommended earlier but I'm having a hard time seeing the good or bad changes to the picture. Maybe I need to do this with some good benchmark games but I don't know which ones to pick (nor on what system but MD & PS1 would be the most convenient for me).

[Fudoh]

I have however never tried the vp30 without the abt102 connected (or I did for a short while years ago, but I didn't really knew what I was doing at the time anyway ^^).

without the ABT you don't get a game mode, but you get proper (and better) 240p handling.

The blinking might be related to the combination with certain displays - I was never able to pinpoint it. PAL NES through composite was such a candidate.

What DE/EE values would you recommend ?

the changes are very subtle unless you do great jumps in the settings....

[Xyga]

without the ABT you don't get a game mode, but you get proper (and better) 240p handling.

Okay I'll try tomorrow as well just for fun.
I wish there was an on/off switch for the ABT102 card. ^^

the changes are very subtle unless you do great jumps in the settings....

Very subtle indeed.
The only other machine I have where you can fine-tune that sort of stuff is the Dune F.
But here the changes are visible even on lower gain, which is actually nice.

[RocketBelt]

But you're in luck with your sources. Try a NES or SNES on the VP50 and you'll experience what 240p incompatibility really means.

Yes, I can only confirm that 240p and 288p works with pal and ntsc n64's on s-video, PS2, and Dreamcast on s-video.
240p\480i switching on Dreamcast using the test suite is the similar to the vp30+abt102, < 2sec one way and < 1\2sec the other.
One interesting thing is that to get a locked frame rate with the n64 you have to turn VCR mode off, whatever that is.
I don't have any other useful sources to try unfortunately.

[Lord of Pirates]

But you're in luck with your sources. Try a NES or SNES on the VP50 and you'll experience what 240p incompatibility really means.

Yes, I can only confirm that 240p and 288p works with pal and ntsc n64's on s-video, PS2, and Dreamcast on s-video.
240p\480i switching on Dreamcast using the test suite is the similar to the vp30+abt102, < 2sec one way and < 1\2sec the other.
One interesting thing is that to get a locked frame rate with the n64 you have to turn VCR mode off, whatever that is.
I don't have any other useful sources to try unfortunately.

VCR mode lets you FF/Rewind (pause too?) with a VCR connected to the processor. I don't know how FF/etc work exactly but the results aren't pretty if you try with VCR mode off.

[Xyga]

50Pro -> SLG -> transcoder -> Sony W6

Okay so as expected that looks really, really nice, the ringing is well-hidden, you have to stick very close to the screen and turn the scanlines off to notice it.
Input lag from a modded PAL MD2 on locked 60Hz output is 8ms.

The only complaint is that overscan/zoom are indeed unusable, as you mentioned it's either 0% or 10%, otherwise it looks ugly.
In comparison a 480p source like an XRGB is handled much better so the wrong scaling/alignment when it happens at other % is almost completely unnoticeable, a 'combo' is still the best option for 240p there.

I don't have time to try try the vp30 without abt102 now, but I'll do it soon.

[Fudoh]

, as you mentioned it's either 0% or 10%, otherwise it looks ugly.

if you use any overscan/zoom function before a SLG device, the scanlines will be misaligned anyway.

Thanks for giving it a try!

[Xyga]

I mostly only use the XRGB's (2 or 3) built-in 'scanlines' anyway.

When I have some other processor hooked up to the W6 with an SLG in-between I let the tv do the overscanning if it's needed.
There's always at least one setting that's okay.

One more thing about the vp50pro on 240p + transcoder: I've notices EE at -100 hides the ringing a bit.

Now about the vp30 without abt102; I found a bit of time to try, and to my surprise the machine freezes the moment I feed it with any 240p signal through the RGBs input.
I need to turn the source off and unplug/replug the vp30 to get it to work again.
Performed a soft reset with no effect.
I have yet to figure what's causing this...

[RocketBelt]

The VP50 non-pro also accepts 240p from the Wii over HDMI using a no-name Wii HDMI dongle.
It fails at 288p though. Using the Wii test suite.

[Xyga]

Update on the vp30 without abt102:

Found that I had to perform a hard reset after removing the abt102, that fixed the freezing issue.

So 240p looks nice, there's a bit of ringing however it's much less pronounced compared to the EDGE's & vp50pro's.
The picture is okay even without scanlines, as long as you don't stick too close to the screen you won't really notice the ringing.

Everything's treated as 480i, and lag is 73ms no matter if the output is locked or not.

Tested with Klonoa US (modded PAL PS1 outputing near-60Hz), and Super Fantasy Zone EU (modded PAL MD2 outputing near-60Hz).

-------------------------

So yeah I will push the tests further later, but so far after trying the vp30/vp30+abt102/non-greenEDGE/vp50pro, here are my personal observations
(No surprises of course my conclusions are pretty much the same as Fudoh's)

As standalone machine.
240p: #1. vp50pro on RGBHV/VGA output + SLG3000, and no overscan/zooming. Picture quality is quite good, but what's really great is the apparent high compatibility to a wide range of low-resolution signals with maintained low-lag on locked output.
480i: #1. vp30+abt102. Game Mode 1 looks awful but at least it's there when you need low-lag on 240p or 480i. Game Mode 2 is still the overall best (best balanced) for pure 480i, essentially because there's no ringing. The Edge without Game Mode looks even better, but the lag is unfortunately too high and noticeable even while playing your average RPG.
480p: #1. vp50pro & EDGE. I haven't tested this much outside of the 'combo with xrgb' use, but I found both to be very pleasant for PS2 480p games, obviously better than the vp30's own upscaling, and even more pleasant than my Sony W6's.
I'll add further comments on that part later.

For a 'combo with older XRGB' use, mostly 240p with scanlines.
#1. vp50pro because of the expanded compatibility, more refined picture quality, and maintained low-lag.
#2. vp30+abt102 as a close second because it does much of what the vp50pro does, just with a little inferior picture quality (though the sharpness setting can bring very pleasant results with a bit of color tweaking) and apparently a little inferior compatibility.
#3. vp30 alone. Same performance as #2 but of course you won't benefit from the abt102's great 480i deinterlacing if that counts.
#4. EDGE non-green. Dead last because even though the uscaling quality is comparable to the vp50pro's, in too many situations the very random behavior regarding lag disqualifies it for fast gaming. And it's not even on par with #1 and #2 for 480i, because of the ringing or too much lag again.

Temporary conclusion: The vp50pro wins, the vp30+abt102 is a close second. I'll add that I like the custom resolution feature available on both the vp30 & vp50pro that allows me to fill my 1600x1200p monitor, as well as the convenient RGBHV/VGA output.
One minus for the vp50pro still; the annoying and bugged 'profiles' feature that's still giving me trouble.

Future testings will include madness pcbs like Seibu SPI (any other nasty hardwares to recommend?), and close-up observations on stuff like motion handling, fine details and transitions, + VS. other processors comparisons.

Sorry to destroy the EDGE in its own thread by the way.
If it didn't have that lag bug I think I would place it second (draw with vp30+abt102).