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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:54 pm 


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SavagePencil wrote:

Wait, do the two scroll tests run at different resolutions?


Your first post claimed the grids are also missing the left column. I replied that they do not on mine.

With regard to the scroll tests, if one was set to 256 and the other set to 320, there will be a gap because they don't exactly line up the same. That's a quirk of the Genesis and how it centers the two resolutions slightly different.
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:30 pm 



Joined: 11 Nov 2013
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FBX wrote:
SavagePencil wrote:

Wait, do the two scroll tests run at different resolutions?


Your first post claimed the grids are also missing the left column. I replied that they do not on mine.

With regard to the scroll tests, if one was set to 256 and the other set to 320, there will be a gap because they don't exactly line up the same. That's a quirk of the Genesis and how it centers the two resolutions slightly different.


Yes, the horizontal scroll test and the 320-wide grid are both missing the left column. It's not clear to me whether the vertical scroll test is running at a width of 320 or 256.

I've also replicated the issue using a gscartsw-lite. Other possible sources for this: sync type maybe? The Genesis is an unmodded TMSS model 1.


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:27 am 


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Yes. The Kiki Kai Kai scroll is 256x224
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:37 am 



Joined: 11 Nov 2013
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Artemio wrote:
Yes. The Kiki Kai Kai scroll is 256x224


Aha! Do you know if most games run in 320 or 256?


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:42 am 


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SavagePencil wrote:
Artemio wrote:
Yes. The Kiki Kai Kai scroll is 256x224


Aha! Do you know if most games run in 320 or 256?


It varies. That's why I provided both. SNES ports/multi platform to Genesis usually are in 256 since SNES can't do 320. But you need to have settings for capturing both and check each case.
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:13 am 


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SavagePencil wrote:
...and the 320-wide grid are both missing the left column.


And yet I can see the entire grid on 320 on two different original model 1 Genesis consoles I own (VA2 and VA3). In fact, there's an overscan area that extends beyond the grid itself.

In answer to your question about games and the two res modes, about 25% of the library runs mostly in 256, with the rest running mostly in 320. However, most games will randomly switch modes for stuff like title screens and menus.
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:08 pm 



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FBX: I think the Framemeister and OSSC may be looking for a left edge kind of thing. Do you see any change on an actual CRT?


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:47 pm 


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SavagePencil wrote:
FBX: I think the Framemeister and OSSC may be looking for a left edge kind of thing. Do you see any change on an actual CRT?


CRT would entirely depend on the service menu settings. But since the grid is not cropped by the Genesis, you would always be able to tune it fully into view in theory. I'll have a look at it on my PVM later today.
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:41 pm 



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In a post on forums.nesdev.com, SpiderWaffle wrote:
I think a better idea, that could still include the marginal useful if any -12 IRE $0D, would be to use all of the NES darkest colors alternating with a black bar, so a pluge pattern like this:

| $0D | $0E | $08 | $0E | $09 | $0E | $00 |

Like the Atari 2600, the NES works with color palette entries that are organized roughly as phase and amplitude. Measurement by lidnariq shows these values for colors that can occur outside blanking periods:

  • $0D: -12 IRE
  • Blanking outside sync and burst: 0 IRE by definition
  • $0E, $0F, $1D-$1F, $2E, $2F, $3E, and $3F: 0 IRE
  • $01-$0C: Square wave, high 43 IRE, low -12 IRE, average 15 IRE
  • $00: 43 IRE

I have attached a mock screenshot of my interpretation of SpiderWaffle's request to my reply to SpiderWaffle's post. It consists of 8-pixel-wide columns of colors $01-$0D, where $01 through $0C are blue to red to green to cyan, and $0D (the -12 IRE level) is shown for the purpose of the mockup as hot pink because PC image formats don't go that dark.

Is there demand for a dark color bar test on other platforms?

SpiderWaffle wrote:
The grid on the linearity screen (pressing A again) is BY FAR the best and most useful test pattern. (I believe it's 7x7 black pixel squares with 1 pixel thick lines, which are very good, if not ideal parameters) It could be EVEN BETTER if pressing A again could cycle to remove the 5 circles, as these circles often get in the way, much like an OSM does when trying to scrutinize a white line for calibration, particularly convergence.
(If you wanted to get really fancy, a way to change between just horizontal lines or just vertical lines could be just slightly helpful)
[...]
The "Grid" is so over used, the linearity's grid is so much better, grrr.

The grid in Linearity on the NES version uses strokes 1 pixel wide, unlike the Grid 256x224, Grid 256x239, Grid Scroll Test, and Linearity (with grid) on the Super NES version.

Is there demand for a fine-pitch grid on other platforms?


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:59 pm 



Joined: 11 Nov 2013
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FBX wrote:
SavagePencil wrote:
FBX: I think the Framemeister and OSSC may be looking for a left edge kind of thing. Do you see any change on an actual CRT?


CRT would entirely depend on the service menu settings. But since the grid is not cropped by the Genesis, you would always be able to tune it fully into view in theory. I'll have a look at it on my PVM later today.


FBX: Were you able to test? I'm able to repro on both my CRT and with my capture card. Would be interested to hear if you are getting different results, because the only things left would be the Genesis itself or the SCART cable I'm using.


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:12 pm 



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In this post on NESdev BBS, SpiderWaffle wrote:
One thing that's nice to switch between quickly is the solid color screens, (mostly just all white and all red) and the fine grid. When doing geometry/convergence adjustments(with fine grid since it's best) some can effect purity (which is best to check with all white and all red) and purity adjustments can effect geometry and convergence. So often I find myself checking fine grid, then B, down, down, A to check purity, then B, up, up A, A back to fine grid, make minor adjustment, repeat.

This describes a grid (like a paused Grid Scroll Test but with narrower 1-pixel-wide lines) that alternates with White & RGB Screen when the user presses the A Button. Would anyone else use a test like this?


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:53 pm 



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Any thoughts of adding something like a EIA-1956 resolution chart to the 240p test suite? It's said to let you determine the TV Line count of a monitor (which there's a TON of SD monitors and TV's we simply don't know what their TVL count is). It's also good for evaluating "Distortion (aliasing), image contrast and brightness levels, streaking and ringing". Kinda cool retro video I found on these patterns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCzWsa7l6qo


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:57 pm 


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I did consider it conceptually at first. But game consoles have a limited and we'll defined resolution. The checkerboard and horizontal/vertical lines cover that purpose as well as each platform can do it.
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:58 pm 



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Artemio wrote:
I did consider it conceptually at first. But game consoles have a limited and we'll defined resolution. The checkerboard and horizontal/vertical lines cover that purpose as well as each platform can do it.


Cool. How would you use the checkerboard and/or horizontal/vertical lines to determine the TV Line count of a monitor? (sorry if I missed this in the detailed documentation)

OR, do you mean that because the resolution is determined by the console, that if your monitor/TV goes over a certain TVL count, that if the console itself (it's native resolution?) can't go that high, you can't really use anything loaded from that console to determine TVL count in that instance? (hope that makes sense ;) --- and that makes sense to me...but how did they then use this over 480i broadcasts - yet that chart goes up to 1000 TVL I think?

OR (lol, sorry, really out of my element here and thinking out loud), I found sites which sell the EIA-1956 resolution chart? So is it literally a physical object like a clear overlay you put on top of your monitor and do certain tests with it? (just trying to find some quasi-easy way to determine the TVL count of certain monitors/TV's).


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:11 pm 


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Both things are kind of true:

Dochartaigh wrote:

Cool. How would you use the checkerboard and/or horizontal/vertical lines to determine the TV Line count of a monitor? (sorry if I missed this in the detailed documentation)


For instance if the current resolution is 320x240 if the checkerboard is visible, the set supports 320x240 and can resolve it. Usually no more can be said or done.

Dochartaigh wrote:
OR, do you mean that because the resolution is determined by the console, that if your monitor/TV goes over a certain TVL count, that if the console itself (it's native resolution?) can't go that high, you can't really use anything loaded from that console to determine TVL count in that instance? (hope that makes sense ;) --- and that makes sense to me...but how did they then use this over 480i broadcasts - yet that chart goes up to 1000 TVL I think?


As you might have guessed from the above reply, this is also true. If the TVL goes above 480, and teh console can only do 240 you cannot do anything above that. Same goes for 480p.

That is because it was used for cameras and studio equipment, and in horizontal there is no pixel count in the analogue domain.

Dochartaigh wrote:
OR (lol, sorry, really out of my element here and thinking out loud), I found sites which sell the EIA-1956 resolution chart? So is it literally a physical object like a clear overlay you put on top of your monitor and do certain tests with it? (just trying to find some quasi-easy way to determine the TVL count of certain monitors/TV's).


You placed it infront of the camera and watched the resulting video in a display.
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:49 pm 



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Thanks for explaining that! So I'm back to using a toothpick to keep track of the TV Lines as I count them left to right in a 4:3 ratio width lol.


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:00 pm 


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You could use your PC to output a test pattern like this one (taken from here) to the monitor to be tested *. This is still an informal test though (being dependent on the quality of the unofficial test pattern and of the DAC of your graphics card - or external). I've also read that there is/used to be an easter egg consisting of a bunch of test patterns on some Blu-ray movies released by Sony, don't know if true or not though. In any case, be aware the PS3 and I think most or all blu-ray players have severely limited or non-existent analog out due to some industry limitation non-sense.

* Edit: Testing SD-only monitors would require use of a custom resolution with a horizontal active area of 1000/1200 or so..


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:40 am 



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Stupid question: Sorry if this has been answered already:

Trying to burn the Dreamcast version with no luck and three wasted CDs. Trying to burn version 1.22 and I've tried using both Disc Juggler v6 (trial version), and ImgBurn with the Dreamcast drivers. I've succesfully burned regular game .cdi files with both before and my Dreamcast is in the manufacturing date range to run Mil-CDs but every copy of the suite I burn gives me an "insert game disc" error. Any suggestions or help on where to look next? I'd rather ask for help than waste more CDs. Sorry if this has been asked already and thanks in advance! Does this require a boot disc or something? I feel dumb


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:47 am 


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MoboMogami wrote:
Stupid question: Sorry if this has been answered already:

Trying to burn the Dreamcast version with no luck and three wasted CDs. Trying to burn version 1.22 and I've tried using both Disc Juggler v6 (trial version), and ImgBurn with the Dreamcast drivers. I've succesfully burned regular game .cdi files with both before and my Dreamcast is in the manufacturing date range to run Mil-CDs but every copy of the suite I burn gives me an "insert game disc" error. Any suggestions or help on where to look next? I'd rather ask for help than waste more CDs. Sorry if this has been asked already and thanks in advance! Does this require a boot disc or something? I feel dumb


I just downloaded the zip fiel from the Dreamcast directory at SourceForge (240p-DC-PVR-1.22.zip)

Extracted the 240pPVR.cdi file, and wrote it using imgburn (default without any extra options, I don't know what the Dreamcast drivers are) to a CD-R and it worked just fine.

I am guessing it might be something in your process since you mention the brand of CD-Rs and burner you are using work fine.
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:06 am 



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What are the chances?

  1. Someone owns a Super NES console, Super Game Boy accessory, and EverDrive GB, but no Super EverDrive or SNES PowerPak.
  2. Someone owns a Nintendo GameCube console, Game Boy Player accessory, and EverDrive GB, but no GameCube homebrew device.
  3. Someone wants to see exactly how much a Game Boy (DMG) or Game Boy Pocket suffers from motion blur and STN smear artifacts.

Is it time for a 144p test suite?

Image
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:43 am 


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I'm unironically interested in a 160p test suite, that fits in 256 KB.


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:31 pm 



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If by "160p" you mean Game Boy Advance, you could try the NES suite in PocketNES.

When I announced this elsewhere, nitro2k01 wrote:
One minor nitpick about the interface would be that I'd like to be able to read the about text for an individual test without first entering that test.

How would this be done even on the mainline ports (Genesis, Super NES, etc.)?


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:48 pm 


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PinoBatch wrote:
Is it time for a 144p test suite?


Very interesting =)

PinoBatch wrote:
If by "160p" you mean Game Boy Advance, you could try the NES suite in PocketNES.

When I announced this elsewhere, nitro2k01 wrote:
One minor nitpick about the interface would be that I'd like to be able to read the about text for an individual test without first entering that test.

How would this be done even on the mainline ports (Genesis, Super NES, etc.)?


It would need a text preview of each. Or pressing a different button to select help instead of entering. In some consoles theer are not enough buttons. I honestly don't see why it would be needed though.
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:09 pm 



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Is it possible to get this running under Windows? Also is this just for 240p or will it work with other similar CGA/15.75kHz resolutions? I am hoping to calibrate my Sony Trinitron TV from my Windows PC for use with MAME. If not, what are good alternatives?

My setup is: Windows 7 64bit, this VGA to Component Video Transcoder, and Sony Trinitron WEGA KV-32FS120 TV. I can output true 240p and other native arcade resolutions using crt_emudriver.

Thanks,
- Mike


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:56 pm 



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I asked nitro2k01 what button would be better, and he suggested reassigning Start (Super NES) or Z (Genesis) in menus from always showing the help for the entire suite to showing the document that pertains to a particular test.


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:02 am 


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But what would be the use? It would end up being just confusing and eliminating the general help page.

The wiki is available I'd he wants to familiarize himself. And it is a request by a single use.
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:52 pm 


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yo1dog wrote:
Is it possible to get this running under Windows? Also is this just for 240p or will it work with other similar CGA/15.75kHz resolutions? I am hoping to calibrate my Sony Trinitron TV from my Windows PC for use with MAME. If not, what are good alternatives?

My setup is: Windows 7 64bit, this VGA to Component Video Transcoder, and Sony Trinitron WEGA KV-32FS120 TV. I can output true 240p and other native arcade resolutions using crt_emudriver.


Sorry Mike, hadn't read your message.

You can use an emulator of either version. But you'll be subject to several factors: the emulator interpretation of the video signal to a square pixel display such as a PC (the pixel aspect ratio) and then how that is converted by your setup, which would affect linearity and horizontal resolution of course.

Aside from that, each Arcade PCB emulated by MAME has different timings, which result in different resolutions and capabilities that I honestly don't know how your setup would handle. (i.e. if it adapts to each case or it it uses a general one). In either case, a calibration set up to a specific version of the suite would probably be useless. This because of the prior issues mentioned and also because timings will be different.

When you have an arcade setup will multiple PCBs, you have to calibrate your CRT for each game with its own tests each time you change the PCB on the cabinet. Usually affecting colors, brightness+ contrast and geometry.
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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:57 am 



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I think I've got the Game Boy (mono) port of 240p Test Suite where I want it. Anyone feel like contributing a patch for SGB or GBC support?

Download 144p Test Suite 0.03 ROM and source code
gbdev.gg8.se discussion | nesdev.com discussion


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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:06 am 


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@Artemio

Regrading the out-of-spec white clipping with 1Chip Snes (or other consoles) with the OSSC/Framemeister;
Do you think it will be useful adding a "90 IRE picture inside 100 IRE screen" pattern to look for contrast clipping?
With the grey ramp pattern it is not very visible because the white stripes are thin and to the sides of the screen.

Something like this:
Spoiler: show
Image


Last edited by James-F on Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 240p test suite for DC,PCE,Wii,SNES,GC,MD and SCD
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:29 am 


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James-F wrote:
@Artemio

Regrading the out-of-spec white clipping with 1Chip Snes (or other consoles) with the OSSC/Framemeister;
Do you think it will be useful adding a "90 IRE picture inside 100 IRE screen" pattern to look for contrast clipping?
With the grey ramp pattern it is not very visible because the white stripes are thin and to the sides of the screen.



That sounds like an interesting idea. Have you tried using the Color bars? I know they are also to the side but might be worth checking.

Do you imagine it as a full screen 100 IRE with a rectangle in the middle being 90 IRE? Since there is something quite close under IRE if you swich to the 100-140 range, I added the step you request with inverted colors, and a few steps more to even out intervals. Just as a test. I am assuming you have one at hand to help test it. If not I can modify mine to check. https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4sbuevsiq6yo ... t.zip?dl=0
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