I don't have an EDGE or a VP50 pro but I have a regular VP50 and I find it doesn't sync to most of my arcade boards,
if it does it has problems with the colors. I don't have much expectation that it would work with something like Seibu SPI
but you could give it a try.
Fudoh wrote:Question: why would you rate the ABT102 in 480i performance over the 50Pro?
It's fading in my memory now, but iirc it's only because of the ringing, otherwise the quality is the same.
(Or did I note even less flicker ? Maybe it was just the GM1 that looked a bit better than the abt102's. Shoot, I should write down all of my observations to make it clear with myself. Please note those are only temporary/incomplete comments. ^^)
Fudoh wrote:
but I found both to be very pleasant for PS2 480p games, obviously better than the vp30's own upscaling, and even more pleasant than my Sony W6's.
NO WAY IN HELL. The Sony's 480p upscaling is gorgeous. Nearly on a Gennum VXP level, while the DVDO's 480p handling is just "dirty".
Well as I said I haven't tested much 480p stuff aside from the xrgb's and a few PS2 titles. Among the latter there's one in particular that looked much better once processed by the VPs: Valkyrie Profile 2 (a.k.a The Aliasing Chapter).
I have to look at several more games and situations before further commenting on that.
On a side note it's really not easy to compare all those with a single display, it takes several hours just for one particular thing you want to try, with the technical hurdles, mistakes and shit. I wish I had two Sony TVs to do real time comparisons. ^^
Especially when it comes to little differences (ringing, scaling) that aren't the most obvious on the first look.
Do you find the Edge to have less ringing on 480i/p than the VP50 pro? Because I couldn't see any difference. I don't notice the ringing at 480p at all to be honest, though I have certainly been surprised at just how good TVs have got at scaling 480p on their own these days. To think the Edge/VP50 used to be considered a really good scaler for 480p at one time.
I'm away from home for a couple of weeks and therefore can't fiddle with all dem machines now.
But from some recent quick tries I'd say they're all quite close for 480p (vp30, EDGE, vp50pro, Sony W6 with transcoder) but I need to do a more thorough comparative test session if I want to 'rank' them.
Then another one for 480i.
I would agree some TVs today can do a pretty good job on 480p and even on 480i, especially The Sony W's.
The VPs can still make a difference in terms of speed/lag, clarity, details, ringing, artifacts, overscan, etc. Not all at once, but there are areas where they're hard to beat (lag!)
All in all it's a fight for little things, considering the prices it might seem overkill to some, but it's definitely not as ridiculous as it can be with audiophile stuff for instance.
At least we can see and feel the slight differences, so let's say we're still in the domain of objectivity as opposed to subjectivity.
I'll share more impressions when I get the chance to do so.
Question to anyone who has an EDGE, does it allow for positioning the screen past the screen edges?
I have a VP50 (non-pro) which I planned to use for multi-screen games, but I need to be able to adjust
the positioning to eliminate the black bar gap between the screens. On the VP50 it doesn't let me adjust
the signal to close the gaps, unless I'm missing something. The IA-100 lets me adjust past the edges.
In the meanwhile I'm using the VGA outputs and adjusting the positioning by separate monitor controls,
but the eventual plan was to hook to a single ultra-widescreen 21:9 LG monitor with dual HDMI picture-by-picture.
you basically want to crop your source image on the sides ?
You should be able to do this (on the VP50 as well), by adjusting the screen and/or image aspect ratio settings in the output section. In general you should always be able to set an incoming source to either touch the screen edges left/right or top/bottom.
But maybe I misunderstood you. A little illustration might help.
Well, if I adjust the aspect ratios so that it is wider then yes, I can get it to touch the edge, but then the picture is the wrong aspect ratio.
If the aspect ratios are set correctly, then it does not let me adjust the horizontal positioning of the screen at all. It just stays at "0" with the adjustment buttons doing nothing.
but your target display doesn't see which AR is set. Let go of the idea of square pixels. That's basically the same thing you're doing when using an anamorphic lens in front of your projector. It's a bit complicated to grab the idea of the seperate screen/display AR functions along with the shifting. You might also have to engage the lbx picture mode instead of 16:9 or 4:3.
I apologize for posting in a year old thread (although, I'm more happy that it's not several years old).
I read through this thread and I was interested by the posts and the content found, but the novice in me can't digest the information provided into a simple yes/no. Since this stuff is expensive, I'll be giving an introduction into what I want, what I've looked at, and what I'm wondering about.
I'm not exactly a purist when it comes to frames and picture, I just wanna play some games : D I've played PS2 and a very light amount of SNES on LCD monitors and I didn't mind the idiosyncrasies present due to advancing technology.
My end-goal really, is to have all my consoles hooked up at one time so that I don't need to switch any wires ever. That way, I'll be able to happily enjoy whatever system I want without fetching and plugging in wires.
I have a SNES, N64, PS2, Wii, 360, PS3, HTPC, BemaniPC, and a cable box. I may bring back my Sega Genesis later. The monitor I'm using is a BenQ RL2460HT.
I've already been down the rabbit hole of AV receivers and converters, I started looking at a multi-functional small box type thing called the "J-Tech Digital JTD-0801 Multi-Functional HDMI Converter with 8 Inputs to 1 HDMI Output" on Amazon. However, this looks kinda lame and not the greatest build quality...there's also a few knockoffs so I wouldn't know which one to choose...and it's really small. Anyways, I was willing to shell out a good amount of money for a AVR with the inputs I wanted. It was tough finding appropriate ones, but then, when I found the one I wanted --- I realized it was entirely too big for my entertainment center. Way too deep, too wide, and to that fact: EVERY av receiver was too deep, too wide, too bulky.
AV receivers wouldn't work. So then somehow I stumbled upon DVDO hardware - the iscan duo. It seemed a bit like a miracle to me. Here's this thing that seems much much smaller, much slimmer, and has enough ports for me to make-do with all my consoles. Of course, I have to do a bit of extra work to work around not having a third component port. That's A-Okay with me though.
The only thing I found out next though was - what I need is discontinued, and has been discontinued for years. I can only find these units for 700+ dollars and almost certainly not new. I did find (somehow) what seems to be called a lumagen radiance-xe which fulfills *all* my requirements and somehow amazingly has four component ports. That however, seems to have retailed for over 4000 dollars, and is extinct/ghost-like with respect to any purchase-possiblity on the internet. I can't find anything anywhere about that unit.
So now, after reading this thread, and coming as far as I have. I know legitimately, the only way to accomplish my goal is to leverage the iscan duo (or the EDGE), as I cannot find any other purchase possibility to fulfill my requirements. I have read many pages, and I have learned of Fudoh's acclaim and credibility on these subjects. Since this is an expensive route, I'd rather suck up defeat before I waste money. I feel my questions are quite similar to another poster here (Cfx), as I said though, I'm not experienced enough to glean an answer for myself.
I just want to be able to enjoy PS2 games and the occasional SNES/N64 game myself, or with a couple friends. I won't be scrutinizing the picture as I don't remember what the picture was like 15 years ago lol. Point is, I want to be able to play the games. I've never complained about bad graphics, and I don't imagine I'd complain about non-blocking picture issues. If I can't move around, or physically can't see where I am going, that's another issue however.
Cfx asked about the difference between the iscan duo and the EDGE. I really like the iscan duo for the extra ports; it's really really nice. it seemed to me from reading here, that the iscan duo did not perform as well as the EDGE even though the manufacturer states the processing quality / aspects / and quality are identical.
I viewed the movie attached to the thread about super mario world on the EDGE GREEN, and how the picture was cut in half and not displaying correctly. Then at the end, game-mode was disabled and the screen positioned correctly but there was a large amount of flicker. I imagine the flicker was caused by the recording equipment used to shoot the video. Am I correct about that assumption on the flickering? Other question too - is this video indicative of the performance one would see using an iscan duo in the same situation?
I plan on connecting the iscan duo in the following manner:
The EDGE has many less input ports and I would not be able to plug in 6 HDMI IN's, meaning that the wii would likely go through the composite port available, and then I would be fully booked with no future expansion on HDMI ports. This is something I don't feel comfortable about.
Clearly, I prefer the iscan duo. The EDGE however, as reported in this thread performs better than the iscan duo. I'm caught in a pickle now, deciding between acquiring an EDGE or an iscan duo.
If the processing capability of the iscan duo allows me to play games in the way I described (since I wouldn't call myself a purist), I would pursue acquiring an iscan duo. So the question I have for you guys is:
Does the iscan duo's ability to handle 240p make it a bad a choice to buy? Given what I stated above, should I really be looking at the EDGE instead? Should I just suck it up and deal with no future ports available?
Thank you all very very much for taking the time to read this post. It's my first post here, and I know it's way too long. I would greatly appreciate any feedback or advice anyone has on this topic. It really would go a long ways.
Original pricing of the units were $800 to $900 for the Edge and $1300 or $1400 for the Duo - just to get that right.
Is there a particular reason why you're looking to a DVDO machine except for the number of inputs ? While the DVDOs are good at a lot of things, they're not particular great at any of them.
The inability of the Edge Green and Duo to process 240p in game mode means you have to deal with a lot more lag by turning the game mode off.
I'd have to agree with Fudoh on this one, much as I love my Edge it's scaling is rather dated and for the systems you're talking about I don't really think you will see any benefit. On my Edge Green I can't get 240p handling working at all (though since I have an XRGB too I haven't spent very long on it), the units 240p handling is pretty awful too, though at least it is low lag (most of the time).
As for why I'm specifically looking at DVDO's, well, it seems to be the only piece of hardware I can find that will take all my inputs and this is important, has a nice form factor. Read "nice" as, the only form factor I've been able to find ever that fits with my stand.
I thought I had finished my search when I found the yamaha 1030, 2030, and 3030 but then I looked at the dimensions -
over 19 inches deep
over 17 inches wide
almost 8 inches tall.
I found out that was waaaaaaaaay big and bulky!
I'm open to suggestion about other ideas, but I'd like to avoid having three separate remotes (plus monitor input select) to control inputs. DVDO is really, just the only thing I've found that meets what I need.
Also - it sounds like from what you're saying the duo does in fact share the same problems as the EDGE GREEN. So, the EDGE itself would handle better.
Oh, I almost forgot to reply on this bit: the component inputs are important. I anticipate myself using my PS2 most often out of these systems. I did not see a component input on the framemeister and I'd rather not have to convert a component input to a hdmi input by adding yet another converter in between. If that makes sense.
The Framemeister got a D-Terminal input on the back. That's component with a different connector.
If you can find an Edge at good price (2nd hand prices here in Europe are around 240 EUR), there's nothing wrong with it.
Insteading of converting your sources you should use their native signals though. In other words: connect your Wii through component and your SNES through RGBs. You could easily add a small component switch to add more component inputs. The component inputs can be used for RGB as well by adding the white sync RCA ports next to them.
Shoot. I meant to edit my post before saying that my stand is about 14 inches deep on top, and 11 inches inside, with it being 37~ inches across. With the monitor being in the center, there's not so much room for a receiver to sit beside it. It would have to rest on top of whatever receiver I would get. Being that every receiver I've found has larger proportions, I figure the monitor resting on top would quite jarring. Especially since most would seem to hang off the edge of the stand.
Interesting, so I would have to acquire a component-to-d-terminal adapter of some kind and plug that into the framemeister. From what I understand that would make the setup involve a framemeister, a component switch, and a hdmi switch. With both switches plugging into the framemeister. The component switch would need to output hdmi somehow. Am I correct in assuming this is the plan?
Could you elaborate on what you mean by the white sync RCA ports? I must be missing a small part here because I don't exactly understand what you mean.
(after thinking a little bit...it seems like you mean to connect the SNES through RGB input from one of those component switches, I'm still a little fuzzy on how one might do that though).
Interesting, so I would have to acquire a component-to-d-terminal adapter of some kind and plug that into the framemeister. From what I understand that would make the setup involve a framemeister, a component switch, and a hdmi switch. With both switches plugging into the framemeister. The component switch would need to output hdmi somehow. Am I correct in assuming this is the plan?
I wouldn't route the HDMI switch into the Framemeister, but the Framemeister into the HDMI switch and from there into the monitor. This way you can put up to two HDMI sources on the Mini for processing and put the ones that don't require processing (360 et al) directly onto the switch.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by the white sync RCA ports? I must be missing a small part here because I don't exactly understand what you mean.
I meant that the Edge's component inputs can be used as RGBs inputs as well by adding a fourth RCA input. If you look at the back of the Edge you'll see two white RCA ports next to the component ones. These are for RGB sync.
Also it has to be said, if you have a PC in the mix there, you'd get better results 9 times out of 10 with a decent emulator than feeding the SNES through an Edge/Duo.
Fudoh wrote:The inability of the Edge Green and Duo to process 240p in game mode means you have to deal with a lot more lag by turning the game mode off.
Don't tell my Duo, I think it hasn't noticed yet ;)
Gamecube via RGB SCART:
PC Engine via RGB SCART:
PS2 via Component:
The Duo's scaling algorithm produces quite a lot of ringing with 240p sources though, so I can't really recommend it.
Would you mind checking it for the input lag problem? Your PC Engine should be fine for this, go into the adjust audio delay and see how far down you can adjust it.
BuckoA51 wrote:Would you mind checking it for the input lag problem? Your PC Engine should be fine for this, go into the adjust audio delay and see how far down you can adjust it.
With the PC engine the lower limit is -25ms when Game mode is on and -75ms when Game mode is off. 1:1 frame rate is enabled, Frame Lock is set to Auto Lock.
With the Cube outputting 240p, the lower limit is just -6ms and I'm too lazy to boot the PS2 again to check it.
Interesting effect, I wonder what difference in the sync signal causes it.
Usually its the difference in vertical sync timings that does it, e.g things that are bang on 59.94 are fine, things that are a little off-spec are not.
The 50 pro is nice, but takes way longer to re-sync after an input resolution change (like the Mini). It also doesn't support so many input resolutions.
You mean when switching from 240p to 480i and backwards ? Didn't notice as I don't meet that situation very often really.
As for the input resolution limit I cannot say I have noticed either, it never refused anything I've thrown at it and so far could always lock the output while maintaining a maximum of 6ms delay.
The VP30 (+abt102) and EDGE (non-Green) in comparison have shown their limits by either refusing to lock some troublesome signals or by showing much higher lag.
Lately I've started experiencing coupling the DISPL with it, which is a 'dumb' linedoubler, and I am surprised to see again that it passes everything.
BUT I don't have what it takes to test its upper and lower limits yet, no super-far-off-60Hz and 'uncommon' resolution pcb's.
I think I could maybe use my soft15khz 'pc' as a substitute...as soon as it's fixed (drives me mad that thing).
Switching from ANY resolution. It was so slow that the old Windows "do you want to keep these new settings... 30 seconds to confirm" thing timed out before I got a picture.
It also won't mix either analogue audio or optical (can't remember which) into HDMI.
BuckoA51 wrote:Switching from ANY resolution. It was so slow that the old Windows "do you want to keep these new settings... 30 seconds to confirm" thing timed out before I got a picture.
Oh...really haven't noticed as pretty much everything I play has a fixed resolution, but I think i understand what you mean by 'slow' as from what I'v experienced switching from one preset to the other is extremely fastidious. If it's the same 'slow' you're talking about when switching live ingame, then it must be very annoying indeed.
It also won't mix either analogue audio or optical (can't remember which) into HDMI.
About that I remember the complaints, and I think I've made a discovery: I've experienced the same trouble with the VP 50 Pro but also with the VP30.
Note that I've been using two Sinpro power bricks alternatively without a care, and you know what ?
It's only with one that I have those issues, using the other the audio always mixes/syncs right away.
I've been suspecting the whole system's performance and stability simply could be affected by a bad power brick.
Also since i've been using only the 'good' Sinpro, the 50 Pro has been much more silent (no buzzing nor cooling fan abuse).
Such a shame that there are no solid and affordable 6V7A PSUs around. I got a HCS 3302 lab power supply, but it's not exactly fun to use.
Threads on the AVS board suggest that the Edge's internal PSUs are now failing as well - but they're relatively easy to replace and the spare isn't expensive.
Fudoh wrote:Such a shame that there are no solid and affordable 6V7A PSUs around. I got a HCS 3302 lab power supply, but it's not exactly fun to use.
Threads on the AVS board suggest that the Edge's internal PSUs are now failing as well - but they're relatively easy to replace and the spare isn't expensive.
Yeah my EDGE's psu is on the verge of death but as you say it's easy to replace.
The Sinpros on the other hand scare me...well I plan to try and fix the failing one (any good threads on the topic?)
